[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Tempguy]

Precisely. G.R.R.M. has been very clear that he feels his books are a "conversation" with the fantasy writers who came before. One of the bones he has to pick with them is their romanticism of war. Martin is a pacifist (and a conscientious objector during Vietnam as well). His writing is so characteristically bloody precisely because he wants to show the horrors of war and the gritty nature of humanity. (There's a wonderful juxtaposition. His books are bloodsoaked because he's a pacifist. )


That's not to say that I don't think he's a closet idealistic romantic. I think he is, and it will come out in the "sweet" side of the bittersweet ending he has promised. However he is approaching high fantasy critically. Have a listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBuct2RZpqc

So, as a vet who has seen war first hand ( as in I have been shot at and seen people die) I am shocked how much I agree with him. I was ready to rail against him, but he speaks exactly what I think. I'd love to chat with him now.

[Deleted]

Precisely. But I guess Argonaze would see that King in the North as "weak". As well as the Tyrells of that time. etc.

I just thought of a way better example, apparently Ned is weak for forsaking his honour and trying to save his kids.

Ned was in that cell for what, a few months? Edmures been in a cell for years.

[Deleted]

I have a sneaky feeling zombie mountain will go bonkers at some point and just go on a killing spree, either defying Cersei's orders or being sacrificed by her to keep her ennemies busy while lighting the fuse so to speak.
Or perhaps he'll go full on Uruk Hai berserker and jump into the wildfire with a torch himself.

[Deleted]

Absolutely. But that's not what we're arguing against. Those factors exist. But they are not the be-all and end-all of the story. Or even necessarily it's biggest drivers.

To provide one quote as to what we're not in full agreement with:

Which we feel simply isn't true.

Does this really need explaining? Westerosi culture values honor above almost all else. That doesn't mean that life does. Honor is made up by humans, and anything we make up is irrelevant to the Universe/world.

Compare it to todays morals. We believe that killing is wrong, but we do it anyway. We just say its justified cause the state/military does it. It's a moral, which is often thrown under the bus when it's inconvenient. Honor was thrown under the bus by Jaime when he realized that the king he served was batshit crazy.

'You served him well, when serving was safe' was what Ned said to Jaime when he told him about stabbing the mad king. Only certain individuals truely live up to the morals, and stay honourable till the end.

Every culture has it's own ideals. And most of the time, people will forsake those when they get cold feet, or in some cases (Littlefinger), cause they found out it was a concept made up by the people around him and decided to use it to gain an upper hand in life.

[Tempguy]

In some ways, you guys kinda remind me of Sansa back in Season 1, even though you've seen everything that happens between then and now.

Somehow you still don't see all of the pomp and circumstance and claims of "honor" as flimsy bullshit the way all the other characters - especially Sansa - have come to realize.

I get it. At the end of the day you can't eat honor type thing.

What folks are saying is how you are perceived is what is important. It's Varys power riddle. Who has the power?

Power lies where you think it lies. Same with honor. Honor is all about perception. And perception is important to Westerosi. You can be a douche , but you need people to think you have honor.

[Mascotte]

Jaime spills the beans in his 1 on 1 speech;

'But Catelyn and Cersei...
There is a fierceness you don't often see,
They would do anything to protect their babies,
Start a war,
Burn cities to ash,
Free their worst enemies,
The things we do for love..

Cat did the bolded parts, while Cersei is about to do the underlined part.
She figured out about the Wildfire stash Tyrion found, that's the 'little birds confirmed it' section.
No trial by combat so the mountain just became a worthless sack of bones.

[Gallahadd]

Another good episode. The Hound FTW.

I find it hilarious that we thought of all these theories, each more convoluted than the last to explain why a just stabbed Arya seemed to be parkouring up.

We skipped the obvious answer. Because she just is, you cunts.

[Mascotte]

Another good episode. The Hound FTW.

I find it hilarious that we thought of all these theories, each more convoluted than the last to explain why a just stabbed Arya seemed to be parkouring up.

We skipped the obvious answer. Because she just is, you cunts.

