[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Deezingworth]

my honeymoon this Sunday

Congratulations on getting wed.

[Valkaneer]

I do not find him to be of a quality of player or Youtuber to make particular note of. Like Viperz said, he's skimming too quickly. Also, his history as someone that should be listened to is shaky, at best.

Most of the Twitch guys save their videos, so you don't need to watch them live.



He's saying that, at live Legion launch, the game will automatically tell you what button to use and when. It's basically DBM. Some would say that it plays the game for you, that there's no choice, but there wasn't a choice to begin with.



I can't say I've heard of this ever.

I actually have been been finding it difficult to find a current BrM streamer. Seems most of the ones I could find that use to have either quit or are now playing something different like Slootbag (he's still not sure what he's going to pay but Brm did't sound like it was on his radar.

On the crit thing I thought that a it checked for hit then crit, but it has been years since I really thought about that AZ it hasn't been much a concern to me since Wrath. So it seems I Forgot what order they were in.

[keqe]

Last time they changed the combat table system was in MoP. So now it first rolls Dodge+Parry+Miss. Then if it goes through it rolls for Crit+Block(+multistrike in WoD) and after those critical block for warrior (or possibly same time as regular block, the order doesn't matter in practice). Then the end results goes out.

Only change in MoP was just moving block from first roll to second. So CTC cap was removed.

Tanks can't get crit in normal situations anyway. Exploding Keg causes boss attacks that can miss to miss, thus they will end at first roll and it won't roll for crit at all.

[Valkaneer]

I do not find him to be of a quality of player or Youtuber to make particular note of. Like Viperz said, he's skimming too quickly. Also, his history as someone that should be listened to is shaky, at best.

Most of the Twitch guys save their videos, so you don't need to watch them live.



He's saying that, at live Legion launch, the game will automatically tell you what button to use and when. It's basically DBM. Some would say that it plays the game for you, that there's no choice, but there wasn't a choice to begin with.



I can't say I've heard of this ever.

I actually have been been finding it difficult to find a current BrM streamer. Seems most of the ones I could find that use to have either quit or are now playing something different like Slootbag (he's still not sure what he's going to pay but Brm did't sound like it was on his radar.

On the crit thing I thought that a it checked for hit then crit, but it has been years since I really thought about that AZ it hasn't been much a concern to me since Wrath. So it seems I Forgot what order they were in.

- - - Updated - - -

Last time they changed the combat table system was in MoP. So now it first rolls Dodge+Parry+Miss. Then if it goes through it rolls for Crit+Block(+multistrike in WoD) and after those critical block for warrior (or possibly same time as regular block, the order doesn't matter in practice). Then the end results goes out.

Only change in MoP was just moving block from first roll to second. So CTC cap was removed.

Tanks can't get crit in normal situations anyway. Exploding Keg causes boss attacks that can miss to miss, thus they will end at first roll and it won't roll for crit at all.

Yeah I thought that originally ( vanilla and bc) ctits couldn't be dodged. And if that was true or still true then it would really screw up that skill. So thanks for clearing that up

[Deleted]

The chances Sloot will play Brew is close to 0 since he's tanking with Naowh who mains Brew... The only way I see him playing Brew is when the best choice becomes double Brew, tbh. And I don't see that happening the way things are looking now.

[dcc626]

The chances Sloot will play Brew is close to 0 since he's tanking with Naowh who mains Brew... The only way I see him playing Brew is when the best choice becomes double Brew, tbh. And I don't see that happening the way things are looking now.

i cant imagine that he isnt going to play DH. Its either that or pally im guessing. Unless something wild happens between now and release.

[Ultramad]

The chances Sloot will play Brew is close to 0 since he's tanking with Naowh who mains Brew... The only way I see him playing Brew is when the best choice becomes double Brew, tbh. And I don't see that happening the way things are looking now.

Wait until the first week of live when 50% of brewmasters are quitting and screaming on the forums that they can't do heroics and they overbuff them...again!

