The power gap in Legion will be even higher than WoD

[xChurch]

the rewards from prestige are 100% cosmetic
as you have already pointed out, you lose a massive amount of character power each time you reset your prestige level, until you regrind the honor agin

those two things considered, who do you actually think prestige is aimed at? people that play for an hour a week? or people that queue random bgs 24/7? hint, its not the first option hehe

Honestly, looking unique sounds very much like a high-end objective, both for pvp and pve. It's why Mythic tier looks fancier than Heroic/normal tier.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Honestly, looking unique sounds very much like a high-end objective, both for pvp and pve. It's why Mythic tier looks fancier than Heroic/normal tier.

yup high end arena players are going to be falling over themselves to grind honor in battlegrounds to prestige multiple times

pvp prestige is a time investment, nothing else - there's nothing high end about something you can literally afk bot bgs for

[xChurch]

yup high end arena players are going to be falling over themselves to grind honor in battlegrounds to prestige multiple times

pvp prestige is a time investment, nothing else - there's nothing high end about something you can literally afk bot bgs for

That depends though. If people who do nothing but BGs aren't very good, they will need those talents more so meaning they'll be less likely to want to lose them. Random BGs are as much about feeling OP when you're over geared (or talented in this case) as they are about actual pvp. We both know you're speculating on who will or won't do this, I don't see why this needs to continue, we'll find out when it happens but cases could be made for both.

[RedGamer030]

Guess you also call it bananas when you get more than one apple.

Only if it is labelled a banana instead of an apple, like between Legendary and Artifact.

It's still a difference that doesn't exist now,

On Conquest gear you are correct, but there is a chance to receive a Warforged PvP item from the chests...

10% no gear vs full gear

additional 5%-10% no gear vs 50%+ titanforged/warforged gear

additional 15%-25% fresh artifact vs fully levelled artifact

My dog does better math.

[Dizzeeyooo]

My dog does better math.

"I can't argue the points, so I'm going to type random shit"

[dudurududu]

Everyone knows as a fresh 100 if you queue on a BG you are going to get obliterated, but it doesn't matter because you'll be fully geared in 2 days anyways. Now in legion Blizzard has created "pvp templates", so the power difference between a fresh 110 and a fully geared player is minimal. Or is it? You actually have to farm your artifact for months, and on top of that you have to farm your honor talents, and ON TOP OF THAT you gain power from your ilvl. Those things are a HUGE difference in power and it will take a shit ton of time for a new 110 to be on the same level as other players when we are mid xpac.
People with higher ratings will also get the benefit of higher ilvl, wich means there will be an extra power gap between players that doesn't exist now.
Has blizzard commented anything on this?, seems like they tried to solve a minimal problem with a system that has the same flaws but to a much greater extent.

I can take a shit, and smear it over the monitor and it would make more sense than this shit you smeared.

[RedGamer030]

"I can't argue the points, so I'm going to type random shit"

Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo
10% no gear vs full gear

additional 5%-10% no gear vs 50%+ titanforged/warforged gear

additional 15%-25% fresh artifact vs fully levelled artifact

I see exactly what you mean!

[Drakile]

All mmos are time sinks, this is a fact.

The more time you invest the more rewards you get, the better you are + time investment should yield the amount of rewards or grade, it isn't an effort vs talent thing, it's both or none.

People who invest into something and spend time on it will get rewarded more than someone who did not invest time into it, someone who spends time on something while having more talent than someone with no talent should get a reward proportionately to how much talent/ time investment that person has.

You want to tell me people with talent don't need to invest time into something because they are already good ? that is a fallacy.

People with talent have the potential to be good, people who have talent and spent a considerable amount of time honing said talent are good.

Take for example any rank 1 player, I know quite a handful and have played with them ( won't be mentioning myself for this argument as to not be biased ), those R1 players were not R1 from the get-go, they grinded countless hours and practiced comps/ positioning and execution of abilities with said partners so many times until they reached the level they are at, simply because they no longer need to invest time to achieve the highest rating does not mean they did not invest.

Contrary to what OP is saying ( which I am 100% sure is neither good nor invested in actual improvement )wants to achieve rewards that a R1 player gets while doing none of the things mentioned.