Thats part of the hype for me tho.
Develop theories, some more crazy then others (The whole waif=/=Syrio got a little much..) and then discuss em with my GF.
We both love the show and we both have (crazy) ideas about whats next.
Last week i noted the Whitewalkerking had 3 other walkerfriends with him, all on (undead) horses.
So i made a reference to the 4 horseman of the apocalypse.
We then discussed that if indeed those 4 is the ultimate plot what would happen;

Arya could kill 1
John/Sansa could kill 1
Dany kills 1
Jaime/Cersei kill one.

Game over, 'we win'.

Ofcourse, it will all be (totally) wrong.
But just having the debate, the theory crafting with the person you love, for a completely fictional show, is magic.
We live in The Netherlands, so watching live isnt really an option (its about 4am here then) but we both get up early monday mornings, don't touch our phones at all, i quickly make breakfast and we watch the new episode together.
And then discuss it for an hour or so before showers/work etc.

Not alot of shows out there that give you that..

[Gallahadd]

Also: "You're getting old, Clegane!"

"He's not."

Best line in the episode, and a top contender for best line of the season. I forgot just how much I love the Hound.

I really hope that we get Cleganebowl. I don't mind if it's not this season, but maybe next season whilst Cersei and Gregor are on the run out in the wilds they run into the Brotherhood, backed up by The Hound.

Shit, I don't really care HOW it happens, I just want it to happen and I need it to be even better than Hound Vs Cersei or Ned vs Dayne, which right now are Imo, the two best fights in GoT.

[Fencers]

Eh. Thought the episode was kinda boring and more series stalling. One of the worst of the season. Not feeling GOT is up the quality of previous seasons. Maybe this should end as a series sooner rather than later.

Thoughts:

- The scenes with Tyrion this season are a real waste of character and actor. His scenes are like the most boring to me this year.

- Hound stuff was also rather pointless. Could have wrapped that all up quicker and with less drawn scenery chewing like pissing in the stream or trying on the boots. Worthless stuff.

- I'm sick of Daenerys too. Whatever.

- Chase scene with the Waif was awful. Unsatisfying resolution and out of character from both Arya and the Waif. Also betrays characterization of Arya up to the episode she was stabbed. Why did the writers even bother if this is the story's end in Bravos? Or at least the end of the arc.

[eschatological]

Overall a very weak episode. A couple questions:

1) Why does the waif, who is supposedly a trained assassin, has full visibility and is above Arya, jump down to try and kill her....on top of two people who obstruct her and give Arya enough notice to escape? How does Arya win that fight? Like, honestly. Even if she's been healing for a week or two, they made a point to illustrate that her wounds had at least re-opened. Jesus.

2) Does Jaqen believe in the many-face God? Because he seems to have broken every rule of his religion.

3) What exactly has the Brotherhood been doing? Beric seems to be implying they're still ready for Ned's mission from s1, investigating the White Walkers - but why have they been tooling around the Riverlands then? I don't know why they would mention that easily-forgotten fact that they were there when Yoren presented the wight's body parts to Tyrion in the throne room, if it seems like they haven't been doing anything about it.

4) Any chance the Blackfish escaped in the river (like the old Red Wedding storyline) and Jaime's guys just said he died to cover their asses?

5) Any chance Jaime now lets Edmure and his Fish Men go North like Brienne suggested? The Freys aren't going to want to have Edmure and his men still in Riverrun.
a) Would Jaime support the idea of the Tullys joining Sansa? He seemed to imply he didn't believe Sansa had anything to do with Joffrey's death.
b) Would Jaime feel that leaving the Tullys with the Freys (likely to be killed) be breaking his oath to Catelyn, which he's successfully kept to this point?

[Gib Lover]

Overall a very weak episode. A couple questions:

1) Why does the waif, who is supposedly a trained assassin, has full visibility and is above Arya, jump down to try and kill her....on top of two people who obstruct her and give Arya enough notice to escape? How does Arya win that fight? Like, honestly. Even if she's been healing for a week or two, they made a point to illustrate that her wounds had at least re-opened. Jesus.

2) Does Jaqen believe in the many-face God? Because he seems to have broken every rule of his religion.

