[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Tempguy]

In two years a lot can change. There is no reason they could not have held out and then surrendered when they had to.

Stannis and his men were starving and did not surrender and he is respected for that even by his enemies. Edmure will be seen as the guy who gave up quick and easy.

[Kellorion]

So LSH has to be coming right? So waiting for her to appear and go 'Where is Arya?!?''

Where were the other dragons, shouldnt that fleet have already been toast by time Dany gets back?

Wonder where Varys is going? Maybe North, maybe to meet with either Ironborne forces?

[Gaman]

How do you overpower a Castle in which you can't even get the bridge down?
Yeah you can't.
Remember how Stannis held Storm's End with 500 men against 50k?

Was the siege of Storm's End really a siege tho? Did the Tyrells ever really try to take it? If my memory serves me correct, the only thing the Tyrell army did during the siege was feast outside the walls, waiting for the outcome of the war. Robert loosing, take the castle for Aerys. Robert winning, lift the siege and say sorry. Maintaining their house's possition in the realm no mather the outcome of the war.

[Frontenac]

Jaime will redeem himself. In previous seasons he went through the book with names of all the Kingsguards. His section listed some type of 'mocking' which earned him the title Kingslayer. His section in the book has nothing. Everybody who reads the Jaime Lanister section will laugh, no honorable deeds.

He's going to earn his place in that book. He's going to be awesome.

No he's not. He's not a Kingsguard anymore.

[Damajin]

You can already see it. Here. I'll break it down.

-Cersei's plan is fucked. No trial by combat
-Cersei told Qybern to find out about the wildfire being stored
-Plan is set in motion
-Jaime comes into the city with the army
-Jaime walks in as Cersei gives the order to "BURN THEM ALL!"
-Kingslayer turns into Kinslayer
-the Valonqar prophecy is fulfilled
-Jaime receives a raven from Brienne. Winter has come.
-Jaime and the Lannister army ride north

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Yeah, he's pussy whipped. Margaeri is out to destroy the high sparrow and the faith militant. Feed Tommen some ass and he'll do whatever the fuck she wants him to. And I would too. She is hot.

While I like this theory it leaves out one factor: The Mountain. Unless they were utterly alone there’d be no way for Jaime to turn on Cersei without the Mountain finishing him off in response which of course then removes the parts about him leading the Lannister army North. The only thing Jaime might have going for him against the Mountain is if he’s managed to acquire the other Valyrian Steel sword that his father had made from Ice and that was held by Joffrey but we haven’t seen that noted one single time yet so nothing to bank on there. Still all in all a good theory and I do think we’ll see Cersei go all Mad King on the Faith soon enough, will be fun to watch.

[Osiria]

While I like this theory it leaves out one factor: The Mountain. Unless they were utterly alone there’d be no way for Jaime to turn on Cersei without the Mountain finishing him off in response which of course then removes the parts about him leading the Lannister army North. The only thing Jaime might have going for him against the Mountain is if he’s managed to acquire the other Valyrian Steel sword that his father had made from Ice and that was held by Joffrey but we haven’t seen that noted one single time yet so nothing to bank on there. Still all in all a good theory and I do think we’ll see Cersei go all Mad King on the Faith soon enough, will be fun to watch.

I'd say it would happen in the exact opposite way (opposite of what Sakred said). I don't think Jaime would ever turn on Cersei for people that are pretty much their enemies. Specially after everything. Cersei is all he has left. Becoming the Kingslayer was due to moral reasons, but now with everyone ready to turn on both of them as soon as the news of their incest comes out, slaying Cersei would reward him nothing. I'd say he would go along with her plan and die by her side.

I imagine Dani would arrive in an (almost) completely destroyed city which would probably accept her rule without barely any resistance. I imagine the sept would be wiped out during the explosions, with over half the city left as nothing more than a smouldering ruin, so even though the people are adept of the Seven, there probably won't be any conflict even if Dani intents to stabilish the worship of the Red God in the kingdom.

Also, I'm not sure if Valyrian Steel would be work anything against the Mountain. I mean, if you're talking about it as if the blade would have the same effect as it would on a White Walker. Because if not, then yea, Valyrian Steel is better than most metals.

[Frontenac]

The Blackfish himself states that he doesn't have a lot of men when talking to Brienne, now ofcourse a few men can hold a well situated castle for a long time, and Riverrun is very well situated. But in the end, everyone in Riverrun would die. Honour matters nothing to the dead.

Now, lets look at the Tully words, Family, Duty, Honour.

