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  1. #1541
    I've been messing around trying a BM on the beta, I've tried quite a few of the tanks now, one thing that I was wondering is AoE tanking survivability. I've had difficultly taking on 4 - 5 or more mobs compared to a DK or Warrior. I was wondering how you guys are finding AoE tanking. I know Bay was saying you can game the orbs, but I have not had all that great success with that. Is there anyway to game them besides, eye of the tiger? Once I get low it seems like more of a downward spiral unless I get lucky and have 3 orbs by then for harm. I had an especially hard time on the staff quest trying to do the packs leading up to & the fel reaper at Chen.

    Also was wondering if special attacks can be avoided with the staff skill or just auto attacks?

  2. #1542
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    I've been messing around trying a BM on the beta, I've tried quite a few of the tanks now, one thing that I was wondering is AoE tanking survivability. I've had difficultly taking on 4 - 5 or more mobs compared to a DK or Warrior. I was wondering how you guys are finding AoE tanking. I know Bay was saying you can game the orbs, but I have not had all that great success with that. Is there anyway to game them besides, eye of the tiger? Once I get low it seems like more of a downward spiral unless I get lucky and have 3 orbs by then for harm. I had an especially hard time on the staff quest trying to do the packs leading up to & the fel reaper at Chen.

    Also was wondering if special attacks can be avoided with the staff skill or just auto attacks?
    Do you have the artifact perk Obstinate Determination yet? That is fully necessary to do any orb gaming, since it has no ICD. With it, when you drop below 35%, you eat the orb it just generated to go above 35%, then take some hits to drop below 35% spawning another orb. Repeat forever. As long as you aren't taking too crazy damage or heavily spiky damage you can theoretically "live forever". Without Obstinate Determination honestly the options you have make things feel very different and a lot worse, hard to judge things without it.

  3. #1543
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    Also was wondering if special attacks can be avoided with the staff skill or just auto attacks?
    Any attack that can be dodged/parried already can be made to miss with Exploding Keg.

    That includes all auto attacks, some boss abilities, sometimes physical-based aoe's, sometimes magic-based attacks, all player melee attacks, all pet melee attacks, and even some charge-type things.

  4. #1544
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    Any attack that can be dodged/parried already can be made to miss with Exploding Keg.

    That includes all auto attacks, some boss abilities, sometimes physical-based aoe's, sometimes magic-based attacks, all player melee attacks, all pet melee attacks, and even some charge-type things.
    Ah ok, cuz in the final boss video bae made it seem like it was only Auto attacks. And I was thinking it has to be more than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    Do you have the artifact perk Obstinate Determination yet? That is fully necessary to do any orb gaming, since it has no ICD. With it, when you drop below 35%, you eat the orb it just generated to go above 35%, then take some hits to drop below 35% spawning another orb. Repeat forever. As long as you aren't taking too crazy damage or heavily spiky damage you can theoretically "live forever". Without Obstinate Determination honestly the options you have make things feel very different and a lot worse, hard to judge things without it.

    Nope I don't have that yet so I guess that would make a lot of sense why I was having a more difficult time than I expected. I just thought the monk staff Quest was a lot more difficult than the other tank artifact Quest because I had very little trouble with any of the others except the druid, and that was only one mob and due to forgetting about one of his abilities.

  5. #1545
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    Ah ok, cuz in the final boss video bae made it seem like it was only Auto attacks. And I was thinking it has to be more than that.
    It's best not to watch a single one of his uploads, in my opinion, as he only offers the very vaguest overview to bait another subscriber. He doesn't really care about a thorough analysis or whatever spec he's playing.

    Look for the live streamers or mythic dungeon clear videos.

  6. #1546
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    It's best not to watch a single one of his uploads, in my opinion, as he only offers the very vaguest overview to bait another subscriber. He doesn't really care about a thorough analysis or whatever spec he's playing.

    Look for the live streamers or mythic dungeon clear videos.

    Well I have seen a lot of hate so far over the ability, and I haven't seen anybody else putting out beta videos explaining specs, it really bugs me when someone bashes another person just trying to make a living when the guy is not purposely trying to mislead or give false information. I appreciate the time and effort he puts into his videos. The streamers are difficult to follow I mean go look on YouTube for monk brewmaster or Legion final boss is the only video out there for like the last 6 months.