3) What exactly has the Brotherhood been doing? Beric seems to be implying they're still ready for Ned's mission from s1, investigating the White Walkers - but why have they been tooling around the Riverlands then? I don't know why they would mention that easily-forgotten fact that they were there when Yoren presented the wight's body parts to Tyrion in the throne room, if it seems like they haven't been doing anything about it.

4) Any chance the Blackfish escaped in the river (like the old Red Wedding storyline) and Jaime's guys just said he died to cover their asses?

5) Any chance Jaime now lets Edmure and his Fish Men go North like Brienne suggested? The Freys aren't going to want to have Edmure and his men still in Riverrun.
a) Would Jaime support the idea of the Tullys joining Sansa? He seemed to imply he didn't believe Sansa had anything to do with Joffrey's death.
b) Would Jaime feel that leaving the Tullys with the Freys (likely to be killed) be breaking his oath to Catelyn, which he's successfully kept to this point?

1. She cut the candle and we have established she had learned to fight blind. Still absolutely retarded that she was jumping and rolling and diving and it took the second major fall for her wounds to reopen. Even more retarded that she overpowered the Waif. Even MORE retarded that it happened offscreen.

2. The Faceless Men are all actually really shitty. The only two we have seen have been terrible at their jobs.

3. idk, bad writing

4. Maybe, that's the beauty of these hacks doing shit offscreen, they can pull Brynden out of their asses any time in the future with a "lol you didn't see him die so he survived."

5. Even if he believes that Sansa isn't responsible for Joffrey's death, she is still vying for control of Winterfell away from the Boltons, a crown aligned family. So I would assume he will not let the Tullys help her, unless they find out just how crazy Ramsay is and want him gone no matter who replaces him.


Terrible episode, like I said last page probably the worst of the season if not the series.

[draynay]

Eh. Thought the episode was kinda boring and more series stalling. One of the worst of the season. Not feeling GOT is up the quality of previous seasons. Maybe this should end as a series sooner rather than later.

Thoughts:

- The scenes with Tyrion this season are a real waste of character and actor. His scenes are like the most boring to me this year.

- Hound stuff was also rather pointless. Could have wrapped that all up quicker and with less drawn scenery chewing like pissing in the stream or trying on the boots. Worthless stuff.

- I'm sick of Daenerys too. Whatever.

- Chase scene with the Waif was awful. Unsatisfying resolution and out of character from both Arya and the Waif. Also betrays characterization of Arya up to the episode she was stabbed. Why did the writers even bother if this is the story's end in Bravos? Or at least the end of the arc.

They just don't know what to do with Tyrion, they must feel like they have to get Dinklage on screen even if they have nothing written worth shooting and its very telling they have nothing written and aren't capable. Having their character begging to make the scene interesting and having the other characters fail to do so, can you get a more obtuse metaphor for the writers' inability to write anything worth a shit?

Maybe the show runners missed the Hound and lingered on him a bit. His scenes were the only worthwhile ones in the episode so I can forgive it.

The last two episodes with Waif & Arya were just terrible, were they trying to build dramatic tension with a bunch on inane out-of-character behavior? I'm just glad its over, I had been liking the way the story was playing out up until the idiotic prancing around town and blundering into a stabbing, the miraculous recovery and getting Lady Crane killed didn't help make the story worthwhile either. Very unsatisfying resolution.

[Darth Belichick]

This made me laugh.

[Tempguy]

This made me laugh.

I know I am not the first to call the waif a terminator, but I feel like a proud parent seeing this.

I feel like an asshole so I'll add more.

I liked the arya Jaqen theory. It would have explained her out of character behaviors like she wanted to be found. It would have explained a lot of that was another faceless man testing the waif.

Meanwhile arya is stowing away on a ship. Would also provide some tension since whe will always be looking over her shoulder no matter where she ends up. Could also have arya flex her FAce swapping skills to get one over on a possible Assam and have this arc pay off.


Basically, the fans > show writers on the last episode.

[Damajin]

Overall a very weak episode. A couple questions:

1) Why does the waif, who is supposedly a trained assassin, has full visibility and is above Arya, jump down to try and kill her....on top of two people who obstruct her and give Arya enough notice to escape? How does Arya win that fight? Like, honestly. Even if she's been healing for a week or two, they made a point to illustrate that her wounds had at least re-opened. Jesus.

