[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Hivey]

I just don't understand people who say the spec has to get nerfed. Why? Because it's near the top in dps? Is enhancement just not allowed to do great dps? Where does it say that?

It almost feels like a lot of shaman players are so used to being so mediocre that they actually fear being a top tier spec. Like...suddenly you're expected to perform, and that scares people.

There is a difference between balancing the class and balancing a single talent.

[Deleted]

I just don't understand people who say the spec has to get nerfed. Why? Because it's near the top in dps? Is enhancement just not allowed to do great dps? Where does it say that?

It almost feels like a lot of shaman players are so used to being so mediocre that they actually fear being a top tier spec. Like...suddenly you're expected to perform, and that scares people.

It's not a question to be or not te be on top DPS. In beta, we see some class top and some of them are considerably better than other (More than 50k difference between them). Enhance could stay on the top dps (if all classes are correctly tuned) but the difference between the worst and the best need to be reduce

[Deleted]

I just don't understand people who say the spec has to get nerfed. Why? Because it's near the top in dps? Is enhancement just not allowed to do great dps? Where does it say that?

It almost feels like a lot of shaman players are so used to being so mediocre that they actually fear being a top tier spec. Like...suddenly you're expected to perform, and that scares people.

I don't say it has to be nerfed...but that's what blizz kept doing to other classes (and also shaman) in my time when I was progress raiding and stuff.
Believe me, if they keep it the way it is I would be happy af. Even though it still has some minor flaws, I enjoyed enhancement the most of all classes in legion and will main one again no matter how they will decide.

[Deleted]

For anyone interested, I've recently posted in public the spreadsheet I've been using to gauge some of the things I've been looking at which you can find here:

Spreadsheet Link!

It obviously assumes averages as is stated in the FAQ and as such some things are weighted higher/lower than they realistically are, but gives a general look at the spec, stat weights, etc.

i do not understand the artifact perk table it seems to say that u do not wonna spent point into elemental healing, spirit healing and spirit of maelstorm but even using relic if you don't do so u will not be able get for example doom vortex

[CParker1987]

i do not understand the artifact perk table it seems to say that u do not wonna spent point into elemental healing, spirit healing and spirit of maelstorm but even using relic if you don't do so u will not be able get for example doom vortex

I willing to bet he meant not at first. Eventually you will have it unlocked but there are much more appealing perks that take priority over the healing aspect just for the vortex.

[nazrakin]

i do not understand the artifact perk table it seems to say that u do not wonna spent point into elemental healing, spirit healing and spirit of maelstorm but even using relic if you don't do so u will not be able get for example doom vortex

Its not saying that, he just didnt bother to model them since they dont have much relevance in a spreadsheet focused on dps.

[CParker1987]

Its not saying that, he just didnt bother to model them since they dont have much relevance in a spreadsheet focused on dps.

Or that... lol

[Advent]

I just don't understand people who say the spec has to get nerfed. Why? Because it's near the top in dps? Is enhancement just not allowed to do great dps? Where does it say that?

It almost feels like a lot of shaman players are so used to being so mediocre that they actually fear being a top tier spec. Like...suddenly you're expected to perform, and that scares people.

I'm not sure that's it. Personally, I've witnessed how Blizzard approaches nerfing extreme outliers. They tend to go overboard, and that makes people like me wary. So of course some are trying to preempt the nerf by stating what they think are the offenders beforehand, possibly so they're not blindsided by it during progression down the line. At least they know what they're getting into.

On another note, how does the artifact work? Does the weapon stay at the same dps each tier? Will you have an opportunity to make it stronger? Ordinarily, you'd find a weapon with higher base damage and equip that, but since that's not an option, what happens?

[wordup]

i do not understand the artifact perk table it seems to say that u do not wonna spent point into elemental healing, spirit healing and spirit of maelstorm but even using relic if you don't do so u will not be able get for example doom vortex

As said by a couple of others, there's no points in them because they haven't been modelled, as none of those traits have an impact on DPS. You can put points in them, they simply won't have an effect, that's why they've been left blank because they aren't something that I thought were relevant, nor really able to model effectively.

- - - Updated - - -

I just don't understand people who say the spec has to get nerfed. Why? Because it's near the top in dps? Is enhancement just not allowed to do great dps? Where does it say that?

It almost feels like a lot of shaman players are so used to being so mediocre that they actually fear being a top tier spec. Like...suddenly you're expected to perform, and that scares people.