And just to be clear, put a team of R1 players with lower ilvl (basic gear )vs a random 1500 team with boosted ilvl and I guarantee you the R1 team will win ( given legion's ilvl gap can only be a 10% stat difference between lowest and higher ilvl in arena ).

In that situation talent is an illusion, from what you just described 'talent' is really just knowledge you get from investing time, anyone who seems 'talented' have generally invested large amounts of time into whatever that talent may be. In a way, at least to me, that means talent is just another word for grinder, or a fast way to say that person spent a ton of time doing whatever that may be, talented could be interchangeable with obsessed

[Salvatore94]

Why people want everything for nothing? I mean if i play casual PvP it's obvious that a real PvP player will devastate me. But it's normal: a PvP player plays PvP and he is geared and skilled.
When i see players getting full conquest gear in 2 or 3 days i really want to quit the game (and i am a PvE player), because if you want to have everything in an easy and fast way then go play on a BTW game and don't annoy older player.
Is like to ask "why older worker with more experience year than me get more money? I have just started to work and i want his money in 2 months".
Come on guys, be smart.

[PrairieChicken]

Why people want everything for nothing? I mean if i play casual PvP it's obvious that a real PvP player will devastate me. But it's normal: a PvP player plays PvP and he is geared and skilled.
When i see players getting full conquest gear in 2 or 3 days i really want to quit the game (and i am a PvE player), because if you want to have everything in an easy and fast way then go play on a BTW game and don't annoy older player.
Is like to ask "why older worker with more experience year than me get more money? I have just started to work and i want his money in 2 months".
Come on guys, be smart.

Gearing up is important in pve, in pvp it is controversial. The serious pvp games all have 0 gear disparity between players because it gives unfair advantage to one side and it goes against fair competition

[wholol]

In that situation talent is an illusion, from what you just described 'talent' is really just knowledge you get from investing time, anyone who seems 'talented' have generally invested large amounts of time into whatever that talent may be. In a way, at least to me, that means talent is just another word for grinder, or a fast way to say that person spent a ton of time doing whatever that may be, talented could be interchangeable with obsessed

You are absolutely correct , talent is a form of knowledge, whether the person be consciously or subconsciously using it, the only thing I would tweak with your statement is that talent is not simply grinding, people with better talent simply need less time to achieve something, both need time investment nonetheless , the only differing argument here is how much talent do you need to completely overshadow time investment, but if you draw a graph for literally any 2 things that you are comparing the lines will get closer and closer without touching as they extend further towards infinity, aka it will diminish until the lines are perfectly parallel near infinity , in other words raw talent cannot overshadow anything without time invested, it's all a matter of how much time the other needs to reach that level.

[Deleted]

Why people want everything for nothing? I mean if i play casual PvP it's obvious that a real PvP player will devastate me. But it's normal: a PvP player plays PvP and he is geared and skilled.
When i see players getting full conquest gear in 2 or 3 days i really want to quit the game (and i am a PvE player), because if you want to have everything in an easy and fast way then go play on a BTW game and don't annoy older player.
Is like to ask "why older worker with more experience year than me get more money? I have just started to work and i want his money in 2 months".
Come on guys, be smart.

you don't earn less for being new, you earn less for being worth less or not even trying to get paid what you are worth.
If you tell a ceo he has to do a janitor job first before he can do his ceo job at the new company he will call you crazy.

PvP vets feel the same way, nobody is interested in doing another job before they can start competing again on an even field.

[Sylvaeres]

Everyone knows as a fresh 100 if you queue on a BG you are going to get obliterated, but it doesn't matter because you'll be fully geared in 2 days anyways. Now in legion Blizzard has created "pvp templates", so the power difference between a fresh 110 and a fully geared player is minimal. Or is it? You actually have to farm your artifact for months, and on top of that you have to farm your honor talents, and ON TOP OF THAT you gain power from your ilvl. Those things are a HUGE difference in power and it will take a shit ton of time for a new 110 to be on the same level as other players when we are mid xpac.
People with higher ratings will also get the benefit of higher ilvl, wich means there will be an extra power gap between players that doesn't exist now.
Has blizzard commented anything on this?, seems like they tried to solve a minimal problem with a system that has the same flaws but to a much greater extent.

