Poll: Are you staying Pally, rolling one or rolling away from the class come Legion?

[Anegrohymn]

Staying Prot, but I wish we had our super awesome self healing back.

Been playing it on beta and wasn't too excited over it, but I'm hoping drugging up on tons of haste will fix that.

[Absintheminded]

That's completely wrong. It's mainly subjective but rets problem isn't bland, it's clunky and has weird mechanics but it's far from bland.

Prot is definitely slow but it was changed quite a bit, it's really strong and fun to play in Pvp. It is slow in pve though, but it's far from unchanged.

Holy has plenty of interaction with judgement and crusader strike. The talents crusaders might and JoL help with that more than enough. It doesn't need to melee in order to heal, but crusaders might helps with our general healing rotation. There's definitely interaction with crusader strike, and with JoL we get interaction with judgement. I personally dislike the JoL talent and don't take it but CM helps and it's fun since we already stand in melee.

Feels like you haven't been paying attention to changes. Especially the holy changes.

It's not completely wrong. The first two are opinions and the third one is a fact that Holy continues to lose benefit from using those abilities. You named two reasons. They're not even very good talents. Earlier in the development cycle there was another talent. In previous expansions, you could use those abilities to gain holy power, as well as other benefits like splash healing, judgment effects, etc. It is less.

[Taeldorian]

It's not completely wrong. The first two are opinions and the third one is a fact that Holy continues to lose benefit from using those abilities. You named two reasons. They're not even very good talents. Earlier in the development cycle there was another talent. In previous expansions, you could use those abilities to gain holy power, as well as other benefits like splash healing, judgment effects, etc. It is less.

Yeah I noted that a majority of this conversation is subjective, but everything below here isn't.

They're plenty good talents, I don't know much about JoL because I haven't tested it as much but crusaders might speeds up and benefits the rotation especially if you aren't taking lightbringer. Earlier in the development cycle we were shit and had the worst playstyle imaginable that caused issues with both our throughout and general healing rotation. The one we have now gives us the option to heal from both melee or ranged and if you choose melee you can take a talent (or both) that helps you better utilize your melee abilities (CS specifically) when your in melee.

You specifically said we don't have any interaction with our melee abilities, but we do. There's even a YouTube video that explains the benefit of taking both CM and JoL and shows how to use them "properly". I don't like this playstyle personally although CM does speed things up or gives us more opportunities to use our heals, I prefer standing at ranged and healing so I do but that doesn't mean the interaction between our abilities isn't there. It is.

[Absintheminded]

lots and lots of stuff

I did not specifically say we have "no interaction". I said we've continued to be fucked away from the playstyle, and I gave examples of the stuff we had in the past. Whether you like it or not, CS shortening HS cooldown and JoL healing is less than what there's been in the past. It's not "plenty good talents". It's two talents, one that's not even technically required to be melee range. Considering the Mastery benefits being in close to your Beacon, it only makes sense that there should be an entire (optional) playstyle dedicated to it, as there has always been since TBC.

[Eon Drache]

I'll stick through my paladin and enjoy the things I DO get. 50% increased damage almost 100% uptime in LFR thanks to the retribution passive. Umm... >.> Um... Cool Blade of Justice animation and spinning hammers?

[Taeldorian]

I did not specifically say we have "no interaction". I said we've continued to be fucked away from the playstyle, and I gave examples of the stuff we had in the past. Whether you like it or not, CS shortening HS cooldown and JoL healing is less than what there's been in the past. It's not "plenty good talents". It's two talents, one that's not even technically required to be melee range. Considering the Mastery benefits being in close to your Beacon, it only makes sense that there should be an entire (optional) playstyle dedicated to it, as there has always been since TBC.

Not gonna keep repeating myself. I didn't say plenty of talents I said the talents we have are plenty good. CM influences the rotation enough to make it have a purpose. Don't know or care for JoL, but CM helps with this "melee healer" playstyle. Tbh when they tried in alpha it didn't work. That's a fact. Could they make it work? Maybe. But do we have melee abilities that influence our rotation when we stand in melee? Absolutely. CM further proves that. Sure, were not shockadins anymore (but we do good dps currently) but we do have things that allow interaction between CS and our rotation. It's not whether you believe me or not, it's right in front of you as a talent man.

Ret is super bland, Prot is uninteresting and mostly unchanged, and holy has continued to be fucked from any play style benefitting from CS/Jso I'm done (for now)

See, this is where you're wrong. Just to reiterate since I think we're arguing about different things, we do have a playstyle that benefits from CS. We can speed up our rotation with it which influences the way we play. Saying we're fucked from any playstyle benefitting from CS is wrong because we do have a playstyle that's changed and influenced by it.