I think you need to look at this more objectively. Right now, Enhancement is the best spec in 50-75% of situations by a fairly significant margin, and competitive-to-good in the other 25-50%. This is also compounded by Doomhammer traits being extremely good at the moment in a good number of situations. Classes that historically overperform that much routinely get nerfed, and nerfed very hard. Pre-empting this as the poster above said by being honest about which talents/traits are causing it is far more likely to work out than hoping they won't notice our performance (they will) or that they'll go about a retuning in a reasonable way as opposed to going too far (they won't).

[Coffeh]

I think you need to look at this more objectively. Right now, Enhancement is the best spec in 50-75% of situations by a fairly significant margin, and competitive-to-good in the other 25-50%. This is also compounded by Doomhammer traits being extremely good at the moment in a good number of situations. Classes that historically overperform that much routinely get nerfed, and nerfed very hard. Pre-empting this as the poster above said by being honest about which talents/traits are causing it is far more likely to work out than hoping they won't notice our performance (they will) or that they'll go about a retuning in a reasonable way as opposed to going too far (they won't).

I get what you're saying...and then I think of mages and that reasoning just kind of flies out the window. Maybe enhancement could be the mages of Legion.

[Advent]

I get what you're saying...and then I think of mages and that reasoning just kind of flies out the window. Maybe enhancement could be the mages of Legion.

As interesting as that would be, I think it would be more productive to be realistic about where enhancement will end up.

[Coffeh]

As interesting as that would be, I think it would be more productive to be realistic about where enhancement will end up.

Is anything written on the mmo-champion forums productive?

[wordup]

I get what you're saying...and then I think of mages and that reasoning just kind of flies out the window. Maybe enhancement could be the mages of Legion.

There's a big difference between being ahead by 20%+ of anyone else during extreme periods of unusual circumstances (like right now with ring and short kill times), and being 20%+ of anyone else at all times and during progress.

[BiggestNoob]

After playing enhance for a bit, it definitely feels very strong just like DH did. They've nerfed DH a good amount now and are likely to keep doing it, solely based on what was going on during heroic/mythic dungeons with sustained burst or extremely short duration AoE burst. We need raid testing to know where everything stands and Blizzard hasn't opened that up yet, but DHs weren't at the top in raids because having a bursty AoE CD and having a 30s burst duration on a 5m cooldown makes you look completely broken in dungeons but makes you basically mediocre in raids.

I'm pretty sure enhance is going to get nerfs in the next build or in the next few builds. The burst is pretty insane and frequent (how isn't that a problem in PvP?) even if the spec is incredibly squishy. There's a wave coming to knock down DK, Enhance, and any other specs that are doing well in dungeons (because Celestalon is a genius). They just nerfed Arcane and buffed Fire by an enormous amount.. so yeah.

The last time I was excited about Shaman in a beta it got nerfed so hard that it was mostly useless for an entire expansion. It's going to be sad if that happens again.

[Creatinebrah]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2v7qPg9BkNMCaWcx/

look at the last 3 bosses (eye of azshara), forgot to stop logging after each instance

wtf is that enhancement damage lol??! guy was 109, not 110

had a mythic dungeon geared warrior and he was doing around 300k on halls of valor bosses...but this guy was 109 and he was stomping everything

[BiggestNoob]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2v7qPg9BkNMCaWcx/

look at the last 3 bosses (eye of azshara), forgot to stop logging after each instance

wtf is that enhancement damage lol??! guy was 109, not 110

had a mythic dungeon geared warrior and he was doing around 300k on halls of valor bosses...but this guy was 109 and he was stomping everything

You can't really look at things in normal dungeons because scaling breaks everything.[

[valkhy]

You can't really look at things in normal dungeons because scaling breaks everything.[

True we can't have a real idea cause those datas aren't usefull.

Only thing we can see is that Boulderfist is doing too much damage currently. As strong as Stormstrike (without off-hand), and it doesn't feel good.
We need real difference between our spell (Builder/filler, Spender, Proc shit ect.) and here Boulderfist is all of them currently. Doesn't feel good (or too much feels man).

Even so here the player use Crashing storm and no Tempest so Stormstrike lose some damage behind Boulderfist.
A nerf of his damage could be good (Flat, fair) like 300% to 210% AP damage. Maybe Less (250%).

Other Spell seems really good doing their job.
For me Stormstrike have to be our first source of damage then Lava Lash. It has to be for the spec's flavor.

Thing is we have to wait for the Raid relic to be tested: here is the point Lava Lash and Stormstrike will scale really quickly with them since they're x% of Weapon damage if i'm not wrong. They will scale more than Boulderfist and his AP scaling.

