No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Daffan]

Completely agree.

Once I had flight I joined in on one of the world bosses in Tanaan (which I had no hope of getting in on before) and it was glorious. There were people with flying mounts all epiclly flying in and surrounding the boss, people were grouping up and those that didn't have flight were summoned.

It was great.

lmao "it was great" I wish it was that easy to be entertained myself.

[Bun-Bun]

lmao "it was great" I wish it was that easy to be entertained myself.

Well look at the alternative. People camping the boss and getting bored and frustrated waiting for it to spawn and when asked to summon get smartass remarks have "get here yourself you lazy". Once flight was reintroduced the mentality in Tanaan completely changed for the better. People were having fun in the world again.

And if you're not entertained by such things I question why you are playing a MMO.

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Sub numbers are in constant decline. So clearly not caused by lack of flight, as the rate of decline has been the same since many expansions ago.

WoD showed the quickest decline of subs in WoW history. Not sure where you are getting your facts from, they are clearly wrong.

Subs were declining at such a fast rate blizzard implemented a task force to talk to players that were quitting and why they were quitting. I spoke with one of these representatives at length about the issues of flight and Blizzards handling of the situation. His feedback to me was that that it was a very common complaint he was receiving during these "exit interviews" with players and that I was far from being alone on the subject. Many were complaining about how Blizzard deceived its players and had overall piss poor communication before/during the expansion.

EDIT:

3,000,000 in four months (Dec 14 - Mar 15), MoP was only down 1,300,000 in a similar timeframe after launch. That's more than double.

[SirCowdog]

The biggest culprits in roleplaying games is far too many ways that instantaneously or speeds up your travel far too much.

World of Warcraft currently possesses teleports, portals everywhere, hearthstones, summoning, quick-travel menus, ground mounts and fly mounts.

The scale of the world becomes noticeable by all this, and it's wearing it out.

They had to limit it some, and locking flying is a good start.

If that was really the case, then why not nuke all portals, hearthstones, sprints, teleports, flight paths, and every other form of getting players to where they want to go?

Sorry, that logic doesn't hold up. It's the same as when people ignore the fact that classes can use CC, stealth, pets, aggro drops, or other methods to skip past monsters. The argument is flawed.

Stop using flight as a scapegoat for something it isn't responsible for.

[wing5wong]

If flight means convenience, then it is useful. Removing something useful is hurting the game. Not a cycle here.

No, removing players from, where the content is hurts the game,
regardless of whether or not that is what you will do, if it is the easiest choice, people will tend towards it.

Its different when there are flying areas only availalbe, but there arent in legion/ Should they redesign legion just for that? no.
The only purpose flight will serve in legion is to cut down time, a huge flaw in pacing of content, regardless of your opinion on how fast you should be able to finish everything.
When you can do everything so quickyl that you are only logging in an hour a day or less, the game has killed itself.

Developing enough content to sustain a player non stop for several hours a day while allowing instant transportation to everything? just not feasible

[Deleted]

The current beta version has a the 1st stage of the achievement available, and, it gives a buff on its own. It doesn't give flying but it gives faster ground speed. I find this kind of design great, especially since this time around the entire continent is prepared for flying, not like last time that some of it was unfinished because when they first designed it they didn't know if flying would exist at all.

[Bun-Bun]

No, removing players from, where the content is hurts the game,
regardless of whether or not that is what you will do, if it is the easiest choice, people will tend towards it.

Its different when there are flying areas only availalbe, but there arent in legion/ Should they redesign legion just for that? no.
The only purpose flight will serve in legion is to cut down time, a huge flaw in pacing of content, regardless of your opinion on how fast you should be able to finish everything.
When you can do everything so quickyl that you are only logging in an hour a day or less, the game has killed itself.

Developing enough content to sustain a player non stop for several hours a day while allowing instant transportation to everything? just not feasible

In the same breath, content designed that requires logging in everyday for 1+ hours is also killing the game.

[Paperquake]

I disagree. I think content that takes very little time is going to be the downfall of the game. Look at BC. Everything took ages.

[Bun-Bun]

I disagree. I think content that takes very little time is going to be the downfall of the game. Look at BC. Everything took ages.

