Be Honest. How is Legion's Endgame?

[Gilgameshh]

Last time content was too hard was classic Naxx with everything being extremely overtuned (or pre-nerf Archimonde, but this got fixed uber fast) I'm by no means hardcore or a good player, but I've cleared mythic HFC a few months ago and don't find it extremely hard. Also, if Mythic is too hard for you - play heroic or normal. You have options, they were made especially for this. And as you've said yourself - they are practically the same. I still don't know what you expect? 10m raids only? Easier raids? 2 size options? Heroic and normal are flexible.

I've been playing since Vanilla, and honestly comparing pre-WLK raid quality to what we have now makes no sense whatsoever. WLK raiding was great and we had a lot to do, but well... 4 raids consisted of 1-2 rooms, 3 of which had 1 boss, 1 was rehashed. Leaves us with 2 proper, new raids...

I'd rather not have more TotES/EoE-like raids which are just annoying and break continuity during the raid, requiring you to change locations super fast. ToC was considered a bad raid even in WLK, mechanics were mostly fun and engaging, but... 1 room and a cave? We could at least have gotten few different areas with natural obstacles or so...

So yes, all in all, I prefer 4 fresh, long raids, than 6 with 3 being 1 room and 1 rehashed. I most of all liked the TBC raids' model, minus Gruul and Magtheridon, especially the latter, but this isn't coming back, because it broke the rankings and a lot of players whined about it back in the day.

I never said Mythic is new content, but the differences change the fight enough for it to be fresh much longer

I cleared Naxx 40 and can safely say that you didn't need 40 people of equal skill level. The difference in difficulty was that it required twice as many people, but not everyone needed to be as elite as they need to be today. Outside of Karazhan, I enjoyed Naxx 40 the most for raid design. It's too bad it wasn't out for very long as a 40 man.

I want MORE content. Mythic did not do much to keep fights fresh for me and I don't enjoy it whatsoever as an extension of content. Like you, TBC was my favorite in terms of raiding, but I don't see why 12 years later we should expect less content. That content is now broken into four difficulties to serve as "extra content." I recently counted the number of bosses/raids from TBC (even WotLK) and those numbers crush MoP/WoD (didn't write them down but feel free to fact check). They'll likely crush Legion as well with only four raids. I understand that times have changed, but why are we paying the same $15 a month for less content? Why are the expansions $50? Is it unreasonable to expect more content for as much or more money spent on the game? Let's not forget that we're likely going to have only 10-11 dungeons (and yes, they're all going to have unique art, but again: why are we simply expecting quality and not quantity as well?)

My opinion in terms of difficulty: Heroic is too easy and mythic is too difficult. Should I just stop raiding after I clear heroic within a month or less? I was on a small server, and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that 60%+ of the guilds disbanded because of mythic difficulty (not the best server but it has never seen problems like this). I'm sure some of them would have stuck around if 10-man was a thing, but we all stomped through heroic to get to mythic and decided it was a burnout not worth playing. I can't imagine this is a minority complaint, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not going to claim how good or bad Legion end-game will be, but the overall formula for raiding is remaining the same. That's not good news for people like me, but I do hope Blizzard vastly exceeds my expectations.

[PrairieChicken]

Nah, high end 5mans has always been primerily for non-raiders, that's why you could always skip heroics and go straight to raiding, also why 5mans had their own sets in vanilla/tbc/etc. Blizzard are just going back to the old model of treating dungeoneers as well as raiders.

Because dungeons were complete joke in the past. Add higher difficulty and watch the participation drop like flies

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Trying to label the endgame as good or bad on a game in Beta is like saying Donald Trump is a great President even though the elections have not even started.

Beta has all the content included, only tweaks remain.

[Deleted]

Last time content was too hard was classic Naxx with everything being extremely overtuned (or pre-nerf Archimonde, but this got fixed uber fast) I'm by no means hardcore or a good player, but I've cleared mythic HFC a few months ago and don't find it extremely hard. Also, if Mythic is too hard for you - play heroic or normal. You have options, they were made especially for this. And as you've said yourself - they are practically the same. I still don't know what you expect? 10m raids only? Easier raids? 2 size options? Heroic and normal are flexible.

I cleared Naxx 40 and can safely say that you didn't need 40 people of equal skill level. The difference in difficulty was that it required twice as many people, but not everyone needed to be as elite as they need to be today. Outside of Karazhan, I enjoyed Naxx 40 the most for raid design. It's too bad it wasn't out for very long as a 40 man.