this is why we cant have nice things, because people spout moronic nonsense because their "No Child Left Behind" education resulted in their horrendous reading comprehension and critical thinking

[Pewpewwindeeps]

Play the game before you cry wolf. If it's still as bad as you make it out to be, quit. We won't miss you. I'll still be grinding and having fun. Part of what lured me into WoW in the first place was looking at all of these super powerful characters running around being bad-asses, and hoping to one day be as powerful as they are. I'm fairly certain that most of everyone plays the game for an extremely similar reason. Just be awesome. Also, look at the flip-side. If it is really that brokenly different in terms of power level......TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT! BE OP! BE AMAZING! Make those scrubs cower in fear of your awesomeness! You can't honestly tell me that you're concerned about how easy it is for Joe Blow to get into the game 5 months down the road....it seems to me that your only concern is having to grind something....you know....make an effort. What a world!

[Kagthul]

This entire thread is full of people who fundamentally don't get it.

Ill do my best to see if i can educate you.

First off, before we can even begin to discuss the issue, we need to have a fundamental understanding of why the PvP system is changing in the first place.

Blizzard's stated, outright intention, is that currently the PvP system is "too hard on fresh max level characters and it takes too long to be useful".

You have to keep that in mind as we discuss this. THAT is the reason the PvP system is being reworked - because Blizzard felt (or says they felt, if i see blue text, i automatically assume these days that the person is lying, deluded, or doesn't even know what is going on - their own posters have gotten stuff blatantly wrong quite a bit recently).

So, Blizzard's supposition is that a freshly leveled 100 is at "too big of a disadvantage" and has "grind too long to be competitive" and that is why PvP participation is down to record lows. And that's why their changing to the "new" system so that (supposedly) someone can just hit 110 and head right into PvP and be competitive.

Problem is, this is unmitigated bullshit on both fronts.

Lets go over a few facts:

The difference between full Honor gear and Full Conquest gear (supposedly the best PvP gear) on live is 9.23%.

You can have full Honor gear in 4-6 hours without ever having to fight another player.

So, "the grind" to be effective in PvP is six hours after hitting 100. Six hours.

-----

In Legion, the difference between a fresh 110 and a max-geared toon is... 10.85% (Titanforged/Warforged). More likely to be about 9.8% (just from iLevel).

In Legion, it will take weeks or months to get a full set of gear, due to RNG and rating caps. In addition, unlike the current system, where 100% of the players have access to all the gear, in this system, gear better than the very bottom barrel (820) is locked behind ratings. A full 80% of the people participating in PvP will, mathematically, NEVER be able to close the gear gap. The system DOES NOT ALLOW FOR IT.

In Legion, depending on your class, you are completely gimped without the 3rd row Honor talents. (Some classes are not, and the tanks dont even need honor talents at all). Most classes, though, are looking at a 3-5 week slog to grind out their honor talents before they can be 'viable'.

In Legion, artifact talents can add up to 20% damage to individual abilities and a fully unlocked artifact is worth ~20% more dps/hps throughput or more. This takes MONTHS of time. Even if catchup mechanics cut this in half (which, following the math of the only catchup mechanic so far shown, is about right), you're still looking at 3-5 weeks of "catchup".

<><><><><><><>

So, lets recap:

Live Game
Fresh 100 is completely viable within six hours of hitting 100, without ever having to engage in PvP, and is about 9.5% or less behind in stats.

Legion
Fresh 110 takes between 3-6 weeks to get Honor talents unlocked to be viable, and up to months to get the artifact unlocked. Can STILL be behind up to 10% in stats, IN ADDITION to being behind on talents and artifact. Viability takes weeks, even under catchup mechanics. 10% gear deficit (that CANNOT EVER be overcome by more than 80% of players unless they raid Heroic or better...) + up to 20% deficit from artifact + missing talents required to even make your spec/class viable = a lot more than just the current 9.5% stats.

6 Hours < Weeks.

Blizzard's stated goal: Get more people into PvP by making it easier to just be able to play, particularly freshly leveled characters who start PvP late

Blizzard's outcome: 100% total abject failure.

