No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[MasterHamster]

They´re trolling. I think this had benn proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Only trolls have differing opinions.

Well you see. they think they are blizzards pet dogs and the game is the track in the agility contest that they must run and follow happily without question anything, because since blizzard makes this track for them it must be proper design.

And people like these helps blizzard destroying our favorite game for us paying customers to enjoy never realizing that its not blizzards job to ground us and put limitations on us. Blizzards job is to make us like the game to achieve their ultimate goal to get our money. I won't pay for being a dog, sorry.

It's obvious trying to discuss design choices from a game design PoV does not work here. This is a circlejerk and everyone who disagrees are trolls or shills.

I've given what I think is a pretty balanced view on WHY I think the way I do, how game design comes into play, and why neither I nor game devs in general believe giving everyone everything they think they want bodes well for the longevity of a sub-based MMO.

Legion will hopefully rectify the "optional and freedom" mistakes of WoD, and I hope overall more people will find more things to do and feel satisfaction in progressing outside of raids again in Legion.

But if not, and it's down to once again yelling whether or not flight is needed as a bandaid on a festered wound, well guess I'll enjoy the popcorn for another two years of conspiracy theories regarding how basic MMO elements like fighting mobs, farming materials, getting Reputation and RNG loot are corporate scams.

[Connll]

Only trolls have differing opinions.

I tried to find anything that makes any sense in here so I could reply, yet found nothing.

So congratulations for showing the essence of the anti-flier argument.

[MasterHamster]

I tried to find anything that makes any sense in here so I could reply, yet found nothing.

So congratulations for showing the essence of the anti-flier argument.

No worries, with your attention span no one expected you to anyway.

At least I can give credit to the other active posters in this thread, they're discussing their viewpoints thoroughly and not just falling back on snide little two sentence posts. You however I'm surprised each time you actually form an actual paragraph. Maybe if you tried reading posts further than your own average of 3 sentences, you'd find something comprehensive.

[Ripitgood]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people don't mind a company stealing their time.... as long as they don't realize that their time is being stolen.
I did NEVER say that it was ONLY flight that made the subs free fall to da ground. But flight had an impact. Everybody in not seeing that is in blind denial. The Number nosedived at the same time in which Blizzard sneakily try to get the announcement through that flight won't come back ever. EVERYBODY who things that flight hasn't been a big factor for a lot of people (and i don't mean the fake "a lot" that people bring up when talking about being anti flight) to quit that time is either blind, dump or both.

Besides.... it makes me laugh to see you write as if flight would have been an isolated, minor feature of the game. Flight has been a UPS (Unique Selling Point) of WoW for many years. I know you don't see it that way, and maybe some others. But that doesn't take away from the fact that to take away a feature as popular for the masses as flight (the reason why doesn't matter at all) is a very stupid idea. And it doesn't bring many people to stay subbed longer..... as WoD has proven very well.

Flight alone doesn't make a game successful. That is right. But in this case, flight has had it's fair share in succeeding the game. They explicitly advertised the game with flight in BC, and again in Cata. Blizzard KNEW about the importance of flight for the game. They first thought about taking it out after many had already left the game to slow down the pace..... but they have never been so wrong. The backlash was huge (second to real-ID) and so was the number of cancelations at that time. But you can tell that flight has been a big part of the loss by how quick they changed from "never again" to "we bring it back" in mere 2 weeks.

So saying "flight isn't important to the World of Warcraft" is ignorant at best, but very easily about being stupid.

You using a straw argument to justify your reasoning. Subs have fallen because the game has become a sub-par MMO in recent years. WoD cultivating with it's embarrassing...well everything.

Let me take you back to BC. When the game was FAR more difficult and time consuming than it is today. Flight was added two fold;

A) We're in a broken Outland, It was assumed (Dev's Vision) that we'd need to scale some distances our Ground Mounts of old couldn't manage
B) A Gold Sync, While also (Most importantly), a LARGE part of attunement.
C) A wonderful Faction with a very specific type of Mount (Netherwing).

That's it. LK Came out, Flight was gated behind another gold sync, as well giving us the odd mount from drops, factions, crafting etc. NEVER did Blizz parade on the ability to fly in Northrend.

Then came Cata, They did in fact say "Hey you can fly on Azeroth!" That's because most of the population wants to fly past the stuff they've done. And it would require alot of work to make Azeroth ready for flight. Sense we would be fighting in Azeroth in Cata it made sense and worked, and was likely a very good selling point (Physical bullet point of Cata). But after that, Flight has always been an "extra" or a "relief" to in-game mechanics. You could never JUST fly. Mop was gated behind gold.

