Demon Blades since the change...

[demonik]

It's been mechanically changed with most patches, in point of fact.

really? wow guess I'm wrong. When it was first introduced it use to just remove your energy builder ability and make your auto attacks deal shadow damage and have a chance to build energy didn't know it changed from that. Must of been changed recently because it's function didn't change from the last couple patches i remember. maybe latest patch

[High Marshal Sigismund]

It's all the more funny because no matter how many times they change it, it will either be OP or not worth taking ever unless for a completely arbitrary reason. That's the destiny of this talent.

[Sarkol]

Just remove it. It's a terrible talent that only makes the class even more simplistic than it already is.



Maybe try a class that isn't agility-based and has two weapons with which it's supposed to strike you hard and fast with? Maybe don't ruin the class for people who like pressing Demon's Bite? Can't imagine the day this garbage talent becomes the best in its tier.

How about you stop ruining the class by wanting options taken away, you absolute shitbird? Not sure who you think you are exactly. Spamming Demon's bite is not difficult, fun, or engaging. Maybe Demon Blades is not better, but it IS DIFFERENT. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and Demon Blades changes nothing about the fantasy of the class. In fact, from what i now see, it's more Bursty and furious with Demon Blades.

Many classes have rotation changing options. It's for the better. Just choose what you like, and stop crying about it. People don't have to like what you like. E.g. awful generator spammers.

Infraction: Flaming

[warcraftplayer26]

How about you stop ruining the class by wanting options taken away, you absolute shitbird? Not sure who you think you are exactly. Spamming Demon's bite is not difficult, fun, or engaging. Maybe Demon Blades is not better, but it IS DIFFERENT. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and Demon Blades changes nothing about the fantasy of the class. In fact, from what i now see, it's more Bursty and furious with Demon Blades.

Many classes have rotation changing options. It's for the better. Just choose what you like, and stop crying about it. People don't have to like what you like. E.g. awful generator spammers.

easy there friend no need for such hostility. Just because someone's opinion differs from yours doesn't mean you should get so mad. let's discuss things civil and respect each other plz

[Sarkol]

easy there friend no need for such hostility. Just because someone's opinion differs from yours doesn't mean you should get so mad. let's discuss things civil and respect each other plz

I'm not mad in the slightest. Also, it's hard to respect people with statements such as his. Hard to take opinions like that seriously. 'stop ruining the class' is such a dumb statement on so many levels.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

easy there friend no need for such hostility. Just because someone's opinion differs from yours doesn't mean you should get so mad. let's discuss things civil and respect each other plz

It's really funny how defensive people get on here. He has a hard time grasping the fact that I'm right and it doesn't belong on the class.

'stop ruining the class' is such a dumb statement on so many levels.

Do you also realize you said this statement as well? You are making me laugh hard.

[gcsmith]

No class should have the option to make most of it's dps come from afk... If it was a CD that said for 10 seconds you get the effect, sure.

[Dimzum]

No class should have the option to make most of it's dps come from afk... If it was a CD that said for 10 seconds you get the effect, sure.

If you think most of a DH's dps comes from Demon's Bite (or Demon's Blade in this case) then you haven't played the DH at all.

Even after then Annihlation nerf, it accounts for +50% of my damage and Chaos Strike +25% of my damage. The last 25% is split between VR, FR, Felblade, RotI, Eye Beam, etc.

As Van said, after high enough crit, this talent literally changes nothing.

[Sarkol]

It's really funny how defensive people get on here. He has a hard time grasping the fact that I'm right and it doesn't belong on the class.



Do you also realize you said this statement as well? You are making me laugh hard.

Defensive? I'm not the one crying about a talent on a class i'm interested in. Also, you've given no argument as to why it doesn't belong with the class. Difference being I actually have.

[gcsmith]

If you think most of a DH's dps comes from Demon's Bite (or Demon's Blade in this case) then you haven't played the DH at all.

Even after then Annihlation nerf, it accounts for +50% of my damage and Chaos Strike +25% of my damage. The last 25% is split between VR, FR, Felblade, RotI, Eye Beam, etc.

As Van said, after high enough crit, this talent literally changes nothing.

And all that dps requires our class resources, which you'd generate by being afk...

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Defensive? I'm not the one crying about a talent on a class i'm interested in. Also, you've given no argument as to why it doesn't belong with the class. Difference being I actually have.

I gave an argument. 1 shoddy talent giving a different playstyle that you can achieve if you simply roll a Warrior isn't good design. The talent will never be balanced. Should rogues get a talent that makes them play like a mage?

