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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    You and player you are quoting are confusing casuals with bad players that confused MMORPG with single player game. Casual doesn't mean incompetent. Casual doesn't mean anti-social.
    No. I am not. If that is how you interpreted what I meant, then apologies.

    I tend to consider the casual more the play style of the player. It is someone who is not interested to devoting too much time in improving their skill in the game. They just want to play, have a great time. How they achieve that is immaterial, collectinng pets, raiding mythics, farming, mythic raiding etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    LFD/LFR are built for incompetent anti-social players. Not for casuals.
    Here I disagree greatly. LFR is built players who are unable, uninterested, or any other personal reason into joining organized group. It does not have to be due to skill or social behavior. There are people who cannot commit to a schedule. Some people have said they lead a busy life, have wife/husbands and kids yet still can make time for scheduled raiding. To these people, I say, great. It worked out for you. But it does not work out for everyone. There are people who raids with their wife/husband/kids.

    LFR serves a role and fills a gap for some people. Not just for the incompetent and anti-social players.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    There hasn't been an LFR thread for awhile, so I thought I would see what the community thinks.

    In your opinion, do you think the LFR system that has now been a part of the game since the end of Cata (Dragon Soul), do you think its been a success or a failure?

    In some respects LFR has benefits. There's no denying that. In other respects, it completely undermines the spirit of the game and what an MMO should be.

    In my opinion it has been an absolute failure for many reasons, but for 2 main reasons:

    1) Destroyed the community - Players literally are no longer inclined to even speak to one another anymore. We are all now just drones that play the UI queue up game.

    2) Players are worse skillwise - Players are no longer expected or even need to get better because things die regardless of effort in LFR.

    What do you think? Why do you think that way?
    LFR is WILDLY successful and if you can't see that, I don't know what to say. You can queue in to it 24 hours a day. People use it a lot.

  3. #643
    In terms of letting people see the content? It's a success.
    Properly translating raiding into a pug friendly environment? Not a success. LFR isn't even close to real raiding.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Tijuana View Post
    LFR is WILDLY successful and if you can't see that, I don't know what to say. You can queue in to it 24 hours a day. People use it a lot.
    What about either of those comments make it a success?

  5. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    What about either of those comments make it a success?
    The fact that people use it alot is of course a measure of it's success. Unless you've got some arbitrary idea that player participation in content is a bad thing....
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The fact that people use it alot is of course a measure of it's success. Unless you've got some arbitrary idea that player participation in content is a bad thing....
    Players level from 1-100, does that make leveling process a success? Players do 5 man nomrals, does that make them a success? Players do garrisons, does that make them a success? People do lots of things they don't like or want to do for the end game goal. Just because something has high participation rates doesn't instantly make it a great success.

  7. #647
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  8. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Players level from 1-100, does that make leveling process a success
    Yes actually it does. In fact people seem to return en masse for the lvling experience and then leave shortly thereafter. On the other hand virtually nobody participates in mythic raiding but that must be a huge success right???
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes actually it does. In fact people seem to return en masse for the lvling experience and then leave shortly thereafter. On the other hand virtually nobody participates in mythic raiding but that must be a huge success right???
    It's a lot more of a success than LFR to say the least. But what about 5 man normals and garrisons? People do those all the time and yet Blizzard themselves have said neither of them were successful in WoD. People doing something doesn't make it successful, it just makes it the easiest way to reach a goal.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Players level from 1-100, does that make leveling process a success? Players do 5 man nomrals, does that make them a success? Players do garrisons, does that make them a success? People do lots of things they don't like or want to do for the end game goal. Just because something has high participation rates doesn't instantly make it a great success.
    True. Then how would people measure success? Number of people enjoyment? Because you would argue that raiding has been an expensive failure.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    True. Then how would people measure success? Number of people enjoyment? Because you would argue that raiding has been an expensive failure.
    The problem is you can't measure the success of something in a game like that.