There is a difference between well designed content that takes time to complete and poorly design content that is gated to take longer in fiscal time but less actual gameplay time. WoD and Legion are full of the latter.

I don't want to log in every day to do the same boring task over and over again. I want to log in when I have time to play and invest a significant amount of time into completing my objectives. That may only be 1-3 days in a week.

And when I do log in, I want to be able to fly; given that I am at max level.

[Fkiolaris]

Developing enough content to sustain a player non stop for several hours a day while allowing instant transportation to everything? just not feasible

Other MMO games seem to be able to do it just fine, and thus they completely shot your argument to pieces. Nice try though

[Bun-Bun]

Other MMO games seem to be able to do it just fine, and thus they completely shot your argument to pieces. Nice try though

As did BC and even moreso Wrath.

I played Wrath for 10+ hours a day for ~10 months when I was out of work. One of the top warlocks on Eonar. Raided until the very end finishing roic ICC. Burnt out a few months into Cata.

But the content was there, flying did not break it in any way shape or form.

Wrath encouraged players to play with other players. WoD did the exact opposite.

[Mafic]

I don't think that will be as much of an issue as you might think. People will simply shift more towards the higher end Mythic+ dungeons, and their raid groups will move out of normal and more into Heroic and Mythic raiding. Considering what a low percentage of players has completed anything in mythic raiding right now, that sounds like a good thing.
.

Their gear stratification scheme in Legion will make world content irrelevant within a few months. Thus, defeating the entire point of gating players and keeping them on the ground. They are trying to prolong the artifact and Suramar grinds because they plan on releasing Patch 7.1 months later.

Edit: I think also that raiding and PVP instances also makes world content irrelevant three months later.

[SirCowdog]

When you can do everything so quickyl that you are only logging in an hour a day or less, the game has killed itself.

When you're forced to spend 3 hours on content that should only take 1 hour, the game has killed itself.

When the content which is there is consumed, and the player leaves, then returns when there's more content. That falls under being Cyclical, and is expected by the devs. It doesn't break the game just because you say it does.

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Other MMO's have better travel systems than WoW (eg flight paths, hearthstone). You must not have much MMORPG experience, but a lot of you haven't played enough to see outside of the WoW bubble.

I believe he's actually agreeing with you, Mafic.

Their gear stratification scheme in Legion will make world content irrelevant within a few months. Thus, defeating the entire point of gating players and keeping them on the ground. They are trying to prolong the artifact and Suramar grinds because they plan on releasing Patch 7.1 months later.

Hmm...that's possible. Although maybe 7.1 will have more for the open world to do as well as the extra dungeon they announced. But I think you're definitely right that gear will have more to do with trivializing the open world than flight. In which case, you'd also be right about attempting to prolong to time spent in the open world to accomplish anything.

[wing5wong]

In the same breath, content designed that requires logging in everyday for 1+ hours is also killing the game.

Which is why they moved away from design that requires you to log in every single day and allows dailies to stack up

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I don't want to log in every day to do the same boring task over and over again. I want to log in when I have time to play and invest a significant amount of time into completing my objectives. That may only be 1-3 days in a week.

This is exactly how legion quests work - you will have 3 days worth of quests waiting for you if you dont play for those days

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Other MMO games seem to be able to do it just fine, and thus they completely shot your argument to pieces. Nice try though

Name me one that isnt repeatable content and releases new stuff every week.
No MMO does this.

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When you're forced to spend 3 hours on content that should only take 1 hour, the game has killed itself.

When the content which is there is consumed, and the player leaves, then returns when there's more content. That falls under being Cyclical, and is expected by the devs. It doesn't break the game just because you say it does.

You're exaggerating how long the content takes, but sure.
Nothing wrong with cyclical subs, but i sure dont log on to play for <1 hour a day and expect to get much done

[SirCowdog]

You're exaggerating how long the content takes, but sure.
Nothing wrong with cyclical subs, but i sure dont log on to play for <1 hour a day and expect to get much done

Actually, I'm not. The ratio of travel time vs actual content in the beta right now is right around 3:1. A little better or worse depending on the individual world objective.