[Valkaneer]

Wait until the first week of live when 50% of brewmasters are quitting and screaming on the forums that they can't do heroics and they overbuff them...again!

Ya that's not quite what i'm hearing so far though, I hear BrM are doing alright. I haven't got to pally or DH tank yet, but so far my DK has seemed most beastly of the 4 I have been playing. Bad thing is you really don't know unless you get all of them decent in Artifact power. I have been doing a lot better on the BrM on Beta so far, after I read "Celestalons BrM Guide....." and saw how they were expecting the BrM to play. It wasn't till then I noticed that ISB and PB was linked. Normally I'm not looking at buttons when i'm getting trained by 5 + mobs, and I haven't needed IBS in any other instance so far. Though yesterday I had some crazed IDK WTF happend but every mob in like 30 yards bum rushed me and I had like 7 or 8 of them on me at once, and killed all but one before I died, and the reason I did was because there was just to much to pay attention to at one time with the lack luster Wow UI. I probably could of pulled that one out if I had just torpedoed out for a sec... But I guess running away for a sec isn't really tanking.

Problem is I am fairly confident had I had that exact same pull with the DK I'm almost certain I would of killed them all near full HP cuz of Bone Storm. Is pally really doing that well though compared to the DK?

[Deleted]

well, the fact that there were no changes at all to brewmaster (every other tank got changes) makes me believe that this might be the final iteration of monk, which would be quite sad (since damage wise we are lacking severely behind the other tanks)

[Ultramad]

I wouldn't really look into a lack of changes as them being completely done. Tuning takes time. However if there are deficiencies make sure to record them and get them on the forums asap with evidence.

[Daggerd]

Also when I get back I'm intending to start getting more informational stuff in the form of videos out to assist with transitioning into Legion since there's a bit of change going on between the spec rework and shifting of powermore into the hands of your healers.

Would love to see some content from a reasonable human being (Sunnier can't be the only one out there!) instead of all the melodramatic and dick-measuring bullshit that has been all over this thread lately. Enjoy your honeymoon!

[stross01]

well, the fact that there were no changes at all to brewmaster (every other tank got changes) makes me believe that this might be the final iteration of monk, which would be quite sad (since damage wise we are lacking severely behind the other tanks)

I'm doing a colossal amount of damage in mythic gear. How much dps are other tanks doing?

"Severely" lacking while still competing with dps specs in dps doesn't seem like a lack at all.

Would love to see some content from a reasonable human being (Sunnier can't be the only one out there!) instead of all the melodramatic and dick-measuring bullshit that has been all over this thread lately. Enjoy your honeymoon!

Discounting someone based on their delivery method is short-sighted. Just because it's not packaged like Icy Veins doesn't mean it has no value.

[Ardlec]

Looking forward to mythics, unfortunately it looks like I have to be 835+ to do any mythics from the trade chat spam. >.<

If you get to around 820-825 ilvl, you can tank Mythic VH. Just form a group yourself. VH doesnt save you. If you are really undergeared you can just spam the first boss (Using switches to power through trash, and then resetting the instance after the first boss dies), but this gets old quickly. On both of my tanks I started created mythic dungeon groups at around 825 ilvl, spamming VH until I was at around 835 and then doing Mythic+ to get to 845ish.

[Leblue]

Forming your own groups will be easily the best way by far since there's enough people in there that it's going to look a lot like live in how groups are run vs having a smaller group more allowing of a closer to minimum ilvl due to the smaller pool of players. If you really want a good idea of things too and aren't aiming to push high keystone I'd grab as many 820ish people since it'll be more accurate than a group of all but yourself out gearing it.

[redfella]

Tanking in Legion might be back on the table for me, it makes me kinda happy, even thought I was looking forward to playing DPS. Now I just have to start catching up on Monk/DK/DH forums for relevant info about current balance. Still no beta invite.