Personally, I'm fine with it being behind a chunk of gold = to the amount we make in questing. A - Ok. I think that flight takes away from the game as a whole. In BC it made sense to spend that 1k gold to get a 60%!!! Mount, Because I wanted to to The Mechanar/TK instances, Along with being able to gain access to dailies and other areas. The Epic mount was a milestone and achievement. That let you work on Netherwing and other cool stuff. If you didn't have epic you still used a ground mount, or used a flight path, then hoped on that slow as but awesome gryphon to get to your objective. That made sense, it was cool, and if you worked up to it. You got 280%. Which was just better in every way.

Now, I know we can't go back to that. The cat is out of the bag as they say. Which is fine. But you need to realize there is A LOT more to the game than Flying. And Flying does in fact take AWAY a lot of that experience for a lot of players. I'm ok with getting it a patch or two in. Behind some gold etc. Or hell not at all. But, requiring it for a game is naive and just silly.

It removes ALOT of the content and things to do. IF you just fly over it all. Period!. I personally don't care about time. I play WoW for fun. IF that means I get 5 mins in or 2 hours. So be it.

[Connll]

No worries, with your attention span no one expected you to anyway.

Why yes, my posts usually have length and complexity proportional to the ones I am responding.

You however I'm surprised each time you actually form an actual paragraph.

Usually, because every once in a while, I no choice but to overvalue things. Giving the correct worth to that cute statement would result in a one-letter reply.

[Mafic]

Someone mentioned that in other games you gain XP every time you fight your way through mobs...that is the Korean/Asian grinder model where every unit of time is important to gaining XP as leveling is the journey and not the end of that type of MMORPG progression.

WoW uses a model where leveling to level cap happens within days, so having to do the ground and pound game play on mobs that offer no value and are weaker makes no sense. Even with the scaling in Legion...players running around with legendaries invalidates the point of the ground and pound game play.

And the justifications for Suramar are becoming increasingly vapid as Watcher confirmed that the two dungeons unlocked by doing Suramar content will be mythic only dungeons.

So why is flying being delayed again?

[satimy]

There is no middle ground, there have been 0 benefits of flying being removed.

[Connll]

There is no middle ground, there have been 0 benefits of flying being removed.

Before WoD, there was (a little) reason for discussing the anti-flying position. After all, even though we could make reasonable predictions(which came true, by the way) we didn´t know EXACTLY what would happen. Maybe the WoW devs could fulfill their "promises".

After WoD? Every "benefit" predicted to come due to Flight´s removal failed to become a reality, and its absence made some other aspects worse. And I am not even touching the less than honest way the devs dealt with this mess.

[Bun-Bun]

It's nothing like that at all. Watch the video.
Some people complain for the sake of it, I swear

No, you're just the one who refuses to accept the views of other when it doesn't agree with your own narrow minded opinions.

FPs are not gameplay. FPs break immersion and add nothing to the game. They waste time and gold and frankly piss me off when we had a feature that actually was engaging but got taken away for no good reason.

[bufferunderrun]

Only trolls have differing opinions.



It's obvious trying to discuss design choices from a game design PoV does not work here. This is a circlejerk and everyone who disagrees are trolls or shills.

I've given what I think is a pretty balanced view on WHY I think the way I do, how game design comes into play, and why neither I nor game devs in general believe giving everyone everything they think they want bodes well for the longevity of a sub-based MMO.

Legion will hopefully rectify the "optional and freedom" mistakes of WoD, and I hope overall more people will find more things to do and feel satisfaction in progressing outside of raids again in Legion.

But if not, and it's down to once again yelling whether or not flight is needed as a bandaid on a festered wound, well guess I'll enjoy the popcorn for another two years of conspiracy theories regarding how basic MMO elements like fighting mobs, farming materials, getting Reputation and RNG loot are corporate scams.

in reality you are not discussing design choices because there aren't, flying has not been changed or reworked blizzard had simply removed it and given nothing in return that is; in the end you are agreeing with that and we not.
If blizzard took it's time reworking it then we could discuss the design choices and agree/disagree with how they modified it or how it impact the game etc; if those who don't like flying in it's current iteration were asking blizzard to change it then that was understandable but being happy for something being removed always left me dumbfounded.

[SirCowdog]

It's obvious trying to discuss design choices from a game design PoV does not work here. This is a circlejerk and everyone who disagrees are trolls or shills.

