[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Demsi]

Good for PvE maybe, look forward to breaking everyone out of CC in Arena if they happen to be right next to each other.

Depends. If it's like avenger's shield, that wont happen

[Morally Grey Storm]

Good for PvE maybe, look forward to breaking everyone out of CC in Arena if they happen to be right next to each other.

It would be pretty naive by this point to aassume this "buff" to Colossus Judgement of Smash Mastery wouldn't come without a price or a nerf of sorts

[Bormec]

I kind of see where their heads are at (and not even up their own asses!). What I think they want is to focus Judgement as our main "class fantasy" ability; it's what Exorcism was in Warcraft 2 and a close equivalency of "Force shove" in Star Wars. Which is fine, I guess, I'd argue Exorcism had more identity but w/e. So they make our Mastery tie into Judgement, but they don't make it a buff. Why? Because buffs can be transferred between enemies and between fights; what they want to focus on is keeping damage "in the moment", but in a multi-target situation, switching hurts, so they're going to further tweak in that regard.

My alt is a MM Hunter, so let's use that for example. His Mastery means he gets a damage buff for standing still, so what does that encourage? Finding a perch and keep firing, Legolas-style. It fits the fantasy, sure, but it also gives an advantage against every enemy that comes at you, because they don't start in range to force you to move and lose the buff; the deck is already stacked against them. Similarly, you are penalized for moving (which every boss makes you do).

Our rotation and functionality is probably set at this point (not counting any changes right after launch a la Cataclysm), so they'll continue to do tweaks to make it not so terrible, and hopefully, work on mobility and utility also.

[Celebhil]

according to wowhead, the 2sec reduction on the judgement talent is gutted....so its really all about the extra crit and cleave...kinda lackluster talent no?

[ruiizu]

Going to tell you right now, the changes here are basically exactly what I said created problems. Not saying they took my feedback, but what I was saying was...

The window is too punitive. It's all up to lag and luck if you can get that 2nd Templar's Verdict in sometimes, and you'll almost never get a 3rd in even with Divine Purpose. Also, the window is shorter than Execution Sentence, so it makes it awkward that you have to use ES and then wait before you can Judge.

My other feedback point was...

Greater Judgment lowers the CD on Judgment, but it doesn't increase Holy Power generation. As a result, Judgment is ready more often, but we don't have the Holy Power to use yet, so the lowered CD doesn't benefit us at all.

I know they did basically nothing for mobility, but I'm going to be that guy and just say "I actually feel like my feedback was heard." The change to Judgment actually answers one of the big concerns I had. Also, Divine Storm is now good at 2? targets, so that's awesome. It's actually a pretty big improvement for our Cleave.

The Judgment change, btw, means if you take Greater Judgment that you should open with Judgment -> Wake of Ashes for max burst (guaranteed crit + "ultimate" followed by big nasty TV).

If of course, you can get in range.

- - - Updated - - -

according to wowhead, the 2sec reduction on the judgement talent is gutted....so its really all about the extra crit and cleave...kinda lackluster talent no?

The CD reduction did nothing because by taking that, you lost the extra Holy Power generation needed to make use of the lower CD (it was different when Blade of Wrath reduced the CD of Blade of Justice, but it doesn't anymore).

[Bormec]

according to wowhead, the 2sec reduction on the judgement talent is gutted....so its really all about the extra crit and cleave...kinda lackluster talent no?

I'm also not sure what the "above 85%" does in the long run; it'll let us blow up trash mobs and enemies while soloing, get a small advantage early against targets in PvP, but won't really matter in most boss fights.

[Found]

I'm also not sure what the "above 85%" does in the long run; it'll let us blow up trash mobs and enemies while soloing, get a small advantage early against targets in PvP, but won't really matter in most boss fights.

In PvE, it'll mean if we swap quickly to things we get a guaranteed crit, sort of like marksmanship hunters do on live with Aimed Shot; probably not huge (since we don't really have anything that procs off of crits) but positive, especially since Judgment hits pretty hard. The talent's intended niche might just be burst AoE.

[Deleted]

This is hardly enough, but its the best we can expect i suppose. It does at least smooths things out a bit. It is really odd though.
The increased window will probably increase the relative power of crusade aswell.

[ruiizu]

In PvE, it'll mean if we swap quickly to things we get a guaranteed crit, sort of like marksmanship hunters do on live with Aimed Shot; probably not huge (since we don't really have anything that procs off of crits) but positive, especially since Judgment hits pretty hard. The talent's intended niche might just be burst AoE.

It will definitely increase our damage in fights with periodically spawning adds. I think Zeal will be the preferred ability for when you constantly have an extra nearby boss, but if stuff spawns on occasion, you'll want Greater Judgment to really rip into them as they come out (timing willing of course).

Actually it would be interesting if our niche was the opposite of Warriors: instead of having a powerful "execute," we get a powerful opening to start strong.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Actually it would be interesting if our niche was the opposite of Warriors: instead of having a powerful "execute," we get a powerful opening to start strong.

actually it would be pathetic if our niche was to have no benefit from burn phases or Bloodlust, or pot usage.

[ruiizu]

actually it would be pathetic if our niche was to have no benefit from burn phases or Bloodlust, or pot usage.

Not nearly as many classes have Execute mechanics anymore. There are also fights where you start with Bloodlust, and if you care to, you should be pre-potting fights anyway, so you get the most benefit right then and there.