    A few things on streamers. I very much like them when. .... they are not sporadic with their videos. I think the worst thing is normally you have to watch their stream Live, and these guys normally streaming starting way late at night. I get up for work 4:30 est, like a lot of shop workers do. It's rare that I go to someone's twitch page and they have recent contact to watch on demand. And I have yet to see one do a video where they break down the class and go through the intricacies and how it works like Final Boss does. Most of the time streamers are mainly concerned about running the raid they are in. They don't like to answer a lot of questions because they get so many all the time, which is understandable. I mean if you have any good suggestions I'd like to hear them.

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    Bay probably just made a mistake I highly doubt it was intentional or because he wanted to be lazy and get free ride.

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    You're also the first person I've ever seen on MMO-Champion That was trash-talking Bay. Most everyone I've ever seen like the guy, and refers to his videos in a positive way.
    Last edited by Valkaneer; 2016-06-13 at 03:06 PM.

  7. #1547
    Honestly, any person doing videos on every spec in the game is going to have a pretty mediocre overall understanding of how things work, purely because it takes a long time investing in a spec to really understand the full workings of how things actually play out. The positives of FinalBoss are that he talks to other people who know the spec better to get a more solid idea. The negatives are that he goes into too much detail for things that he doesn't understand in that much detail. Every video I have watched of his has had multiple errors (which is understandable, I watch them for the overview not for factual accuracy), some oversight, and failure to understand how certain things would play together in the real world. For example, in his BrM video he seems to have no idea how the math of Ox Orbs works, or how the talent Gift of the Mists works, despite the fact that all of the math for it was clearly spelled out by Celestalon in the thread he references in the video. Again, fair enough not everyone is a math person, but he certainly didn't help anyone understand these (actually very simple math wise) abilities in his video. It also bothers me when he does entire videos on the state of something that is obviously unintended and will be changed, because the video will be quickly worthless. Like his Fury war video, he says using Raging Blow is currently worthless and basically ignores it when talking about the class, but there is no way it is going live in that state.

    Bit of an odd tangent, but been meaning to mention this for a while since literally every youtuber doing class videos has many mistakes, errors, and oversights in their videos. Which is to be expected when trying to learn ~36 specs in a month or two enough to make a video on. Watch these class guides if you want to see what abilities and talents classes have and how they work at a base level, but DO NOT watch these all encompasing youtubers to get any real indication of how something functions or what actual mechanics are. You need to find a streamer who is much more dedicated to that class at a high end for that.

  8. #1548
    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    Honestly, any person doing videos on every spec in the game is going to have a pretty mediocre overall understanding of how things work, purely because it takes a long time investing in a spec to really understand the full workings of how things actually play out. The positives of FinalBoss are that he talks to other people who know the spec better to get a more solid idea. The negatives are that he goes into too much detail for things that he doesn't understand in that much detail. Every video I have watched of his has had multiple errors (which is understandable, I watch them for the overview not for factual accuracy), some oversight, and failure to understand how certain things would play together in the real world. For example, in his BrM video he seems to have no idea how the math of Ox Orbs works, or how the talent Gift of the Mists works, despite the fact that all of the math for it was clearly spelled out by Celestalon in the thread he references in the video. Again, fair enough not everyone is a math person, but he certainly didn't help anyone understand these (actually very simple math wise) abilities in his video. It also bothers me when he does entire videos on the state of something that is obviously unintended and will be changed, because the video will be quickly worthless. Like his Fury war video, he says using Raging Blow is currently worthless and basically ignores it when talking about the class, but there is no way it is going live in that state.

    Bit of an odd tangent, but been meaning to mention this for a while since literally every youtuber doing class videos has many mistakes, errors, and oversights in their videos. Which is to be expected when trying to learn ~36 specs in a month or two enough to make a video on. Watch these class guides if you want to see what abilities and talents classes have and how they work at a base level, but DO NOT watch these all encompasing youtubers to get any real indication of how something functions or what actual mechanics are. You need to find a streamer who is much more dedicated to that class at a high end for that.