[Morally Grey Storm]

See, this is where you're wrong. Just to reiterate since I think we're arguing about different things, we do have a playstyle that benefits from CS. We can speed up our rotation with it which influences the way we play. Saying we're fucked from any playstyle benefitting from CS is wrong because we do have a playstyle that's changed and influenced by it.

how do you speed up rotation which is firmly tied to Judgement Smash window?

[Taeldorian]

how do you speed up rotation which is firmly tied to Judgement Smash window?

I'm talking about holy. Crusaders might speeds up the rotation by reducing the CD of holy shock and LoD whenever you use CS.

[Absintheminded]

This is such a silly argument. You keep repeating the things I said and interpreting them incorrectly. We have less benefit currently than we had in the past. Shortening the CD on HS pretty much the only thing we have. Before we could splash heal, regen mana, proc the entire CD gone, etc. It's less, that's the fact I'm arguing, and I wish it weren't so. Anything else to argue about is opinion, and I will respect yours.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I'm talking about holy. Crusaders might speeds up the rotation by reducing the CD of holy shock and LoD whenever you use CS.

ohhh ;[

my bad, sorry -.-

[Splatter]

I'm quite unsure atm. Been playing pally on Beta for a while now. lvl 110 and have been doing a lot of world quests and dungeons. Ret seems low on dps compared to other classes and not just the Ret I am playing but the other Ret pallies I have seen. The rotation isn't particularly exciting, but there are other things to look out for just as using your DP procs on justicars vengence instead of TV for example. I really hate that ret has to choose between single target or aoe dps via talents. I've gone for a haste build and the pace of the rotation smooths out quite a lot and it actually feels tolerable for me. My biggest concern is when raids come out I am going to be sitting at the bottom of the meters and letting the rest of my raid team down.

Holy was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed leveling as holy dps. Healing does feel a little bit weak but that seems to be the same for all classes. I felt holy AoE healing was a bit weak but I never had trouble healing random dungeons at 110 and when tanks or dps died it was pretty much always their fault for not avoiding mechanics or using tank abilties to reduce damage taken.

Prot feels like it is missing something. You have one defensive ability and the rest is just dps or CD's. I feel prot could benefit from another defensive button to push on a regular basis, maybe sacred sheild or something.

Overall a lot of concerns about the class but its the only melee healer tank class that I like so will probably suffer through it and hope it gets some attention fairly soon!

[Taeldorian]

This is such a silly argument. You keep repeating the things I said and interpreting them incorrectly. We have less benefit currently than we had in the past. Shortening the CD on HS pretty much the only thing we have. Before we could splash heal, regen mana, proc the entire CD gone, etc. It's less, that's the fact I'm arguing, and I wish it weren't so. Anything else to argue about is opinion, and I will respect yours.

Alright, all good. I agree it's a pointless argument and I also acknowledge we definitely have less things for melee that altered our rotation. You're right if that's what you're saying, for sure. I was just saying we do have something for melee which is nice but unfortunately we do have less than before. My bad, was arguing something completely different than what you were saying. Sorry

Things have changed since then though like mana actually mattering. I do love our current playstyle, I do love that we have some things currently that contribute to melee but I do miss when mana mattered and I do miss the things that you listed which we used to have. Still though, I love the current state of holy. I do get what you're saying though.

- - - Updated - - -

ohhh ;[

my bad, sorry -.-

All good

/10char

[Absintheminded]

No problem man, thanks. That's my main grief with the class. Unfortunately, Blizz completely changed DK as well, which was my other love so I'm kind of stuck playing something that doesn't truly speak to me.

[Snegovik]

No problem man, thanks. That's my main grief with the class. Unfortunately, Blizz completely changed DK as well, which was my other love so I'm kind of stuck playing something that does truly speak to me.

But dks got better over all, i hear very good things about Unholy, no ?

[Schattenlied]

I've been a Paladin since vanilla, I'll be a Paladin till this game dies, but that doesn't mean I won't skip expansions... and the way Ret is looking in Legion right now, I might just skip it all together... They fucked up so hard with the Ret redesign.

[Taeldorian]

But dks got better over all, i hear very good things about Unholy, no ?

Well, if you like popping wounds and shit on other people (plague like kinda stuff) then it's great.

[unstableone]

I'll play ret...some, but plan on having a backup class after I get tired of being an unwanted, overly-gimped, melee.

Having an unfun rotation for moving targets is bad enough. Purposely not being given utility to be a successful melee is beyond dumb.

[Absintheminded]

But dks got better over all, i hear very good things about Unholy, no ?

I think Blood and Unholy definitely did get better with the Legion changes. The problem though, is that I was an Unholy tank, and while I loved Unholy DPS, I also really liked Blood DPS. So... RIP, I guess.

[Kithelle]

I plan to play multiple classes, Paladin included, have a level 100 Pally already.

[Splatter]

Couple of changes to Ret in beta build that just went out. 8 sec judgement buff instead of 6 and judgement always hits a 2nd target. Thats not bad really. With a haste build you can just about have judgement up 100%