The reason why a few consistent posters in this thread are referred to as trolls is because the arguments they make aren't based on any kind of sound logic. They generally boil down to some form of "It's Blizzard's game, like it or gtfo." or one of the other refuted explanations, just with a different twist to it. One of them, in particular, tends to completely ignore whatever points are being made, and twists the meaning of everything to suit his own views.

All in all there's a LOT of unwillingness to accept that both sides might have some valid points. That's why I try to push for changes that will suit both sides. Address the root of the problem instead of a simple fly/no-fly argument.

- - - Updated - - -

And the justifications for Suramar are becoming increasingly vapid as Watcher confirmed that the two dungeons unlocked by doing Suramar content will be mythic only dungeons.

So why is flying being delayed again?

Wait...when did he confirm that? I mean, Mythics will be easier than they are now due to artifacts and random legendary/titanforged drops, but I don't see the point of having dungeons that's limited to "mythic only". What a waste of dev time.

- - - Updated - - -

Now, I know we can't go back to that. The cat is out of the bag as they say. Which is fine. But you need to realize there is A LOT more to the game than Flying. And Flying does in fact take AWAY a lot of that experience for a lot of players.

And you need to realize that taking away flight ALSO takes away a lot of the experience for a lot of players.

This is the problem I keep seeing over and over from people who are proponents of No-flying. They don't seem to understand that a LOT of people's core enjoyment of WoW stems from being able to fly. Part of it is getting things done quickly, part of it is the base fantasy of flight itself, part of it is the advantage of skipping past parts of the game they find annoying or irritating, or simply having the freedom of movement, and part of it is just not wanting to deal with the metric ton of filler bullshit in the recent open world design.

That's why I keep saying there needs to be changes to the fundamental approach. You can't simplify this issue down to just flying or no-flying, because either way pisses off a LOT of people. The game needs to evolve to accommodate BOTH types of players.

[Mafic]

Watcher said that by gating the dungeons with attunements doing the Suramar content they found players outgearing the dungeon by the time the attunements were completed and the gearing offered was trivial rewards for doing the dungeons once unlocked. So, they deal with the gating of the content by making it mythic exclusive. Meaning, that you have to do the attunement to still play the dungeon and mythic dungeons are unlocked at later dates in the expansion. So, more players waiting to do these dungeons.

Basically, Blizzard is gating things, because they can't slow down players enough. Sums up why they are digging in their heels again with no flying at launch for Legion.

[wing5wong]

No, you're just the one who refuses to accept the views of other when it doesn't agree with your own narrow minded opinions.

FPs are not gameplay. FPs break immersion and add nothing to the game. They waste time and gold and frankly piss me off when we had a feature that actually was engaging but got taken away for no good reason.

The use of FPs in the video is so limited they barely exist.

- - - Updated - - -

The reason why a few consistent posters in this thread are referred to as trolls is because the arguments they make aren't based on any kind of sound logic. They generally boil down to some form of "It's Blizzard's game, like it or gtfo." or one of the other refuted explanations, just with a different twist to it. One of them, in particular, tends to completely ignore whatever points are being made, and twists the meaning of everything to suit his own views.

All in all there's a LOT of unwillingness to accept that both sides might have some valid points. That's why I try to push for changes that will suit both sides. Address the root of the problem instead of a simple fly/no-fly argument.

Differing opinions, especially strong ones, do not equate to trolling.

Ive always heard your complaints with the current system, and agree with many aspects which would improve wow in general.
Like i keep saying though, many of those ideas dont fit within the current legion build.

- - - Updated - - -

Someone mentioned that in other games you gain XP every time you fight your way through mobs...that is the Korean/Asian grinder model where every unit of time is important to gaining XP as leveling is the journey and not the end of that type of MMORPG progression.

WoW uses a model where leveling to level cap happens within days, so having to do the ground and pound game play on mobs that offer no value and are weaker makes no sense. Even with the scaling in Legion...players running around with legendaries invalidates the point of the ground and pound game play.

And the justifications for Suramar are becoming increasingly vapid as Watcher confirmed that the two dungeons unlocked by doing Suramar content will be mythic only dungeons.

So why is flying being delayed again?

Where are you going to fly to if you dont even want to fly to suramar because even that doesnt count as content to you?

- - - Updated - - -

Wait...when did he confirm that? I mean, Mythics will be easier than they are now due to artifacts and random legendary/titanforged drops, but I don't see the point of having dungeons that's limited to "mythic only". What a waste of dev time.

Heroic only dungeons as endgame isnt a new concept though, Mythic is the new Heroic, even in WoD.