The power gap in Legion WILL be even higher than WoD - by an order of magnitude - because currently the power gap is solely because of gear that can be obtained trivially. In Legion, it will be because of a gear gap that cant be closed, + an artifact that takes (even with catchup mechanics) weeks to grind, AND honor talents that take weeks to grind.

How anyone can't grasp this is beyond me. It will NOT be easier for someone to just drop into PvP. You will NOT be able to hit 110 and stroll into a BG and be viable. Youll be more of a handicap to your team than a guy in greens is currently.

[Livevil]

How anyone can't grasp this is beyond me.

When the guy plays since vanilla, has a total of 6k hks account wide, 50 BGs played across all his 8-9 characters and generally zero involvement in pvp what do you think he is gonna do? Rational thinking based on experience? Naaaaah

Start flaming the op for not blindly trusting blizzard's statements word by word. Way too many posters in this thread fall into his category.

[Mafic]

This entire thread is full of people who fundamentally don't get it.

Ill do my best to see if i can educate you.

First off, before we can even begin to discuss the issue, we need to have a fundamental understanding of why the PvP system is changing in the first place.

Blizzard's stated, outright intention, is that currently the PvP system is "too hard on fresh max level characters and it takes too long to be useful".

You have to keep that in mind as we discuss this. THAT is the reason the PvP system is being reworked - because Blizzard felt (or says they felt, if i see blue text, i automatically assume these days that the person is lying, deluded, or doesn't even know what is going on - their own posters have gotten stuff blatantly wrong quite a bit recently).

So, Blizzard's supposition is that a freshly leveled 100 is at "too big of a disadvantage" and has "grind too long to be competitive" and that is why PvP participation is down to record lows. And that's why their changing to the "new" system so that (supposedly) someone can just hit 110 and head right into PvP and be competitive.

Problem is, this is unmitigated bullshit on both fronts.

Lets go over a few facts:

The difference between full Honor gear and Full Conquest gear (supposedly the best PvP gear) on live is 9.23%.

You can have full Honor gear in 4-6 hours without ever having to fight another player.

So, "the grind" to be effective in PvP is six hours after hitting 100. Six hours.

-----

In Legion, the difference between a fresh 110 and a max-geared toon is... 10.85% (Titanforged/Warforged). More likely to be about 9.8% (just from iLevel).

In Legion, it will take weeks or months to get a full set of gear, due to RNG and rating caps. In addition, unlike the current system, where 100% of the players have access to all the gear, in this system, gear better than the very bottom barrel (820) is locked behind ratings. A full 80% of the people participating in PvP will, mathematically, NEVER be able to close the gear gap. The system DOES NOT ALLOW FOR IT.

In Legion, depending on your class, you are completely gimped without the 3rd row Honor talents. (Some classes are not, and the tanks dont even need honor talents at all). Most classes, though, are looking at a 3-5 week slog to grind out their honor talents before they can be 'viable'.

In Legion, artifact talents can add up to 20% damage to individual abilities and a fully unlocked artifact is worth ~20% more dps/hps throughput or more. This takes MONTHS of time. Even if catchup mechanics cut this in half (which, following the math of the only catchup mechanic so far shown, is about right), you're still looking at 3-5 weeks of "catchup".

<><><><><><><>

So, lets recap:

Live Game
Fresh 100 is completely viable within six hours of hitting 100, without ever having to engage in PvP, and is about 9.5% or less behind in stats.

Legion
Fresh 110 takes between 3-6 weeks to get Honor talents unlocked to be viable, and up to months to get the artifact unlocked. Can STILL be behind up to 10% in stats, IN ADDITION to being behind on talents and artifact. Viability takes weeks, even under catchup mechanics. 10% gear deficit (that CANNOT EVER be overcome by more than 80% of players unless they raid Heroic or better...) + up to 20% deficit from artifact + missing talents required to even make your spec/class viable = a lot more than just the current 9.5% stats.

6 Hours < Weeks.

Blizzard's stated goal: Get more people into PvP by making it easier to just be able to play, particularly freshly leveled characters who start PvP late

Blizzard's outcome: 100% total abject failure.