Any good recent vids to start off from? I just went through the two FinalBoss BrM videos and things are looking a bit shaky (and I didn't really agree on some of his points as to what might be good abilities and what aren't).

[Deleted]

So, after the PTR started today we'll probably see no future changes (until the OP Buff after BRM failed in every way during Legion) what means:

- we'll go live with crap talents (lv 100 talents are a joke since we're relesed during Alpha)
- we'll go live with a laughable artifact trait - 3 second of getting missed may seems cool paperwise, but this can't compare to any flat 25%+++ with 6 sec+ duration DR
- we'll go live as the only tank with (baseline) massive downtimes - Keep in mind: We're an agile class!
- we'll go live as the only tank without any kind of short-cooldown DR
- we'll go live without any new stuff. Everything what's new is still ingame. Because demon hunter will get all cool stuff and all what's making a monk in the past
- we'll go live as the only tank without any raidsupport
- we'll go live with a linked AM - Which is purely garbage and goes complete against the concept of active Mitigation

I don't see a reason why blizzard got a shit about any BRM feedback.
I mean seriously, since the 1st day of getting implemented we told Blizz that our "rotation" is chunky as hell and feels wrong, especially for a leather wearing, mobile class.
We told them that a linked AM isn't unique nor fun.
We showed them ways to improve us without being OP and keeping the class fantasy.
There only answer Expel Harm and nerfs. Cool.

[Leblue]

So, after the PTR started today we'll probably see no future changes (until the OP Buff after BRM failed in every way during Legion) what means:

- we'll go live with crap talents (lv 100 talents are a joke since we're relesed during Alpha)

Outside of the 100 talents I think our talents overall aren't that bad. A couple could stand to be baseline because of how nice they are, but that could be swung around as an argument for being good talents as well. It's just rather unfortunate that our least interesting and most boring tier ends up being 100.

- we'll go live with a laughable artifact trait - 3 second of getting missed may seems cool paperwise, but this can't compare to any flat 25%+++ with 6 sec+ duration DR

The artifact previously was laughable, but now it's going to range from okay to potentially overpowered based on what you're using it for i.e. empowered melee swings. I mean yeah there'll be times w3 want that 20% or so DR, but two melee swings of damage is potentially a lot and could give breathing roo. To your healers and let your stagger drop some before being reset by the next swing that lands.

- we'll go live as the only tank with (baseline) massive downtimes - Keep in mind: We're an agile class!

I know a lot of people that hated losing a filler and justifiably so, but saying massive down times is blatant hyperbole unless you're running 0 haste and literally as many passive as you can as to not have to have any extra buttons. Taking all active talents and a bit of haste gives a decent APM that I think players who are willing to give it a chance or even hated having tiger palm as a filler will enjoy. I expect the loss of a filler to push some people to Demon Hunter though, no doubt.

- we'll go live as the only tank without any kind of short-cooldown DR

While myself and others would love that short cooldown ability like we had with guard, the question of do we actually need it is there. The talents Dampen Hamr and Diffuse Magic do exist and with stagger affecting everything right now, I'm unsure if it's needed or simply a remnant of always wanting our own version of barkskin. I'd take one, but normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, and world content haven't made them feel needed. Raid testing obviously may show otherwise.

- we'll go live without any new stuff. Everything what's new is still ingame. Because demon hunter will get all cool stuff and all what's making a monk in the past

They got their own version of roll and a talented guard. What other monk things are they taking from us, because it looks a lot more like they pulled stuff from multiple tanks.

- we'll go live as the only tank without any raidsupport

Like? We've got a castable speed boost, the ability to have an aoe stun or be the best tank at taking streaming adds, and potential trickle raid healing from chi wave or chi burst. What are you looking for in raid utility because if you really want something in another area, you might need to check out another class.

- we'll go live with a linked AM - Which is purely garbage and goes complete against the concept of active Mitigation

Brewmaster defenses have always shared a resource, but now the trimming of chi is gone and the resource of time has been condensed into two abilities. To further this, skillful use of the brews isn't going to be a problem in 99% of what people do anyway and there's testing to be done still with raid bosses and how it fares relative to other tanks. If you really hate the system, it's a bit late for BrM unfortunately to have any sort of major change.