Family - Edmure saved his family, he saved his son, his son who other than himself, is the last Tully left alive. Except for the Blackfish ofcourse. Who had already stated that he wanted to go down fighting. Its not really a difficult choice, let an old man live for a few years more, and then eventually die, or save a young child.

Duty - Edmures duty is to his people. He saved his people, he saved his castle. Once again, its an easy choice, let the siege continue, watch Riverrun be destroyed and what its people either be slaughtered when the castle is taken by force, or starve to death a couple of years down the line.

Honour - Honour doesn't matter to the dead, i'm a firm believer in the quote from Mass Effect "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honour matters. The silence is your answer".

Now as to the "2 years of provisions", and maybe holding out long enough for the North to come down and save them? Where is this army going to come from? The 2 biggest armies in the North, that being the army of the Boltons and all there Bannermen, and the Wildlings/Houses that have joined up with Jon and Sansa are about to batter themselves bloody at Winterfell, so neither army will be in any state to then march south and fight there way past the Twins (as has been previously stated, the only way to get an army from one side of the Trident to another, that being the reason that the Freys even have power). So that leaves the Knights of the Vale, who maybe under the command of Lysa Arryn, might have come to help them, but they aren't anymore, they are under the command of Littlefinger, what does Littlefinger have to gain by going up against the Freys, who being Lords of the Riverlands now, would also call there banners and by extension the Lannisters and the Crown? Nothing at all, so it wouldn't happen.

I agree with you. Blackfish may have shown more "honour", but he didn't give crap about duty and family. Let's remember that his brother and lord Hoster wanted him to marry a Greyjoy. That would have brought Robert's Rebellion the Ironborn Fleet. The Blackfish refused and prefered to remain a bachelor, which is not well seen in a world based on feudalism and heredity. In the Siege of Riverrun, it was not about family and duty. It was about his home and his honour.

Like it or not, Edmure is the future of the Tully family. He has a son. Brynden has none and is a little old to have one. It was a hard thing to swallow, for sure, but I'm afraid Edmure had no choice. I don't know if I understood well, but Jaime promised him that he would live in Casterly Rock, that his son would be trained in combat and receive a keep when he comes of age. Thus, the Tully's name would live on, if only as Lannister bannermen.

It's like the last King of the North, the King Who Knelt. He could have been "honourable" and fight to the death. He and all his family would have been dead. He prefered to be Warden of the North instead and let his family prosper after him.

But I still loathed him, and Jaime, and the Freys when they took Riverrun...

[Kellorion]

T-1000 Waif-inator
''Have you seen this girl with No Name?!''

[Tempguy]

Here's the behind-the-scenes video for episode 7 and 8:

Another example of why CGI is superior when it adds to practical effects. All this jerking it to full CGI is a waste of money IMO. That riverrun set was fucking beautiful.

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T-1000 Waif-inator
''Have you seen this girl with No Name?!''

She got an upgrade!

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I agree with you. Blackfish may have shown more "honour", but he didn't give crap about duty and family. Let's remember that his brother and lord Hoster wanted him to marry a Greyjoy. That would have brought Robert's Rebellion the Ironborn Fleet. The Blackfish refused and prefered to remain a bachelor, which is not well seen in a world based on feudalism and heredity. In the Siege of Riverrun, it was not about family and duty. It was about his home and his honour.

Like it or not, Edmure is the future of the Tully family. He has a son. Brynden has none and is a little old to have one. It was a hard thing to swallow, for sure, but I'm afraid Edmure had no choice. I don't know if I understood well, but Jaime promised him that he would live in Casterly Rock, that his son would be trained in combat and receive a keep when he comes of age. Thus, the Tully's name would live on, if only as Lannister bannermen.

It's like the last King of the North, the King Who Knelt. He could have been "honourable" and fight to the death. He and all his family would have been dead. He prefered to be Warden of the North instead and let his family prosper after him.

But I still loathed him, and Jaime, and the Freys when they took Riverrun...

One thing. Men are not women. They can have kids well into old age of the woman is fertile.

[Damajin]

I'd say it would happen in the exact opposite way (opposite of what Sakred said). I don't think Jaime would ever turn on Cersei for people that are pretty much their enemies. Specially after everything. Cersei is all he has left. Becoming the Kingslayer was due to moral reasons, but now with everyone ready to turn on both of them as soon as the news of their incest comes out, slaying Cersei would reward him nothing. I'd say he would go along with her plan and die by her side.

I imagine Dani would arrive in an (almost) completely destroyed city which would probably accept her rule without barely any resistance. I imagine the sept would be wiped out during the explosions, with over half the city left as nothing more than a smouldering ruin, so even though the people are adept of the Seven, there probably won't be any conflict even if Dani intents to stabilish the worship of the Red God in the kingdom.