I want MORE content. Mythic did not do much to keep fights fresh for me and I don't enjoy it whatsoever as an extension of content. Like you, TBC was my favorite in terms of raiding, but I don't see why 12 years later we should expect less content. That content is now broken into four difficulties to serve as "extra content." I recently counted the number of bosses/raids from TBC (even WotLK) and those numbers crush MoP/WoD (didn't write them down but feel free to fact check). They'll likely crush Legion as well with only four raids. I understand that times have changed, but why are we paying the same $15 a month for less content? Why are the expansions $50? Is it unreasonable to expect more content for as much or more money spent on the game? Let's not forget that we're likely going to have only 10-11 dungeons (and yes, they're all going to have unique art, but again: why are we simply expecting quality and not quantity as well?)

My opinion in terms of difficulty: Heroic is too easy and mythic is too difficult. Should I just stop raiding after I clear heroic within a month or less? I was on a small server, and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that 60%+ of the guilds disbanded because of mythic difficulty (not the best server but it has never seen problems like this). I'm sure some of them would have stuck around if 10-man was a thing, but we all stomped through heroic to get to mythic and decided it was a burnout not worth playing. I can't imagine this is a minority complaint, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not going to claim how good or bad Legion end-game will be, but the overall formula for raiding is remaining the same. That's not good news for people like me, but I do hope Blizzard vastly exceeds my expectations.

The issue isn't really the content being too hard, but the difficulty not being the right one. The current content doesn't challenge your group as it once did, but does challenge each individual of your group on an individual standpoint.

Meaning if something go sour during an attempt, it is more likely to be because someone made a mistake than because your group doesn't have the right strategy. Also, with this design, the only way for your group to tackle a challenge is for each individual to be up for the task at hand : if someone doesn't have enough APM or isn't reactive enough, the only way is to replace that player. When back in the day problems could be solved by talking and altering the strategy.

It is mostly due to how the current battle system is designed : there is a heavy focus on solo play, and as such most of the difficulty of an encounter is currently being carried by the contextual mechanics of any given boss. Therefore there is no global learning curve to the game as there was before the 3.0 patch (the group as a whole lacks the tool to devise a strategy based on the abilities available to the group, as it was usual before the 3.0 patch, now, the game is merely a DPS/HPS/mitigation game), and the content tends to be either too easy or too hard depending on the APM of the individual members from your group.

It is one of the reason wildstar failed. The core gameplay was designed with the same idea in mind, as such, on an gameplay standpoint, it didn't make any differences if you were playing solo, in a group or in a raid. And the difference between a wipe and a down was tighly tied to the APM and reactivity of each individual member from your raid, rather than on the global strategy of your group.

[Deleted]

Beta has all the content included, only tweaks remain.

Some features can be awesome at the end of Beta, but happen to be boring when you do them for a few mounths in live.

It's also hard to judge how well thought is the dungeon and raid progression in a Beta, since you can't do raids on a regular basis.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Some features can be awesome at the end of Beta, but happen to be boring when you do them for a few mounths in live.

It's also hard to judge how well thought is the dungeon and raid progression in a Beta, since you can't do raids on a regular basis.

True, but not impossible. Ultimately, it depends on what your focus is in term of gameplay. I'm not a raider, so it's easier for me to get an idea of how the end-game will be.

[Huggykaze]

I cleared Naxx 40 and can safely say that you didn't need 40 people of equal skill level. The difference in difficulty was that it required twice as many people, but not everyone needed to be as elite as they need to be today. Outside of Karazhan, I enjoyed Naxx 40 the most for raid design. It's too bad it wasn't out for very long as a 40 man.

I want MORE content. Mythic did not do much to keep fights fresh for me and I don't enjoy it whatsoever as an extension of content. Like you, TBC was my favorite in terms of raiding, but I don't see why 12 years later we should expect less content. That content is now broken into four difficulties to serve as "extra content." I recently counted the number of bosses/raids from TBC (even WotLK) and those numbers crush MoP/WoD (didn't write them down but feel free to fact check). They'll likely crush Legion as well with only four raids. I understand that times have changed, but why are we paying the same $15 a month for less content? Why are the expansions $50? Is it unreasonable to expect more content for as much or more money spent on the game? Let's not forget that we're likely going to have only 10-11 dungeons (and yes, they're all going to have unique art, but again: why are we simply expecting quality and not quantity as well?)

My opinion in terms of difficulty: Heroic is too easy and mythic is too difficult. Should I just stop raiding after I clear heroic within a month or less? I was on a small server, and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that 60%+ of the guilds disbanded because of mythic difficulty (not the best server but it has never seen problems like this). I'm sure some of them would have stuck around if 10-man was a thing, but we all stomped through heroic to get to mythic and decided it was a burnout not worth playing. I can't imagine this is a minority complaint, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not going to claim how good or bad Legion end-game will be, but the overall formula for raiding is remaining the same. That's not good news for people like me, but I do hope Blizzard vastly exceeds my expectations.