I don't see a reason why blizzard got a shit about any BRM feedback.
I mean seriously, since the 1st day of getting implemented we told Blizz that our "rotation" is chunky as hell and feels wrong, especially for a leather wearing, mobile class.
We told them that a linked AM isn't unique nor fun.
We showed them ways to improve us without being OP and keeping the class fantasy.
There only answer Expel Harm and nerfs. Cool.

Saying something is clunky is pretty vague unless you really nail it down. I've personally come to enjoy the new rotation and don't find it clunky at all. If you don't like a linked AM then you've got other flavors of the tanking ice cream. Complaining about numerical nerfs is pretty pointless unless it drastically breaks something i.e. keg smash does less damage than tiger palm.

Finally, Expel Harm was major. It was something that a lot of people pushed for and suggested ways to work with their focusing on gift of the ox because that's what they wanted even if we the players didn't necessarily want gift of the ox to be core to our healing. Fixing how they spawned and expand to a talent to focus on that was a result of player feedback. Players and Devs won't agree about everything and there's plenty they'll screw up and plenty we may miss, but right now things aren't bad at all.

[stross01]

- we'll go live with crap talents (lv 100 talents are a joke since we're relesed during Alpha)

I can agree with you here. It doesn't really matter which 100 talent you take right now, as you'll never really notice the impact of any of them outside of a log after raid.

- we'll go live with a laughable artifact trait - 3 second of getting missed may seems cool paperwise, but this can't compare to any flat 25%+++ with 6 sec+ duration DR

3 seconds of 100% damage reduction is better than 6 seconds of 25%. I'd rank this ability up there among the greatest ever added. In a mythic dungeon, it's like having a third stun that doesn't share a DR.

- we'll go live as the only tank with (baseline) massive downtimes - Keep in mind: We're an agile class!

If you take Rushing Jade Wind (which is still visual garbage and kinda terrible still), you should have zero downtime. More importantly, a little downtime isn't a bad thing. Like saving a couple of seconds on a Keg Smash for another mob to get in so that Breath of Fire works, etc.

- we'll go live as the only tank without any kind of short-cooldown DR

This may seem accurate, but it's not. It's just all one button now. Shield Block, Shield Barrier, Guard, Divine Protection, etc wrapped into one single button.

- we'll go live without any new stuff. Everything what's new is still ingame. Because demon hunter will get all cool stuff and all what's making a monk in the past

Blackout Strike is pretty neat, I guess. The still-broken drinking animations kinda suck. Niuzao doing physical aoe kinda sucks. Stagger breaking most quest interactions is new and fresh.

- we'll go live as the only tank without any raidsupport

This is kind of a tricky category. Would you count Leg Sweep as raid support? Or Provoke? Or Statue?

- we'll go live with a linked AM - Which is purely garbage and goes complete against the concept of active Mitigation

Meh.

I mean seriously, since the 1st day of getting implemented we told Blizz that our "rotation" is chunky as hell and feels wrong, especially for a leather wearing, mobile class.

This is a good question. It was one of the most analyzed and thoroughly-responded-to things in all of the beta feedback for any class/spec in any expansion. I think it's less about what could be done and more about their ultra-stance on "we're right and you're playing our game wrong".

There only answer Expel Harm and nerfs. Cool.

Expel Harm is still so fucking buggy 4 builds later that it hurts my head.

- - - Updated - - -

While myself and others would love that short cooldown ability like we had with guard, the question of do we actually need it is there. The talents Dampen Hamr and Diffuse Magic do exist and with stagger affecting everything right now, I'm unsure if it's needed or simply a remnant of always wanting our own version of barkskin. I'd take one, but normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, and world content haven't made them feel needed. Raid testing obviously may show otherwise.