Also, I'm not sure if Valyrian Steel would be work anything against the Mountain. I mean, if you're talking about it as if the blade would have the same effect as it would on a White Walker. Because if not, then yea, Valyrian Steel is better than most metals.

He might turn on her if she becomes more or less the Mad King through this act of using Wildfire, since he was willing to kill the King to stop him from unleashing it if she managed to actually do it then it might break apart whatever bond they have in his heart, and that side of him that Brienne sees might come forth instead. No guarantees but certainly a possibility.

As for the sword I was just thinking that Valyrian Steel is effective against Undead and not just WW. Valyrian Steel is definitely better than most metals in general, just how much so hasn't been laid out in ultra detail for us.

[Frontenac]

Another example of why CGI is superior when it adds to practical effects. All this jerking it to full CGI is a waste of money IMO. That riverrun set was fucking beautiful.

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She got an upgrade!

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One thing. Men are not women. They can have kids well into old age of the woman is fertile.

Okay. Let's suppose he holds the siege for two years, which would make him two years older, and that he manages to find a wife from a good family that would daigned an alliance with him. The first child may be a girl (50% of the chances). The second may also be a girl. That's not unheard of. Then a child may be still born, or die in the craddle, there's a good chance in winter. There's also andropause... How old will he be for his first son? Edmure has a son, right now.

[Sooba]

I am not debating pragmatism Vs Romantism in this parculiar case, the other poster started doing that. I stated that GOT is a romantic world where Honor > All.

That is a complete misread of game of thrones.

He chose the honorless weak way out, there is not denying that

I started with, and will hold that argument, that Edmure never gave up Riverrun because it was the "sensible" thing to do. He gave it up because he is a weak man. He has always been described as weak, not very skilled, and even less strategist. He gave up because he was scared and broken, and that happened because he is weak.

Yep. So easy to judge. Neither book nor show supports your claim of his "brokenness". In fact both show him in fighting (verbally at least) spirit. So at this point you're just saying he was because you want to say he was.

PS: Did you stop to think that having a army coming from the North will force the Frey's to retract their men to protect their holding? That the Lannister won't want to be stuck between two sieges for the Frey's etc. There are loads of conclusions possible on two sides, but Edmure didn't even try to defend anything to see how things unfold.
I don't even know why there is a debate, Edmure is weak point blank. It's shown in the books and in the show.

Nope, here you are claiming it without evidence. Argumentum ad infinitum. Sorry friend, just because you say he's "weak" doesn't make him weak. He has a future and hope. Unlike the Blackfish. So he acted accordingly. He shows himself to be inexperienced in war earlier in the series. He shows himself to actually make difficult decisions regarding his own future in order to act in the best interest of his people and King. That's not any "evidence" of weakness.

Yes he was saved but he still managed to hold his position for a year, even with the men, trebuchet, catapults and all that. And they also attack by water and land. He still held for a year.
And also he was only saved by Davos first, because they didn't expect the siege and therefore didn't have the food.
With the food stored he could have held a very long time.

Storm's End is named and famed for its impregnability. Riverrun is not. Yes they would lose a lot of men. No, Jaime would not care to throw away former Tully bannermen and Freys in order to soften them up and go in for the kill. He simply took what he judged to possibly be the easier option and it paid off.

[Tempguy]

Okay. Let's suppose he holds the siege for two years, which would make him two years older, and that he manages to find a wife from a good family that would daigned an alliance with him. The first child may be a girl (50% of the chances). The second may also be a girl. That's not unheard of. Then a child may be still born, or die in the craddle, there's a good chance in winter. There's also andropause... How old will he be for his first son? Edmure has a son, right now.

In your scenario he would die from gout and not have kids.

In reality, it's possible he could have a son or girl with any highborn lady. Whether the kid is born while he is alive or not makes no difference. An heir is an heir.

Let me put it this way. Walter Frey is still popping out kids. Think on that.

[Sooba]

I agree with you. Blackfish may have shown more "honour", but he didn't give crap about duty and family. Let's remember that his brother and lord Hoster wanted him to marry a Greyjoy. That would have brought Robert's Rebellion the Ironborn Fleet. The Blackfish refused and prefered to remain a bachelor, which is not well seen in a world based on feudalism and heredity. In the Siege of Riverrun, it was not about family and duty. It was about his home and his honour.