[Dhrizzle]

You're exaggerating how long the content takes, but sure.
Nothing wrong with cyclical subs, but i sure dont log on to play for <1 hour a day and expect to get much done

Prior to Tanaan launching you could probably do all the garrison chores in less than an hour and not have to worry about "maze like" terrain or pointless mobs.

[wing5wong]

Prior to Tanaan launching you could probably do all the garrison chores in less than an hour and not have to worry about "maze like" terrain or pointless mobs.

Ahh sorry i forgot about that rivetting gameplay, right clicking masterplan

[Dhrizzle]

Ahh sorry i forgot about that rivetting gameplay, right clicking masterplan

According to some of the opinions in this thread it must be brilliant content, ultimate convenience with a travel:content ratio of zero!

[bufferunderrun]

what piss me the most is that peoples here accept the removal(or extreme restriction) of an important feature of this game; very few game offer flying in the market because to make it compelling require big efforts from the developers it's a disgrace that peoples here just accept that and are even happy instead of being extremely mad and asking for proper developing.

[MasterHamster]

what piss me the most is that peoples here accept the removal(or extreme restriction) of an important feature of this game; very few game offer flying in the market because to make it compelling require big efforts from the developers it's a disgrace that peoples here just accept that and are even happy instead of being extremely mad and asking for proper developing.

Proper developing in MMOs does involve not giving players so many options and fast travel options that they forget there's actually a world between A and B. Proper MMO developing understands that players are way too keen to cut down on anything that takes time if they can, to the point where the rewards doesn't even feel satisfactory.

It's all about designing a good balance between time invested, effort required and sometimes difficulty. This is EVERYWHERE in MMO design, including WoW, but we get hung up on removal of flight because it's a high-profile "nerf" to players, not even considering the fact that everything else, like how much/powerful rewards from world quests, or ilvl of profession items, or the amount of drops or probability of Titanforged also has effects on how fast players progress.
No consideration of how zone layout to cut down on travel time even if flight is removed, this despite a will from the players to have large zones.

Removal of flight doesn't have to have any effect whatsoever on how fast we progress through world content because it all depends on other factors, but it's soooooo much easier to just apply 310% speed beeline speed and say, look, Blizzard is prolonging content.

Who decides that X world quests require you to kill 10 mobs instead of 8? 5?
Who decides that X crafted item requires 30 y mats instead of 20?
Who decides that nodes earn 2-4 items instead of 3-5?
Etc etc etc a thousand times

I'm fine with the removal of flight just the same way I'm fine with all of these things. I'm also fine with Legion having less teleport items. I understand how important pacing is to a successful MMO. I understand that players will always choose the fastest route, even though people here like to pretend they don't. Everbloom became the worst dungeon because instead of moving in a sort of designed direction we're stuck jumping walls... because we "want to skip the trash and just get to the bosses".
Adding flight right away and they'd probably do a balance pass just to make sure players overall progress isn't sped up. But we're back to players just beelining to their targets and like it or not Blizzard doesn't think this is good for the game as a whole, even though some players think flight is the deciding factor whether they buy the expansion or not.

So the compromise is that flight is added after a pretty hefty meta achievement, not just a boring flight license, some time in the final (?) patch, when the increased content consumption and ignoring of world content is no longer as detrimental as it'd be at launch.

[Deleted]

No, removing players from, where the content is hurts the game,
regardless of whether or not that is what you will do, if it is the easiest choice, people will tend towards it.

Its different when there are flying areas only availalbe, but there arent in legion/ Should they redesign legion just for that? no.
The only purpose flight will serve in legion is to cut down time, a huge flaw in pacing of content, regardless of your opinion on how fast you should be able to finish everything.
When you can do everything so quickyl that you are only logging in an hour a day or less, the game has killed itself.

Developing enough content to sustain a player non stop for several hours a day while allowing instant transportation to everything? just not feasible

You cannot do all the content with one class. Not every class is a hybrid with all possible specs like the Druid, and even when playing a Druid, you still can get a different experience with another class in the same roles. Warlock green fire quest was exclusive to that class, and you have had to meet certain prerequisites to be able to start the quest and successfuly finish it. If you want to experience the maximum of content, you need to have alts. Alts have to be maintained at least, and cared for at best, so you can use them to their optimum. And even with all alt-friendly installations like heirlooms and account-wide achievements, playing more than one character does wonders for content lifetime.