Dampen Harm and Diffuse Magic are kinda poop now. It's difficult to get the big hits into the Dampen because of how we mitigate damage now. They're just all absorbed by melee. While Diffuse is still potent, if it doesn't directly stop you from dying from that big magic hit, Healing Elixir is still better.

They got their own version of roll and a talented guard. What other monk things are they taking from us, because it looks a lot more like they pulled stuff from multiple tanks.

Fast-paced rotation, healing globes that spawn frequently and do less per orb, and a quick ranged attack with with high threat.

We've got a castable speed boost, the ability to have an aoe stun or be the best tank at taking streaming adds, and potential trickle raid healing from chi wave or chi burst. What are you looking for in raid utility because if you really want something in another area, you might need to check out another class.

I hope you're joking about the speed boost. That ability will probably be the absolute last one obtained by any progression Brm. Also, when you say 'trickle', I think you mean 'seep'. Chi Burst heals for less than it does in Warlords, even with a full mastery build. It also it hits every single pet, every guardian, every everything, so I suspect is AOE caps.

Brewmaster defenses have always shared a resource, but now the trimming of chi is gone and the resource of time has been condensed into two abilities. To further this, skillful use of the brews isn't going to be a problem in 99% of what people do anyway and there's testing to be done still with raid bosses and how it fares relative to other tanks. If you really hate the system, it's a bit late for BrM unfortunately to have any sort of major change.

Elusive Brew isn't shared with Guard. Guard isn't shared with Expel Harm. Gift of the Ox isn't shared with anything. Some of them work off of each other, but never shared. What sharing are you talking about?

Saying something is clunky is pretty vague unless you really nail it down. I've personally come to enjoy the new rotation and don't find it clunky at all. If you don't like a linked AM then you've got other flavors of the tanking ice cream. Complaining about numerical nerfs is pretty pointless unless it drastically breaks something i.e. keg smash does less damage than tiger palm.

This topic is literally, not figuratively, not anecdotally, the most talked about topic in the entire alpha/beta feedback thread's existence. There was very little that wasn't elaborated on to the point of 'dead horse'. The 'vague' excuse can probably depart from this world forever. While yes, there are other tanks, some people are more attached to their characters than you are. There are BOP items that can't be transferred, there are raid structures that cannot be changed, and some people just like the way they look.

Finally, Expel Harm was major. It was something that a lot of people pushed for and suggested ways to work with their focusing on gift of the ox because that's what they wanted even if we the players didn't necessarily want gift of the ox to be core to our healing. Fixing how they spawned and expand to a talent to focus on that was a result of player feedback. Players and Devs won't agree about everything and there's plenty they'll screw up and plenty we may miss, but right now things aren't bad at all.

I feel like you've lost objectivity regarding Brm. If you're saying 'everything is fine, everything is perfect', does that not seem odd to you? Are you saying that Blizzard caught the lightning on the first try? There's an incredible amount of room for improvement.

[Ampere]

It's still really dumb that Stagger interrupts our casts/channels and there's no way to full clear it anymore. That's probably what bothers me the most right now and it's been that way for months

It's like having a 10 second wait period to mount or loot a quest item after combat lol. And I'm supposed to enjoy this spec when doing quests?

[stross01]

It's still really dumb that Stagger interrupts our casts/channels and there's no way to full clear it anymore. That's probably what bothers me the most right now and it's been that way for months

It's like having a 10 second wait period to mount or loot a quest item after combat lol. And I'm supposed to enjoy this spec when doing quests?

There's a world quest in Azsuna, in the blue dragon cave, with the worms. There are rocks, that you pick up and drop on holes, that make you move slowly. They are not player-specific, so you have to compete with everyone else. They have a slow spawn rate, while the mobs have a very quick spawn rate. Stagger makes you drop the rocks every time it ticks. Waiting 10 seconds next to a rock, hoping someone doesn't pick it up, is pretty heartbreaking.

Quest took a pretty long time at peak hours.