The power gap in Legion WILL be even higher than WoD - by an order of magnitude - because currently the power gap is solely because of gear that can be obtained trivially. In Legion, it will be because of a gear gap that cant be closed, + an artifact that takes (even with catchup mechanics) weeks to grind, AND honor talents that take weeks to grind.

How anyone can't grasp this is beyond me. It will NOT be easier for someone to just drop into PvP. You will NOT be able to hit 110 and stroll into a BG and be viable. Youll be more of a handicap to your team than a guy in greens is currently.

Blizz is taking a big gamble that players at lower level can close the gap with RNG titanforged gear from PVE slot machine mechanisms like world quests, heroics and raids. So, when a PVE player ventures into PVP casually they will be close to the top tier players in PVP. But you are correct that without PVP talents some classes and specs are weaker by magnitudes greater than 5, 8 or 10 percent in terms of damage, healing, or mitigation.

PVP talents also take a long time to grind out...longer than doing the honor grind for gear four times over give or take.

[Kagthul]

I was just browsing the updated calculator for my classes.

Aff. Warlock is severely gimped without row 2 talents and damn near unplayable with just row 1.... and still not super viable with row 3.
Blood Dk - holy crap. Every talent is good. Not that i need them as a tank.
Resto Druid - The really good talents are row 3, but at least row 2 is "viable".
Prot Pally - holy crap, every talent is good. Not that i need them as a tank.
Hunter - Row 3 or useless.

Its so hit or miss its scary.

The gear disparity isn't even the thing, really. The system works (at least a tiny bit) in that regard - even as a fresh 110, you're not more than 10% behind, which is what you get (ish) with Honor gear now.

Its the MASSIVE difference (PvP) talents and artifact traits bring that make it incalculably bad/worse for fresh characters compared to live.

Afflock without Casting Circle = interrupted and owned.
Afflock with Casting Circle = hillariously OP and never dies. (Not that damage is high, but DL is super good).

That one PvP talent makes the entire game different for Afflocks.

[RelaZ]

"There are catch up mechanics for alts, other specs, and for everyone as time passes for leveling Artifact weapons."
Source: MMO, Front Page as of this posting, specific post: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...Dev-Interviews

That's still going to be longer than a days worth of honor farming in Ashran.

"Thank you for having the discussion. To provide some more information, here are the honor requirements for each level. We intentionally have the initial levels with less honor so that you are able to get a PvP talent in each row very quickly (by level 10)." Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20742644809#6

"Prestige Levels: Reach Honor Level 50, which grants access to high-level PvP talents. Or you can turn in your Honor Level to gain a prestige level for rewards (titles, artifact appearance, mount, pet)", so that at any point in time, even experienced and older characters might be re-grinding their honor talents to reach higher prestige levels. Source: http://www.wowhead.com/news=251616/l...nt-preview-mar

Most specs are at a severe disadvantage until the high 40s. That's way more honor than 27k (+ having to level Artifact). Just because they have a talent option available in every tier at 10K honor doesn't mean they are "playable" in any form of serious PvP environment.

"Gear can still improve your character in PvP, but as an example, a 25 item level difference will result in a 2.5% difference, not a 25% difference."
Source: http://www.wowhead.com/news=251616/l...nt-preview-mar

This disparity simply does not exist today. After a certain amount of time everyone is on an equal footing in PvP and it has been that way since mid/late MoP. Outgearing your opponent in competitive PvP wasn't a thing. Even if it's only a 1% increase people are going to feel forced to do Mythics, especially those PvPers who can't get high enough PvP ratings to get the same (ish) ilvls that way. And if it turns out such that Mythic gear provides higher ilvls than the best PvP gear (highest rating)... then oh boy are Blizzard in for a whinefest, jk people will just quit.


OP is correct in every single point he brings up. Anyone who says differently is just not understanding this correctly.

Combining PvP and PvE gear in this way is terrible. Blizzard should've just kept the WoD system and made sure to keep PvP gear sufficiently low ilvl (out of PvP instances) so that it doesn't become an issue for the PvE gearing process.

[Syld]

This entire thread is full of people who fundamentally don't get it.

Thank you for expanding the idea, I really don't understand people bashing me, I'm fine with the artifact grind, the point of the thread was explaining how the new system is the total opposite of what blizzard tried to achieve when they implemented pvp templates.