    I agree that's a fair assessment it's just difficult to watch the streamers because of the time of day they normally stream and the lack of on demand videos that I can watch when I can watch them. If anyone knows of any streamers that do I'd be more than happy to check them out. Mean for example a week or two ago I was trying to look at a streamers twitch stream that was suggested and all the on demand videos he had was old and outdated. And I agree on Final Boss should be viewed I kind of put him in the same category that I would put Maybe ask mr. Robot. I certainly don't expect hardcore Theory crafting out of him unless if he has an actual Theory crafter in one of his videos that's actually doing the explaining. I really don't even expect that he has thre rotations fully correct or optimal. Which is why I came here to ask the question.

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    I normally take what I can from the video and try to figure out what I can in game for how things actually work

  9. #1549
    I read all of Celestalon's posts and I'm still confused as to what they are doing.

    I give up lol

  10. #1550
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampere View Post
    I read all of Celestalon's posts and I'm still confused as to what they are doing.

    I give up lol
    The way I understand it:

    The Dungeon Journal will not say "Tanks: use Active Mitigation during this cast to avoid getting knocked back", but instead "Tanks: use Ironskin Brew during this cast to avoid getting knocked back". When you're a warrior it'll say "use Shield Block during..."

    I also think you'll get a buff or sth. during a bossfight when you'll need your AM, or at least I dimly remember something along those lines from a DK thread. Maybe they've changed their minds on that though.

  11. #1551
    And so much for staking the binary AM check vampire.

  12. #1552
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampere View Post
    I read all of Celestalon's posts and I'm still confused as to what they are doing.

    I give up lol
    It looks like binary AM checks will remain but the dungeon journal will just say "death strike" instead of active mitigation for example, specific to each spec.

  13. #1553
    So why does everyone hate Exploding Keg so much if you can dodge specials? Now it's been a while since I got into this, but does a crit still over ride a dodge?
    Last edited by Babylonius; 2016-06-14 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Don't engage the trolls

  14. #1554
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post

    So why does everyone hate Exploding Keg so much if you can dodge specials? Now it's been a while since I got into this, but does a crit still over ride a dodge?
    Most of the hate was from before when it made only the next attack miss, which combined with the travel time was hard to get definitive use out of. Now, with 3 seconds of miss time, it is much better (a very recent change). A lot of the current issue people have with it is that they think it will be changed to only work on melee hits and not specials, though I still think it would be good even then. As it currently works on anything that can be dodged, it seems fine since it is easy enough for them to code abilites to be unable to miss if they really want to. As far as crit and dodge, you would have to test it in PvP since mobs aren't able to crit tanks, so not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saiyoran View Post
    It looks like binary AM checks will remain but the dungeon journal will just say "death strike" instead of active mitigation for example, specific to each spec.
    God I hate binary AM checks, they go entirely against the spirit of AM. Basically means you don't use your mitigation when you need to mitigate something, but instead to counter a specific mechanic no matter your current status. It would be like if healers had to use Flash Heal to disspel debuffs, just clunky and not the intended use of the ability. I would prefer they gave tanks some kind of random ability called "Prepare" or something that you have to use to avoid what are currently AM checks, functions like disspels or interrupts in that you have to react by using a thing to have a bad outcome not happen, but at least then the thing would be specifically for that purpose.

    Or just, you know, make the ability hit really hard without AM up so you want to mitigate it so you don't die. But I guess in the past it was harder with different tank designs.

  15. #1555
    Quote Originally Posted by Saiyoran View Post
    It looks like binary AM checks will remain but the dungeon journal will just say "death strike" instead of active mitigation for example, specific to each spec.
    Yeah I guess, but that means the abilities still have an AM flag and it's just hidden to players now. It's like when they removed passives from the spellbook in 6.0

    Sigh

    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    God I hate binary AM checks, they go entirely against the spirit of AM. Basically means you don't use your mitigation when you need to mitigate something, but instead to counter a specific mechanic no matter your current status. It would be like if healers had to use Flash Heal to disspel debuffs, just clunky and not the intended use of the ability. I would prefer they gave tanks some kind of random ability called "Prepare" or something that you have to use to avoid what are currently AM checks, functions like disspels or interrupts in that you have to react by using a thing to have a bad outcome not happen, but at least then the thing would be specifically for that purpose.