I wouldn't hate to have Hammer of Wrath back, but there are other ways to build a class. I mainly wanted it because it sucks when you use a powerful attack that brings the target to the brink of death, but you've got nothing left to finish them off with.

That reminds me of something I need to post feedback on...JV not healing vs. absorbs feels like going back to the Warrior days of no rage vs. absorbs.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'd rather have Exorcism back to be honest as a powerful ranged attack that generates a charge of Holy Power. That is just me though.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Not nearly as many classes have Execute mechanics anymore.

orly?
Last I checked Only Ret was robbed of this mechanic, as Killshot and SWD still remain along with Execute itself.

Still, having such an "early advantage" is not something to be terribly happy about.
Meh buff, which doesn't change feth all in grand scheme of things. No more no less.

There are also fights where you start with Bloodlust, and if you care to, you should be pre-potting fights anyway, so you get the most benefit right then and there.

There are not nearly as many such fights compared to, err, standard fights where you Pot and BL at the end phase.
Again, this "buff" is nothing to be terrribly happy about. It's there, it's meh.

I wouldn't hate to have Hammer of Wrath back, but there are other ways to build a class.

Yeah, and we are bestowed with this "other way" come Legion.
There is much rejoicing going around, don't you notice?

I mainly wanted it because it sucks when you use a powerful attack that brings the target to the brink of death, but you've got nothing left to finish them off with.

Indeed it is.
But in no way will I pick that monstrosity of a finisher that is Hammer of Reckoning.

That reminds me of something I need to post feedback on...JV not healing vs. absorbs feels like going back to the Warrior days of no rage vs. absorbs.

I am slightly confused as to why noone has brought it up , like at all.
It is a very serious issue.

[Biral Sunherald]

I am slightly confused as to why noone has brought it up , like at all.
It is a very serious issue.

I brought it up a couple times on the official class feedback forum and on the Theorycrafting forum thread.

JV doesn't heal based on damage dealt, but on damage suffered from a target's health bar. Absorbs mitigate JV healing as does overkilling.

i.e. Kill a target with a 1mil JV crit and the target only had 200k health left. You only get 200k of healing. Take it to the extreme: 1mil crit on a target that only had 1k health left, #dat1khealing.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I brought it up a couple times on the official class feedback forum and on the Theorycrafting forum thread.

JV doesn't heal based on damage dealt, but on damage suffered from a target's health bar. Absorbs mitigate JV healing as does overkilling.

i.e. Kill a target with a 1mil JV crit and the target only had 200k health left. You only get 200k of healing. Take it to the extreme: 1mil crit on a target that only had 1k health left, #dat1khealing.

IKR?
I've brought it up here one or two times, we've discussed it with Nuin, but alas.

Guess there are more pressing issues out there. Especially in lieu of this gloriously glorius buff that was bestowed upon us this time.

[ruiizu]

My biggest issue with JV not healing on absorbs is that, aside of poor gameplay, it also makes zero sense in a "lore" expansion. If it only heals what it deals, then it's a leech...I don't think Lightbringers are the "life steal" type really. Just activating JV should heal you for what it was going to do, period.

I pointed out in my post on the forum that Death Strike heals you no matter what damage it does, which to me is ironic that the Death Knight class doesn't use Death Strike as a life stealing attack, but Paladins do.

Btw, I decided to do a little leveling with the Judgment change. Those 2 seconds really do make a pretty big quality of life difference. But no instant heal is really godawful. The Judgment cleave thing does help quite a bit though too. Overall, the main leftover problems are the same:

No Mobility
Healing feels like crap

Flash of Light heal isn't horrible but it's really shitty to have to just plant yourself there and cast the heal. JV heal is pretty okay but it requires a lot of setup (Judge, full HP, target stunned) before it heals well (then it heals for about 1/3rd of your HP though, so that's pretty nice). Definitely can see Ret is a lot more sturdy than Warrior though. All that healing Fury has doesn't mean crap when you're constantly taking 30% more damage.

[Snegovik]

from pvP pov those changes are total crap, the judgement clv is kinda nice but not vital, overall..Ret is as shit as it was in PvP, gg blizzard

A bit off topic: Blizzard, being the "special child" it is, decided to screw some more with PvP Rets and PvPers in general. It moved those sexy inferno mounts from Glad mounts to Mythic Raid/PVE rewards....so now that i finally thought PvPers will get something cool that PvErs wont have, but Blizzard stepped it and fethed everything up as always, not only PvPers will have to Raid for best Wpvp PvP gear but also for best looking mounts in game. GG Blizzard.

[Ulthane]

Seeing the Judgment change im not beyond seeing a Pseudo cone mechanic.

Judgment: Hits your primary target for 200% ap and judges them for 8 seconds. In addition judgement hits all near by enemies for 35% of the damage.

Greater Judgment: Judgment always critically strikes and now hits enemies further out from your target.

[ruiizu]

Seeing the Judgment change im not beyond seeing a Pseudo cone mechanic.

Judgment: Hits your primary target for 200% ap and judges them for 8 seconds. In addition judgement hits all near by enemies for 35% of the damage.

Greater Judgment: Judgment always critically strikes and now hits enemies further out from your target.

Have you checked Judgment? It actually has a pretty wide cleave radius, unlike Zeal. I've actually accidentally pulled a few things because of that.

[Celebhil]

the smoothness of fires of justice and the proc seems to warrent being baseline; maybe that tier of talents should be revamped into the cleaving/aoe row? cosecrate doesn't really compete with execution sentence and final verdict...does it?