LFR: Success or Failure?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I see this as Blizzard backing off designing for that last argument, as the cost was too high.

It isn't an argument. It is a statement. Which I am expressing that it really doesn't matter because it is a real no issue anyway. It is just someone people use to justify something that they don't want to do but will choose to do because they feel they have to or even really want to but don't want to admit it. If I do not want to run LFR then I do not que up. I did it in MoP for the first tier. Then for the ToT tier I said fuck that and didn't. Pretty simple. The guild progressed at just about the same rate anyway.

[hyphnos]

Or the new mythic system.

I honestly don't think rewards are going to be as interesting as people think they will be. It is kind of like how a mythic raider views gear after progression. Sure it is there but most honestly don't care if it goes to a buyer.

I think to much value is being placed on gear as a source of investment if it was current mythic dungeons would be the most popular option since they can drop mythic quality raid gear. Most don't even tend to knowledge they exist however.

We will have to see we are getting a bit of topic though with dungeons in this thread now.

Mythic dungeons are not popular for one of the same reasons that raiding is not popular - it requires some organization, even if that organization is just putting together a group finder group. I know it's hard for people who are not put off by the organizational requirements of raiding to understand, but most people don't want to interact directly with other people even in an MMO. A great many people enjoy being in a crowd or around other people but don't necessarily want to interact with them or talk to them or whatever. People do things all the time to be around other people (see movies, go to festivals and whatnot), but if those activities required you to gather up X people and do them at a specific time, their appeal would collapse. The only reason even half the players in WoW raid is because they can queue for LFR and essentially play the game around people without being forced to interact with them.

Mythic dungeons and the new mythic plus system are and will be largely unused except by people who are already doing organized content (raiders). If the game relied on the subs of players willing to organize groups, it would cease to exist in very short order.

[Glorious Leader]

Mythic dungeons are not popular for one of the same reasons that raiding is not popular - it requires some organization, even if that organization is just putting together a group finder group. I know it's hard for people who are not put off by the organizational requirements of raiding to understand, but most people don't want to interact directly with other people even in an MMO. A great many people enjoy being in a crowd or around other people but don't necessarily want to interact with them or talk to them or whatever. People do things all the time to be around other people (see movies, go to festivals and whatnot), but if those activities required you to gather up X people and do them at a specific time, their appeal would collapse. The only reason even half the players in WoW raid is because they can queue for LFR and essentially play the game around people without being forced to interact with them.

Mythic dungeons and the new mythic plus system are and will be largely unused except by people who are already doing organized content (raiders). If the game relied on the subs of players willing to organize groups, it would cease to exist in very short order.

Agreed. I get the feeling it will simple be another Avenue for raiders to progress which is fine but it won't strike the casual itch so to speak. Lfr with tier might dk a better job but we all know what they're avoiding doing would work. Tier trinkets and weapons on a vendor for a currency at a decent pace of aquisition with the currency obtainable in raid dungeon or world content. Deterministic characther progression (just like lvling) through multiple avenues (again just like lvling) but all towards the same goal (once again just like lvling). Artifact weapons should emulate this fairly well hopefully.

[Osmeric]

It isn't an argument. It is a statement. Which I am expressing that it really doesn't matter because it is a real no issue anyway. It is just someone people use to justify something that they don't want to do but will choose to do because they feel they have to or even really want to but don't want to admit it. If I do not want to run LFR then I do not que up. I did it in MoP for the first tier. Then for the ToT tier I said fuck that and didn't. Pretty simple. The guild progressed at just about the same rate anyway.

It was an argument for a certain game design. "Blizzard, don't include reward I might want in LFR, because then I'd be forced to do LFR, and I would be unhappy." Blizzard apparently agreed with that argument, and now apparently no longer finds it convincing.

There are lots of other rewards outside raiding in Legion that raiders may find themselves compelled to chase. Their presence reinforces the conclusion that the argument-from-raider-convenience no longer has much sway at Blizzard.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It was an argument for a certain game design. "Blizzard, don't include reward I might want in LFR, because then I'd be forced to do LFR, and I would be unhappy." Blizzard apparently agreed with that argument, and now apparently no longer finds it convincing.

There are lots of other rewards outside raiding in Legion that raiders may find themselves compelled to chase. Their presence reinforces the conclusion that the argument-from-raider-convenience no longer has much sway at Blizzard.

Which is a good thing. I don't think it makes a lot of sense for a company to design stuff with "I hope people that don't want to do this don't. So let's make it so shit they won't" right? Mother fuckers have got to just have their self control to either decide to join in on an LFR or not. I say this as a person that likely will run some LFRs with some friends and family. Will likely run a few to top off a tier set bonus if needed. It might even trigger me. But I also accept that it was my choice if it does (odds are it won't because I like playing WoW in general). I won't be blaming LFR, the people in LFR, or Blizzard because ultimately I made the choice to que. It is a really simple concept a lot of people need to figure out and I say this as a true blooded mythic raider.