- - - Updated - - -

Basically, Blizzard is gating things, because they can't slow down players enough. Sums up why they are digging in their heels again with no flying at launch for Legion.

Whats your solution to slowing down players?
I dont think anything valid has been shown that will prevent players just churning out content as fast as it is launched.

There has to be artificial timegates to allow them to produce anything worth playing

- - - Updated - - -

That's why I keep saying there needs to be changes to the fundamental approach. You can't simplify this issue down to just flying or no-flying, because either way pisses off a LOT of people. The game needs to evolve to accommodate BOTH types of players.

100% agree this is possible. A significant amount of work, yes, but would result in something far better than TBC or Legion.Being realistic though, again, i dont feel it s somehting for legion until possibly a future major content patch,

[SirCowdog]

Watcher said that by gating the dungeons with attunements doing the Suramar content they found players outgearing the dungeon by the time the attunements were completed and the gearing offered was trivial rewards for doing the dungeons once unlocked. So, they deal with the gating of the content by making it mythic exclusive. Meaning, that you have to do the attunement to still play the dungeon and mythic dungeons are unlocked at later dates in the expansion. So, more players waiting to do these dungeons.

Basically, Blizzard is gating things, because they can't slow down players enough. Sums up why they are digging in their heels again with no flying at launch for Legion.

Ok..wut? So not only do you have to do the attunement, but the mythic version of the dungeon isn't available until later on at some arbitrary point in time?

[Eapoe]

Ok..wut? So not only do you have to do the attunement, but the mythic version of the dungeon isn't available until later on at some arbitrary point in time?

Atunements are nothing new, and something a vocal group say they love (Nost thread and any thread that brings them up about the golden days of yore. If Mythics were released at launch, they become less of an alternative/complimenting gear medium Blizz is aiming for and will become more about the feeling of forced content for raiders and PvP'ers from launch day. Once Blizz feels like enough content is cleared in raids or enough equitable time elapsed to clear raids, Mythics will be unlocked...much like the gating of 1 legendary in raids before the 1st mythic kill and only allowing 1 legendary to be equipped until later.

[SirCowdog]

The more gating I hear about, the more glad I am that I'm waiting to see what happens before buying. The entire expansion stinks of cash grab with all this artificial stretching out of the content.

Why are they so afraid to just let people play the game? When did they lose so much confidence in their design that they have to resort to forcing people into it instead of letting it speak for itself?

So disappointed with Blizzard's wow team right now.

[hulkgor]

Some people say the silliest things, wow.

[Boreaz]

The more gating I hear about, the more glad I am that I'm waiting to see what happens before buying. The entire expansion stinks of cash grab with all this artificial stretching out of the content.

This.
I was really tempted to pre-order (as I have done with every other expansion), but now I think I'll just wait a bit and see how things turn out.

[Zalamander]

Well, its pretty simple to describe how I feel WoW expansions has becomes since WoD using pictures and comparing to a resturant.

How WoW expansions used to be:



Now imagine your favorite feature/content being the meat balls and this is how they have becomes.
Flying are meat balls for me.

There is no point in coming early for dinner any more:

[Deleted]

You using a straw argument to justify your reasoning. Subs have fallen because the game has become a sub-par MMO in recent years. WoD cultivating with it's embarrassing...well everything.

Nope.... Subs have been falling because game is old is a straw. And WoW became sub-par BECAUSE of lazy design decisions like removing flight. But game is old doesn't count since they gained 3 million at the start of WoD. That should clearly show you that people want to love this game.

Some people need to understand that something that is not related to the ultimate gameplay purpose (aka getting loot) is still a relevant game mechanic. There doesn't have to be a "get-loot-gamemechanic" for something to be needed for the game.

And again.... it is not a coincidence that millions left after flight being announced to get kicked out of the game for future content. Of course not all of the sub-cancelations have been because of no flight. But a good portion of them very well might be. Blizzard didn't tell what was the number one reason this time like they did in Cata and Mop. So if you think flight doesn't have a massive impact on the games success you are just wrong. Again: not everybody plays for the same reason as you do. And for others flight is more than just a shortcut. And i bet you a fortune that they could rather cut out mythic raiding before cutting out flight. Simply because less people are effected by that step.

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There is no point in coming early for dinner any more:

That is what i said. There is no reason to play from release... other than well being there first temporary, which nobody else cares about. But coming to the party at the last patch grants you more advantages then disadvantages. In WoD it was actually worse: coming back to WoW after the last patch made you see all the stuff that should have been in the game at release, but the patch content is missing this expansion.