It flies in the face of their class fantasy design goal. There is no reason for a talent that overlaps with the Warrior playstyle to exist. Let DH be their own unique thing and stop hamstringing the class because you can't deal with pressing Demon's Bite.

[Dimzum]

And all that dps requires our class resources, which you'd generate by being afk...

That's like saying a combat rogue's dps is mostly auto attack and therefore they can afk and top the meters, nvm they have to keep up buffs from combo points right?

Or warriors can afk and do tons of damage since their resource comes from auto attack. Let's not worry that they need to dump rage to actually do anything with it.

Again, for this talent to really start to shine you need enough crit to where you are barely even using Demon's Bite to begin with. Then it starts to become interesting because you might actually start to overflow on fury and have to spend it faster than you were initially getting it. Which means timing buffs better like momentum and demonic.

But you can't really do that if you're afk...

[Sarkol]

I gave an argument. 1 shoddy talent giving a different playstyle that you can achieve if you simply roll a Warrior isn't good design. The talent will never be balanced. Should rogues get a talent that makes them play like a mage?

It flies in the face of their class fantasy design goal. There is no reason for a talent that overlaps with the Warrior playstyle to exist. Let DH be their own unique thing and stop hamstringing the class because you can't deal with pressing Demon's Bite.

I think the idea is you think pressing Demon's Bite is hard? It isn't. The class is tied way too heavily to certain abilities, i.e Chaos Strike. Generating Fury isn't the issue. Spending it is. Also, A Rogue to a Mage is stretching a bit, come on now. Most talents for most class will never be balanced, so it's just a poor argument. If you're in such a hardcore guild whereby you must take the best talents under any circumstance, then you should be willing to play something you don't enjoy. If you aren't, there's zero issue, and it doesn't affect you in any way.

[Vanyali]

Let me reiterate this because people anti-Dblades seem to have skimmed over it:


It changes nothing, and in some ways has and had required a much higher skill cap to use than Dbite. If you thnk Dblades is or has been "lol afk auto win", you're dead wrong and know nothing about how Dblades works.

To cross-post this from the Havoc thread via Kaedis:

"With RPPM, your proc chance is RPPM * (1 + haste%) * TimeSinceLastProcableAttack / 60. The Twinblades have an attack speed of 2.6s, and tend to stagger their attacks. If they are perfectly staggered (one every 1.3 seconds, before haste), that gives (gave) our attacks a 43.3% chance of proccing Demon Blades (this chance is independent of haste, incidentally, since the base 1.3 second TimeSinceLastProcableAttack gets divided by (1 + haste%), factoring that part out of the overall equation).

However, attacks made while on the GCD don't (didn't) count as "procable attacks" for Demon Blades. That means that if an auto-attack occurs during a global, the next auto attack (assuming its not during a global) inherits the time from the first attack, bumping the proc chance to 86.7% for that next auto-attack, since it's now been 2.6 seconds since the last procable attack, instead of the normal 1.3s (note that this percentage stays the same regardless of attack staggering).

The problem comes (came) in when we consume 2 consecutive auto-attacks within a global (or two back-to-back). In this case, the time since the last procable attack is 3.9 seconds, which gives that attack a 130% proc chance. However, DB can't proc twice from a single swing, so the extra 30% is simply wasted. This occurs during the last 0.2 seconds before either hand's swing, assuming they are staggered perfectly. This also translates to a loss of 30% of a DB's damage (around 100% weapon damage) and 7.5 Fury worth of Chaos Strike damage (around 250% weapon damage, though it depends on your crit chance), though the loss can be as high as 73.3% of a DB proc (~900% weapon damage total) if the attacks were not perfectly staggered, maxing out when they are instead perfectly aligned. Regardless of staggering, that deadzone where casting a GCD would result in lost DPS covered precisely 13.3% of the auto-attack cycle, 0.4 seconds before haste, which would necessitate a swing timer tracker to effectively avoid the DPS loss.

The new version by implication no longer has this GCD effect. This means it's at least 15% superior in overall benefit, just from the increased proc rate per attack (50% instead of 43.3%), and also no longer suffers from the potential overcapping of proc chances and the waste this caused."



In short, prior to this build you required a swing timer, a gcd timer, and the ability to track your swings to know when you hit 86.7% so you didn't cover over and cap that. Easy? HA. AFK auto? HA. Dbites is easy. Dbites is just spam the shit until you press Chaos Strike. It's not hard, it's never been hard.

now with Dblades, you don't have to count swing & GCD counter. Now, you just have to make sure that after x attacks (generally, three or four) you better be on the GCD again or you've overcapped. That means if you don't watch your procs and attacks you just failed.. again, not easier than Dbite, where you have the option to stop using it. Dblades has no such option. You didn't realize you had double-procs banked and swung? You just lost a chaos strike. depending on your crit, you just lost 5+ chaos strikes and dropped from first to last. Ezlife.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

The class is tied way too heavily to certain abilities, i.e Chaos Strike.