[MrShroud]

LFR is one of the key factors responsible for the gradual casualization of this game. That being said, it should be removed. Would rather see this game dead than completely casualized- at least then it would still have dignity.

[Jerichofr]

LFR is one of the key factors responsible for the gradual casualization of this game. That being said, it should be removed. Would rather see this game dead than completely casualized- at least then it would still have dignity.

Casualization > Exclusivity

[MrShroud]

Casualization > Exclusivity

No, and the casuals HAVE made this game worse by making it easier.

I will NOT spend my time teaching others when I can better myself.

Blizzard does not force raiding... this alone is impossible because 99% of the community are noob idiots.

It has never been about helping people get better, nor will it ever be. Top players all learned their class, you can too if you want- if not, don't complain.

Self-worth over a game? I don't think so. I'm just sick of the desperate need to be included that has arisen in this community over time. Having something that other's don't is enjoyment and has nothing to do with self worth.

The highest level of this game is not for you if you are a casual. Stick to your 9-5.

[Deleted]

Also, who would be satisfied facerolling this sort of raid content ? Who would find it genuinely fun ? It's a group content dumbed down to cater for player who don't like group content anyway. Nobody could enjoy that.

Yeah that is also what i thought, that it was a bad end game for casuals, so i said maybe it would be better to remove it and replace it with another end game content for non-raiding players, but to my surprise a lot of people in these forums said they were having fun with it, and they did not want it removed and replaced with other end game content, so yes it seems there are people who enjoy it.

[Osmeric]

Yeah that is also what i thought, that it was a bad end game for casuals, so i said maybe it would be better to remove it and replace it with another end game content for non-raiding players, but to my surprise a lot of people in these forums said they were having fun with it, and they did not want it removed and replaced with other end game content, so yes it seems there are people who enjoy it.

There's also the concern that "replac[ing] it with another end game content for non-raiding players" won't work economically, unless you're talking about ditching all raiding. The marginal cost of adding LFR to a raiding endgame is likely quite small.

[Deleted]

What people tend to forget was that the old normal mode wad originally the harder 25 man mode from wotlk. When they merged loot from 10/25 man into one format they lost the easy 10 man raid
Beer league scene.

I'm not saying otherwise, and the current flex/normal mode is the old 10 man normal mode content from WOTLK everybody was happy about (on a difficulty standpoint).

Mythic dungeons are not popular for one of the same reasons that raiding is not popular - it requires some organization, even if that organization is just putting together a group finder group. I know it's hard for people who are not put off by the organizational requirements of raiding to understand, but most people don't want to interact directly with other people even in an MMO.

No, raiding and perhaps mythic dungeons aren't popular because the current game system is mostly designed for solo play, making group play not as enjoyable as it used to be on hard content. Back in vanilla/TBC, it was a chore to play solo with some specs, but playing in a group was enjoyable (and almost everybody wanted to raid, except people who were playing wow for PvP).

LFR is a band aid fix for that, and it would clearly be better for blizzard to make low man content more relevant (which they are doing in legion), rather than forcing people to raid.

[Speedlance]

LFR is a huge success but you guys still think LFR is like random heroic Que lol, it's not.

[Lotus Victoria]

The idea is noble, but the execution is terrible.

[Sansnom]

No, and the casuals HAVE made this game worse by making it easier.

"Casuals" made this game successful.

Self-worth over a game? I don't think so. I'm just sick of the desperate need to be included that has arisen in this community over time. Having something that other's don't is enjoyment and has nothing to do with self worth.

Your post suggest you do value your self worth and also in the video game. As you said, having something that others do not is enjoyment.

Finally, why are you so scared posting on your principle account? I find it hard to believe you are someone who just stumbled on this.

[zaino]

Mythic dungeons are not popular for one of the same reasons that raiding is not popular - it requires some organization, even if that organization is just putting together a group finder group. I know it's hard for people who are not put off by the organizational requirements of raiding to understand, but most people don't want to interact directly with other people even in an MMO. A great many people enjoy being in a crowd or around other people but don't necessarily want to interact with them or talk to them or whatever. People do things all the time to be around other people (see movies, go to festivals and whatnot), but if those activities required you to gather up X people and do them at a specific time, their appeal would collapse. The only reason even half the players in WoW raid is because they can queue for LFR and essentially play the game around people without being forced to interact with them.

Mythic dungeons and the new mythic plus system are and will be largely unused except by people who are already doing organized content (raiders). If the game relied on the subs of players willing to organize groups, it would cease to exist in very short order.

something something instant gratification era?

[Stormlance]

"Casuals" made this game successful.