[BiggestNoob]

Thing is we have to wait for the Raid relic to be tested: here is the point Lava Lash and Stormstrike will scale really quickly with them since they're x% of Weapon damage if i'm not wrong. They will scale more than Boulderfist and his AP scaling.

I'm also talking about the level scaling. The 109->110 bump is huge and you don't gain a huge amount of power, so that person could have 790-800 ilvl with good RNG on quest items and with the proper build and a bit of RNG and the 30-40% more DPS they gain from the level scaling in normals can make them look ahead of even much better geared players at 110.

I was doing 350k as DH a few patches ago and some guy in a less bursty build was bursting just as hard at 108. Which was nonsense, because people at 110 with 830 gear running his same build with 70% CR (extremely high luck) were still ~100k behind me in ST, and with the exact same gear I would do 300-600k depending on the kill time. There's a similar issue regarding the damage that tanks take from bosses in that scaling gets higher as you approach 110 and so healers don't scale quite the same as DPS do so they have a lot of trouble healing 110 tanks in normals. It's the reason why if you ding 110 at 760 or less you get fucking destroyed by regular questing mobs, and then once you're up at 800+ you just blow them away, then at like 840 you're at no risk pulling groups of them, but just a couple of levels before that you could pull 3-4 mobs and be at virtually 0 risk.

The way that normal dungeon scaling works is the same way that it works on world mobs. The mob's HP is scaled down based on your level, and then your hits on it to everyone else are effectively scaled up by 1/scale. There are player power growths up to 110, so at certain breakpoints the DPS you do to the scaled down health pool is substantially higher than the same proportion someone at 110 would be doing with even much more gear.

This is why you can see level 102 demon hunters 3-shotting 1400k mobs that take quite a few hits or a lot of gear for a 110 to kill while out questing.

[valkhy]

I think it's intended at 110 that mob get harder to kill, making content less shabby, one shot/instakilling mobs. But maybe the scaling at 110 is overtunned at start or they could take gear level in consideration.

I don't know the answer, only giving ideas here.

We need more raid data when people are at the same stage (level, gear level) to do some comparisons between class & spec. That's true.

We don't need anymore data to say that Boulderfist is overtunned currently and need a nerf (AP ratio for me is the best answer), cause he is so ahead on the other 2 talent (like 50k dps diff Dafuk is that). Maybe uping them a little will be needed if we don't want a hard nerf to Boulderfist.

Truth is nerf is needed. We have to claim it, give some possible ideas so we don't get Hard nerf just before expansion start or prepatch.
Being a top DPS feels good but not with such a disparity.

[nazrakin]

I think it's intended at 110 that mob get harder to kill, making content less shabby, one shot/instakilling mobs. But maybe the scaling at 110 is overtunned at start or they could take gear level in consideration.

I don't know the answer, only giving ideas here.

We need more raid data when people are at the same stage (level, gear level) to do some comparisons between class & spec. That's true.

We don't need anymore data to say that Boulderfist is overtunned currently and need a nerf (AP ratio for me is the best answer), cause he is so ahead on the other 2 talent (like 50k dps diff Dafuk is that). Maybe uping them a little will be needed if we don't want a hard nerf to Boulderfist.

Truth is nerf is needed. We have to claim it, give some possible ideas so we don't get Hard nerf just before expansion start or prepatch.
Being a top DPS feels good but not with such a disparity.

So the way I see Boulderfist is that there are two components to its design. There is the baseline damage + CD that are suppose to be balanced against rockbiter and allow for some free GCDs. And then you have the buff portion which is balanced against Hot Hands and Windsong. Assuming thats correct, I think theres a two part fix that makes sense to me:

1. Put half of its effect into a DOT. So instead of 300% damage and 25MSP up front, you get 150% dmg and 12.5 MSP upfront and then 3 ticks of 50% dmg/4+ MSP. That kinda accomplishes the goal of freeing up GCDs since you wont want to use the second charge until the first has run its entire course, it also keeps pace with the rate at which someone else would gain msp via RB. It does give you the option of burning both your charges to get a quick burst of malestrom if you desperately need it which may be interesting utility to have. The cd could stay where it is.

2. A flat nerf to the buff portion of BF but also a decent buff to the other talents. Wordup's spread sheet suggests that Hot Hands and Windsong are currently only worth ~2-4% (BF is 19%) which seems really low to me. Tuning them all to be ~10% would make the whole row feel better. Personally, I think windsongs CD could stand to be much lower and Hothands could increase FT damage in some way.