Like it or not, Edmure is the future of the Tully family. He has a son. Brynden has none and is a little old to have one. It was a hard thing to swallow, for sure, but I'm afraid Edmure had no choice. I don't know if I understood well, but Jaime promised him that he would live in Casterly Rock, that his son would be trained in combat and receive a keep when he comes of age. Thus, the Tully's name would live on, if only as Lannister bannermen.

It's like the last King of the North, the King Who Knelt. He could have been "honourable" and fight to the death. He and all his family would have been dead. He prefered to be Warden of the North instead and let his family prosper after him.

But I still loathed him, and Jaime, and the Freys when they took Riverrun...

Precisely. But I guess Argonaze would see that King in the North as "weak". As well as the Tyrells of that time. etc.

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Was the siege of Storm's End really a siege tho? Did the Tyrells ever really try to take it? If my memory serves me correct, the only thing the Tyrell army did during the siege was feast outside the walls, waiting for the outcome of the war. Robert loosing, take the castle for Aerys. Robert winning, lift the siege and say sorry. Maintaining their house's possition in the realm no mather the outcome of the war.

Oh that's right. It was Mace outside those walls. :P

[Deleted]

Okay. Let's suppose he holds the siege for two years, which would make him two years older, and that he manages to find a wife from a good family that would daigned an alliance with him. The first child may be a girl (50% of the chances). The second may also be a girl. That's not unheard of. Then a child may be still born, or die in the craddle, there's a good chance in winter. There's also andropause... How old will he be for his first son? Edmure has a son, right now.

And Edmures son would still be the rightful heir of House Tully, regardless of the Blackfish siring a son or not.

[Sooba]

In your scenario he would die from gout and not have kids.

In reality, it's possible he could have a son or girl with any highborn lady. Whether the kid is born while he is alive or not makes no difference. An heir is an heir.

Let me put it this way. Walter Frey is still popping out kids. Think on that.

This would require the Blackfish to want to do so. I get the impression that he has a particular aversion to it. (Precisely the opposite of Walder.) He refused matches good or bad, past and present.

I think it's safe to say that he doesn't expect to ever have children and knows he's growing older as well. His actions are thus influenced by it. Edmure in turn is influenced by being younger, having a wife and child and having more to live for.

[Tempguy]

This would require the Blackfish to want to do so. I get the impression that he has a particular aversion to it. (Precisely the opposite of Walder.) He refused matches good or bad, past and present.

I think it's safe to say that he doesn't expect to ever have children and knows he's growing older as well. His actions are thus influenced by it. Edmure in turn is influenced by being younger, having a wife and child and having more to live for.

Oh yeah I agree. He is not fit to be a lord on that alone. You don't get the choose to be a bachelor cause you feel like it. Even the gay lords at least try and fulfill their duties for heirs. Blackfish has no excuse.

I was just saying that if he wanted , he could have popped out a kid so his age was not a factor. He's a better general anyway. If I was lord and I saw him react that way for me, I'd respond with

"Fuck yeah! Riverrun does not negotiate with terrorists!"

[Sooba]

Yeah, if people are calling GoT a "romantic" setting, then I'm afraid they're working off a totally different source than I am.

If anything, it's the very fact that it's NOT a romantic setting that gives it the identity it has.

Precisely. G.R.R.M. has been very clear that he feels his books are a "conversation" with the fantasy writers who came before. One of the bones he has to pick with them is their romanticism of war. Martin is a pacifist (and a conscientious objector during Vietnam as well). His writing is so characteristically bloody precisely because he wants to show the horrors of war and the gritty nature of humanity. (There's a wonderful juxtaposition. His books are bloodsoaked because he's a pacifist. )

That's not to say that I don't think he's a closet idealistic romantic. I think he is, and it will come out in the "sweet" side of the bittersweet ending he has promised. However he is approaching high fantasy critically. Have a listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBuct2RZpqc

[CalasEU]

Yeah, if people are calling GoT a "romantic" setting, then I'm afraid they're working off a totally different source than I am.

If anything, it's the very fact that it's NOT a romantic setting that gives it the identity it has.

It definitely isn't a romantic setting but it does have romantic features - golden and noble kingsguard and knights, honour, loyalty etc.

[Sooba]

It definitely isn't a romantic setting but it does have romantic features - golden and noble kingsguard and knights, honour, loyalty etc.

Absolutely. But that's not what we're arguing against. Those factors exist. But they are not the be-all and end-all of the story. Or even necessarily it's biggest drivers.

To provide one quote as to what we're not in full agreement with:

I am not debating pragmatism Vs Romantism in this parculiar case, the other poster started doing that. I stated that GOT is a romantic world where Honor > All.

Which we feel simply isn't true.