Your post suggest you do value your self worth and also in the video game. As you said, having something that others do not is enjoyment.

Finally, why are you so scared posting on your principle account? I find it hard to believe you are someone who just stumbled on this.

Casual today doesn't mean what it did in 2007.

Hell the crowd that used to be considered casual back in vanilla and tbc would be considered hardcore by today's standards and honestly we were better pff then.

[Deleted]

I think it was a failure.

Before LFR people tried to pug raids. There were heroic raids that weren't puggable and there were normal raids. Pugs for normal raids were always up on realm's trade channels, those who wanted to see raids could do it by simply joining one of groups. It didn't take long and didn't require much effort. It helped created realm communities: find new friends, find guilds, create connections between guilds.

LFR ruined it. People who wanted to see raids could see raids by clicking a button, without ever talking to anyone. Amount of players available for harder modes greatly diminished, killing pugging on many realms. Eventually it killed realm communities.

Anonymous match making should not exist in MMO. It changes game to anonymous single player experience.

[Heltoray]

don't confuse lfr with raiding please. It is just something that look slike a series of boss fights when you know it really is just... nothing.

[Deleted]

"Casuals" made this game successful.

You and player you are quoting are confusing casuals with bad players that confused MMORPG with single player game. Casual doesn't mean incompetent. Casual doesn't mean anti-social.

LFD/LFR are built for incompetent anti-social players. Not for casuals.

The idea is noble, but the execution is terrible.

There is nothing noble about anonymous match making in MMORPG. WoW was massive success because it encouraged creating bonds between players, while being friendly to all kinds of players. Players stayed in game because of friends they made in game.

Anonymous match making turned game into single player game.

- - - Updated - - -

don't confuse lfr with raiding please. It is just something that look slike a series of boss fights when you know it really is just... nothing.

Problem is LFR allows to see same content as raiding. Different difficulty doesn't mean new content. It also affects pool of available players for other modes, which had snowball effect of dying realm communities.

I think whole modes thing is a nonsense that doesn't belong in MMORPG. It is anti-social, it is splitting player base. It is cheap way of giving impression of having more content, while making less content. Character progression should be linear - killed one boss, ready for next boss, not for same boss you killed before but with more hit points and extra dance moves.

[shimerra]

I think it was a failure.

Before LFR people tried to pug raids. There were heroic raids that weren't puggable and there were normal raids. Pugs for normal raids were always up on realm's trade channels, those who wanted to see raids could do it by simply joining one of groups. It didn't take long and didn't require much effort. It helped created realm communities: find new friends, find guilds, create connections between guilds.

LFR ruined it. People who wanted to see raids could see raids by clicking a button, without ever talking to anyone. Amount of players available for harder modes greatly diminished, killing pugging on many realms. Eventually it killed realm communities.

Anonymous match making should not exist in MMO. It changes game to anonymous single player experience.

I've pugged more in WoD then I have in any expansion and thanks to being able invite friends/people from other realms it's easier. Hell I even lucked into 2 random guild groups and have quite a few friends I never would've met otherwise without the system.

I always had my serious raid team and a buddy raid team and usually a GDKP group. My RL buddy raid team relied almost exclusively on pugging anywhere from 1-5 people depending on who could make what when. LFR never killed our ability to pug and we always had to pug. All it did was mean that during off raid times we que'd up to get a trinket or tier piece to complete our sets. As I continued to play the issue was always that there either less non-raid content to consume or I consume it too quickly. For a while I enjoyed only having to log in to raid and other times it was annoying having nothing to do which was distinctly different from eagerly awaiting raid time but still having things to keep myself busy. LFR was never anything more than a way to help gear up my alts to pug raids or flesh out a set bonus for my main. It had no discernible impact on my ability to pug or the community I raided with. If I didn't want to do LFR I didn't easy as that and sometimes raiding LFR was too boring for the rewards to entice me to do it. Sometimes it was fun as hell solo tanking the last boss of MSV.


My worst pug experiences were in Vanilla before I'd established myself in a good raiding guild. Spending 4 hours spamming LFG, trade, and then another hour and a half waiting for people to get to the instance. The main things that changed how easy it was to pug was where we were in the content cycle and whether or not you had a base group of friends to start the group. Otherwise was basically the same pre and post LFR. People keep saying this or that axe'd realm communities but that's the easy/lazy answer. Wow having less to do outside of raiding killed communities. The game getting old killed communities. Content droughts failing to encourage people to stay subscribed killed communities. LFR is just the lazy man's scapegoat.

The issue is I think you confuse a lot of the people who enjoy LFR as people who care enough to do Pugs and that without LFR they automatically want to PuG. They're usually either people who think pugging is cancer and just wanna see the content/get gear or people who are using LFR as an extra place to get the gear they need to pug.