For one character specialists, there may be a "content drought", for people with alts, there always will be content. And as a pro-flight altoholic, I am extremely punished by removing travel convenience. Funny thing is, one of the reasons of having alts for me was for some time the option to provide an alt to help people from my guild out with heroic runs or weekly raid quests - I provided guild support with a tank or healer or additional DPS when needed (and my main on lockout). Later, my many healer and tank alts surely did contribute to faster queues in LFD/LFR. If I will have to concentrate on my main again, because stupid travel restrictions don't leave much time to play alts... well... there go your potential healers and tanks. Who knows, how many people would have to face the same problems as I do.

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According to some of the opinions in this thread it must be brilliant content, ultimate convenience with a travel:content ratio of zero!

It was an admirably efficient content for weekdays where I came home from work late and would not have much time to do anything else. If I had time, I surely went out in the world. I finished Tanaan on 14 characters, got Loremaster and Explorer in Nov. 2014 (1-2 weeks after launch), did all Apexis dailys, leveled professions, leveled alts, ran heroics and did the ring questline (almost all of my 14 Horde characters have at least finished the 4th stage of the ring) etc. I am a pro-flyer, and I spend my time out in the world, if there is flying. Garrison was a band-aid for me. I surely had more fun gathering herbs and ore in Tanaan than in the Garrison - after Pathfinder was finished.

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Proper developing in MMOs does involve not giving players so many options and fast travel options that they forget there's actually a world between A and B. Proper MMO developing understands that players are way too keen to cut down on anything that takes time if they can, to the point where the rewards doesn't even feel satisfactory.

It's all about designing a good balance between time invested, effort required and sometimes difficulty. This is EVERYWHERE in MMO design, including WoW, but we get hung up on removal of flight because it's a high-profile "nerf" to players, not even considering the fact that everything else, like how much/powerful rewards from world quests, or ilvl of profession items, or the amount of drops or probability of Titanforged also has effects on how fast players progress.
No consideration of how zone layout to cut down on travel time even if flight is removed, this despite a will from the players to have large zones.

Removal of flight doesn't have to have any effect whatsoever on how fast we progress through world content because it all depends on other factors, but it's soooooo much easier to just apply 310% speed beeline speed and say, look, Blizzard is prolonging content.

Who decides that X world quests require you to kill 10 mobs instead of 8? 5?
Who decides that X crafted item requires 30 y mats instead of 20?
Who decides that nodes earn 2-4 items instead of 3-5?
Etc etc etc a thousand times

I'm fine with the removal of flight just the same way I'm fine with all of these things. I'm also fine with Legion having less teleport items. I understand how important pacing is to a successful MMO. I understand that players will always choose the fastest route, even though people here like to pretend they don't. Everbloom became the worst dungeon because instead of moving in a sort of designed direction we're stuck jumping walls... because we "want to skip the trash and just get to the bosses".

Proper MMO developing is understanding that you CANT give players everything they want.

Wrong. LotRO has slow travel (with dismount option anywhere on the way), fast travel (teleport with intro and outtro riding sequences), many portals (acquired via reputation farming in the respective areas), and more than 1 hearthstone (1 basic HS, some additional HSs you can buy in the shop, and also a HS to your personal housing quarter). There, I only missed flying because I would dearly loved to see the world from other viewpoints, not only from the ground. Conventient travel was done in a good fashion and with a bow to the lore (no flying mounts because giant eagles are sentient beings and only seem to help Gandalf in need).

Warcraft lore had flying units from WC II. While I can go without aerial combat (although it would have been a cool thing), I don't want to miss my flying mounts anymore - flying, as intended.

Nobody in LotRO ever complained about fast travel, about area teleports, or about additional hearthstone teleports. And it has many tedious moments, like many dailys, like the Moria maze, like profession, currency and reputation grinds, and achievement grinds as well (which not only reward points, but contribute with shop currency and talent points for your character). You can grind day in, day out in LotRO, and travel is very convenient. While I would not want all the grind to be implemented in WoW, I want to keep my conventient travel. Don't have to be teleporting everywhere, just let me fly.