Then why support a talent that reduces the variety in your rotation? If you take Demon Blades, the percentage that you press Chaos Strike out of all the buttons in your rotation raises, actually. Why not support more diversity in the rotation with Felblade being made baseline and giving Demon's Bite a short cooldown and raising it's fury generated or something.

[TheLimonTree]

Since I'm sure plenty of people here aren't actually in the beta and are just parroting what they've heard about dblades, I'll try making a video comparing dblades and dbite rotations and post it tonight hopefully.

- - - Updated - - -

It flies in the face of their class fantasy design goal. There is no reason for a talent that overlaps with the Warrior playstyle to exist. Let DH be their own unique thing and stop hamstringing the class because you can't deal with pressing Demon's Bite.

Meanwhile in the Spriest world...
Mind Spike

[Sarkol]

Then why support a talent that reduces the variety in your rotation? If you take Demon Blades, the percentage that you press Chaos Strike out of all the buttons in your rotation raises, actually. Why not support more diversity in the rotation with Felblade being made baseline and giving Demon's Bite a short cooldown and raising it's fury generated or something.

As is said above, the complexity arguably goes up. To solve Chaos Strike spam is to modify the class, add new abilities or such. The generator isn't really that important.

[Varlak]

How about you stop ruining the class by wanting options taken away, Just choose what you like, and stop crying about it. People don't have to like what you like. E.g. awful generator spammers.

Infraction: Flaming

problem is that blizzard haven't been able to balances tier since they implented it. the only time time you really have a choice for a tier talent is when they are meaningless.

Like everything else it will be either the best option for this tier at Xilvl and be a part of the cookie cutter no mather if you like it or not. Or it will be underperforming and won't be taken even if you'd like to play your DH that way.

[wordup]

Then why support a talent that reduces the variety in your rotation? If you take Demon Blades, the percentage that you press Chaos Strike out of all the buttons in your rotation raises, actually. Why not support more diversity in the rotation with Felblade being made baseline and giving Demon's Bite a short cooldown and raising it's fury generated or something.

You seem to flip flop far too frequently on your reasoning as to why the talent is bad. Why not instead, consolidate what you actually mean: You don't like it because it impacts diversity.

Stop trying to paint it in a different way. The talent adds relative complexity (albeit, in a significantly different way) just as the other talents do. What spell you lean toward casting in a given global has no bearing on whether or not the talent adds gameplay choices, nor whether or not it dilutes combat to the point you're implying. This talent does not turn it into [insert Warrior related memepost] and in fact plays quite differently to other auto-attack centric resource gen designs. To further iterate upon that, there are swaths of players who dislike Prepared and Momentum as gameplay choices (though, I am not one of them). Those people have no more right to decree that a gameplay style should be removed simply because of a profound dislike for whatever arbitrary reason than you do to state that Demon Blades is fundamentally flawed because of a similar, arbitrary distinction you have decided upon.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

You seem to flip flop far too frequently on your reasoning as to why the talent is bad. Why not instead, consolidate what you actually mean: You don't like it because it impacts diversity.

Stop trying to paint it in a different way. The talent adds relative complexity (albeit, in a significantly different way) just as the other talents do. What spell you lean toward casting in a given global has no bearing on whether or not the talent adds gameplay choices, nor whether or not it dilutes combat to the point you're implying. This talent does not turn it into [insert Warrior related memepost] and in fact plays quite differently to other auto-attack centric resource gen designs. To further iterate upon that, there are swaths of players who dislike Prepared and Momentum as gameplay choices (though, I am not one of them). Those people have no more right to decree that a gameplay style should be removed simply because of a profound dislike for whatever arbitrary reason than you do to state that Demon Blades is fundamentally flawed because of a similar, arbitrary distinction you have decided upon.

So what? I don't think I ever eluded to the fact that I think I am 100% right. I'm just stating my opinion and my desire to see the talent go away. Anything more than that is pointless. We all have arbitrary motivations in regards to Demon Hunter design, that should be obvious. I honestly don't care about diversity as long as I have an interesting playstyle. Something to keep stimulating me. I fear that a build with Demon Blades won't do that for me, so I argue for its removal. Simple as that.