2) Does Jaqen believe in the many-face God? Because he seems to have broken every rule of his religion.

3) What exactly has the Brotherhood been doing? Beric seems to be implying they're still ready for Ned's mission from s1, investigating the White Walkers - but why have they been tooling around the Riverlands then? I don't know why they would mention that easily-forgotten fact that they were there when Yoren presented the wight's body parts to Tyrion in the throne room, if it seems like they haven't been doing anything about it.

4) Any chance the Blackfish escaped in the river (like the old Red Wedding storyline) and Jaime's guys just said he died to cover their asses?

5) Any chance Jaime now lets Edmure and his Fish Men go North like Brienne suggested? The Freys aren't going to want to have Edmure and his men still in Riverrun.
a) Would Jaime support the idea of the Tullys joining Sansa? He seemed to imply he didn't believe Sansa had anything to do with Joffrey's death.
b) Would Jaime feel that leaving the Tullys with the Freys (likely to be killed) be breaking his oath to Catelyn, which he's successfully kept to this point?

Yeah it was a pretty weak episode, and shows that without the backbone of GRRM the story can't hope to be anything but shoddy at best. Seems more like they're just writing fanfic and not writing real stories and that's a shitty way for this to go.

I thought that Arya won the fight against the Waif because in the end a Water Dancer>Faceless Man as far as skill in actual combat and as we see a few examples of it the Waif wasn't actually that great of an assassin, but one hell of a bully and browbeater when the target is at a disadvantage. As to what Jaqen believes, I think he is a true believer but that the Arya plot armor and backstory is too much for such a narrow lifestyle and story potential that a Faceless Man would have. It reminds me of the line from William Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell: "The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn of the crow" meaning you need to live the life your spirit and potential is most suited for and Arya was always going to chafe under the solemn, quiet and still life of a Faceless Man. Best for both to part ways.

Wouldn't surprise me if Jaime lets the Tully forces go North. I don't think he believes Sansa had anything to do with Joffrey's death, he can barely accept that she's survived what she has.

[Frontenac]

Wouldn't surprise me if Jaime lets the Tully forces go North. I don't think he believes Sansa had anything to do with Joffrey's death, he can barely accept that she's survived what she has.

I would be surprised. Why Jaime Lannister would help Sansa Stark retake Winterfell when we all know she would never submit to the crown? The last thing the Lannisters need is a new Queen in the North.

- - - Updated - - -

Cersei is really pushed to the corner. She now can only count on Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong. She's on a path of auto-destruction. I wouldn't be surprised if she spills the beans and admits that she had an incestuous relation with her own brother, that neither Joffrey, Myrcella or Tommen are legitimate. Just out of spite towards Tommen, the High Sparrow and Margaery. Tommen would not be the rightful King anymore, so Margaery would be the wife of a bastard and not Queen anymore and the High Sparrow would lose some legitimacy. It would be chaos. As for the wildfire, my bet is that it is Robert Strong that will be sent to ignite it. He's already dead. Also, he obeys perinde ac cadaver, as the Jesuits said. Like a corpse...

[Kellorion]

Im thinking Melisandre use some kings blood to whip up a miracle for their side. Perhaps Sansa, maybe the Lord of Light will reveal to her R+L=J and use Jon's blood. Dont think the Brotherhood nor Brienne get back to her in time.

[Sooba]

Im thinking Melisandre use some kings blood to whip up a miracle for their side. Perhaps Sansa, maybe the Lord of Light will reveal to her R+L=J and use Jon's blood. Dont think the Brotherhood nor Brienne get back to her in time.

The entire might of the (before now untouched) Vale of Arryn is sitting somewhere near the Neck. I sincerely doubt the Manderlys or Reeds would oppose his passage North. Petyr is capricious at best, but we know which side he would enter that fight on.

[Kellorion]

I actually forgot about Littlefinger and the knights. Thinking Jon goes for a 1v1 with The Joker, that fails, battle, True North nearly done for, Littlefinger rides in just in time to save the day, and make himself a hero.