    Or just, you know, make the ability hit really hard without AM up so you want to mitigate it so you don't die. But I guess in the past it was harder with different tank designs.
    Yeah they are pretty terrible design, but the devs seem to like them

  16. #1556
    Ya know it's funny. My dungeon journal in Black Rook Hold heroic the other day still had "Use Active Mitigation to avoid the bleed on this ability." Yet when I used ISB when the boss sheared, boom it worked! So I think they still need to work on that.
    @Valk at the moment getting the Keg to explode on something, given travel time and timing of the ability with whatever special you're trying to dodge is a pretty finesse thing. I honestly just use it to give me 3 seconds away from auto-attacks when I start feeling itchy on the expel harm trigger finger. I don't hate the ability, but I can't say I'm in love with it either.

    So far in heroics on beta on my BrM missing an AM check means nothing. And I'm not even overgearing the content yet. I've been solo queuing all the heroics I've run and they've all been as smooth as could be. One thing I'm concerned with is the amount of damage you do as BrM in heroics.

    I honestly don't know how but after Black Rook Hold the other day I opened up skada and on the last boss fight I did 312K dps. I was ~20k below the 2 DPS DHs and ~50k below the UH DK. I couldn't believe it. The last boss in there is a single target fight, so I don't know if I was cleaving off an object, but the next time I do that place I'm going to parse it because none of my other tanks do anything near what the dps do like that expect in very specific aoe situations.

  17. #1557
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramad View Post
    I honestly don't know how but after Black Rook Hold the other day I opened up skada and on the last boss fight I did 312K dps. I was ~20k below the 2 DPS DHs and ~50k below the UH DK. I couldn't believe it. The last boss in there is a single target fight, so I don't know if I was cleaving off an object, but the next time I do that place I'm going to parse it because none of my other tanks do anything near what the dps do like that expect in very specific aoe situations.
    The last boss in Blackrook Hold gives you a 300% increased dmg debuff. If you're Keg Smashing onto the Stinging Swarms that attach to people, you're going to get some pretty big numbers.

  18. #1558
    Heroics are a hard thing to judge anything with unless you get a group to walk into the dungeon with you sadly because the 15% buff nearly makes them as easy as normal mode dungeons. I'm hoping to get cracking on mythic dungeons myself when I get back from my honeymoon this Sunday.

    Also when I get back I'm intending to start getting more informational stuff in the form of videos out to assist with transitioning into Legion since there's a bit of change going on between the spec rework and shifting of powermore into the hands of your healers.
    Every time you say "Brewmasters need to stay at 40-60% to be optimal" your favorite deity kills 10 kittens. Here is how it actually works from the Sparkle Dragon's mouth
    Play Monster Hunter? Here's my FC: 1779-0791-2717

    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  19. #1559
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    You're also the first person I've ever seen on MMO-Champion That was trash-talking Bay. Most everyone I've ever seen like the guy, and refers to his videos in a positive way.
    I do not find him to be of a quality of player or Youtuber to make particular note of. Like Viperz said, he's skimming too quickly. Also, his history as someone that should be listened to is shaky, at best.

    Most of the Twitch guys save their videos, so you don't need to watch them live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampere View Post
    I read all of Celestalon's posts and I'm still confused as to what they are doing.

    I give up lol
    He's saying that, at live Legion launch, the game will automatically tell you what button to use and when. It's basically DBM. Some would say that it plays the game for you, that there's no choice, but there wasn't a choice to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    So why does everyone hate Exploding Keg so much if you can dodge specials? Now it's been a while since I got into this, but does a crit still over ride a dodge?
    I can't say I've heard of this ever.

  20. #1560
    As far as I know in the combat table you have to hit before you can crit. So no crit would override a dodge because the game would check for a hit first. Which it would return with no.

    I don't really have a great opinion of that guy bay either. From what I've seen from his videos they're very very sparse on information that matters. It's mostly speculative theorycrafting he does. I watched a feral video of his once and I did not find it to be very accurate, so I avoid his videos now.

    I wish I had the time to make videos, but even when I sparingly used to stream, it was basically useless for getting information out there in the WoD beta. Just not enough time to make things neat and tidy.

    Thanks for the info about the last boss of BRH, I only have done it the one time. I'd echo the sentiment that heroics are basically faceroll easy on the beta right now in 810-820 gear. Looking forward to mythics, unfortunately it looks like I have to be 835+ to do any mythics from the trade chat spam. >.<
    Last edited by Ultramad; 2016-06-14 at 03:59 AM.

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