We're paying for higher quality content. WoD might have lacked in numbers, but you can't say raids or dungeons weren't the best so far. Even Tanaan wasn't bad quality-wise - it lacked activities, but I've enjoyed rare hunt or objectives for quite a long time, and I'm not big fan of outdoor stuff anyway - hated Argent Tournament for example. Quantity and quality rarely go in pair It's called luxury and a game is not supposed to be one.

More bosses isn't exactly better. Sure we could have 10 additional bosses, but wouldn't they be too simple? Or re-hash of other encounters? HFC feels quite unique and I'm sure that just designing these fights took a lot of time. I'd rather have 10 top quality bosses, than 20 mediocre encounters :P

You also keep forgetting, that 7-8 years ago 15$ could buy you much more than nowadays, so economics also play part.

Well, sad to hear this and I agree that difference between HC and M is a bit too wide, but it should by no means be closed by making Mythic easier. In HFC's case, I'd just make Gorefiend a bit easier, as it's the biggest roadblock there, with next 3 or 4 bosses being quite easy in comparison. HC should last much longer, but Mythic should stay as it is, if you cba progressing because it's too hard, then... well... git gud... Or take a break, game has to get progressively harder.

People like you will have Mythic+ to progress if you find Mythic raiding too hard (you can virtually faceroll first 10 bosses in HFC now, with 0 experience and mediocre skill level) :P

[nazrakin]

I cleared Naxx 40 and can safely say that you didn't need 40 people of equal skill level. The difference in difficulty was that it required twice as many people, but not everyone needed to be as elite as they need to be today. Outside of Karazhan, I enjoyed Naxx 40 the most for raid design. It's too bad it wasn't out for very long as a 40 man.

I want MORE content. Mythic did not do much to keep fights fresh for me and I don't enjoy it whatsoever as an extension of content. Like you, TBC was my favorite in terms of raiding, but I don't see why 12 years later we should expect less content. That content is now broken into four difficulties to serve as "extra content." I recently counted the number of bosses/raids from TBC (even WotLK) and those numbers crush MoP/WoD (didn't write them down but feel free to fact check). They'll likely crush Legion as well with only four raids. I understand that times have changed, but why are we paying the same $15 a month for less content? Why are the expansions $50? Is it unreasonable to expect more content for as much or more money spent on the game? Let's not forget that we're likely going to have only 10-11 dungeons (and yes, they're all going to have unique art, but again: why are we simply expecting quality and not quantity as well?)

My opinion in terms of difficulty: Heroic is too easy and mythic is too difficult. Should I just stop raiding after I clear heroic within a month or less? I was on a small server, and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that 60%+ of the guilds disbanded because of mythic difficulty (not the best server but it has never seen problems like this). I'm sure some of them would have stuck around if 10-man was a thing, but we all stomped through heroic to get to mythic and decided it was a burnout not worth playing. I can't imagine this is a minority complaint, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not going to claim how good or bad Legion end-game will be, but the overall formula for raiding is remaining the same. That's not good news for people like me, but I do hope Blizzard vastly exceeds my expectations.

By my count -

TBC - 51 bosses
Wrath - 54
Cata - 31
MoP - 48
Wod - 35

Though I'd DQ all of Naxx and Ony from Wrath since those were literally just copy/paste vanilla raids. Which means it really only had 38 bosses that were unique to that expansion.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Its good. If they follow it up with patches it will stay good. If it is like WoD an it just ends up being next to nothing for 2 years outside of a raid or two along with a zone that was suppose to be in at launch than it won't.

[Ursiel]

End game at launch looks good. What will matter is what they do with the content patches afterwards. If they try to pull another "lol twitter patch gr8 content!" and then the last tier again? It'll suck.

[Deleted]

End game at launch looks strong, what with 5man's being more desirable than ever, world quests continuing to give you something to shoot for. I only hope they maintain this throughout the expansion, but so far, end game seems to be the forefront of their design choices, it's the one thing I've tested I've actually felt excited to go live, my main spec isn't living up to my standards sadly.

[RedGamer030]

Beta has all the content included, only tweaks remain.

So did the Warlords of Draenor Beta and people thought the endgame was good.

[Fojos]

You won't find a lot of honesty in these forums. Most of the people in here would cut their dick off if it meant they could defend Blizzard.

I would say I see the opposite more often on these forums. O.o