    LFR is a sickness that was born out of a account dictating game design. Old versions of WoW vanilla and TBC most notably but also wrath had the system down pat. Slow stead progression among multiple tiers to account for each players level of skill with slow rewards earned by inching up the difficulty ladder a bit at a time.

    Now there are some plus sides to having everyone on the same tier in the sense it is easier to balance the game but the trade off really wasn't worth it in the long run and I think we are seeing a slow return to the old way.

    Locking some of legions dungeons to mythic and mythic+ only I think is the first step to slowly returning to a more linear attunement driven game.

  12. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    . People doing something doesn't make it successful, it just makes it the easiest way to reach a goal.
    In WoD people by and large abandoned 5 mans. 5 mans were unsuccessful specifically because participation in that content was very brief. I mean this logic about people doing things in game can apply to anything. Mythic raiding is hardly a success.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    The problem is you can't measure the success of something in a game like that.

    LFR is a sickness that was born out of a account dictating game design. Old versions of WoW vanilla and TBC most notably but also wrath had the system down pat. Slow stead progression among multiple tiers to account for each players level of skill with slow rewards earned by inching up the difficulty ladder a bit at a time.
    You are repeating the same mantra that you always have. I am not interested in hearing how you personal feel worked and did not work. I am asking how would people measure contents is successful or not. You already said you cannot measure success based on what I wrote.

    So do you have an answer?

    And using your suggestion, if you have, how that measure if raiding is a success or not.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    You are repeating the same mantra that you always have. I am not interested in hearing how you personal feel worked and did not work. I am asking how would people measure contents is successful or not. You already said you cannot measure success based on what I wrote.

    So do you have an answer?

    And using your suggestion, if you have, how that measure if raiding is a success or not.
    I would use the sales figures to show when something has and hasn't worked.

  15. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    You are repeating the same mantra that you always have. I am not interested in hearing how you personal feel worked and did not work. I am asking how would people measure contents is successful or not. You already said you cannot measure success based on what I wrote.

    So do you have an answer?

    And using your suggestion, if you have, how that measure if raiding is a success or not.

    That's just it though. They deny us a useful metric of measuring success insisting it's artificial and then provide nothing in return.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    I would use the sales figures to show when something has and hasn't worked.
    And what is that something? Anyone can see sales are down.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    And what is that something? Anyone can see sales are down.
    Look at what got you 10 million subs and what got you 4 million subs.

    The answer lies within.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Look at what got you 10 million subs and what got you 4 million subs.

    The answer lies within.
    Except that you can't compare the gaming (and MMO) scenes from the time that had 10m subs and 4m subs at all. You were shot down about this many times on the official forums. You shouldn't try the same old rhetoric here.

    You can not pin a loss of subs on LFR. You can not pin a gain of subs on the old, broken, crap system that Vanilla & TBC had. There are an INFINITE number of factors to consider, but by all means, try to twist the numbers to suit your agenda (as you always have.) Your opinion can safely be ignored, just as it has been by so many on the official forums. Now, onto the ignore list you go.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerichofr View Post
    Except that you can't compare the gaming (and MMO) scenes from the time that had 10m subs and 4m subs at all. You were shot down about this many times on the official forums. You shouldn't try the same old rhetoric here.

    You can not pin a loss of subs on LFR. You can not pin a gain of subs on the old, broken, crap system that Vanilla & TBC had. There are an INFINITE number of factors to consider, but by all means, try to twist the numbers to suit your agenda (as you always have.) Your opinion can safely be ignored, just as it has been by so many on the official forums. Now, onto the ignore list you go.
    There is no one thing. No silver bullet. WoW is a entire ecosystem you can't just point to a single thing when the entire system is sick.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Look at what got you 10 million subs and what got you 4 million subs.

    The answer lies within.
    The game was new back then. Now the game is 10 years old. Is that a valid answer?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    There is no one thing. No silver bullet. WoW is a entire ecosystem you can't just point to a single thing when the entire system is sick.
    Yet you seem to do very well pointing at LFR.

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