Baltics on war footing as NATO tries to deter Russia

[Crispin]

Firstly the armed guards were outside the voting stations not inside (as verified by the independent observers), providing security != holding people at gunpoint and telling them how to vote lol.

Secondly the options were:

Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation?
Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

That is a clear option of either rejoining Russia, or remaining part of Ukraine and restoring the level of autonomy Crimea had prior to Ukraine taking over the region in 1995. The is no option for maintaining the status quo because nobody wanted that.

I belive we established that the "independent observers" werent so independent after all, anyhow discussing how Russia annexed Crimea is really just going in ring at this point.

[bison91]

Maybe one day western people will realize that we are the threat. We are the warmongerers and risk to world peace. But that doesn't work with the constant lies people are fed and firmly believe.

People don't even realize how ridiciolous -we- as the west are. It's actually laughable.

We kill 20 people in a drone attack somewhere in middle east because we deem one of these people in the mass a terroist. Just try to reverse roles here. Imagine Syria lets a drone cruise over our city and then kills 20 people walking trough a shopping mile.

It's okay if we do it. If someone else does it to us you realize how fucked up it actually is.


We are constantly expanding NATO, reinforcing arms, pushing russia into a corner. Despite the agreement after german reunion that NATO will never have an east expansion.

Another example; We hold military drills directly infront of the russian border. 'Defensive measures'. We are the good guys. We do it for good things. Russia holds military drills in their own country. OHMYGODTHISAGGRESSORPUTINDICTATOR.


USA has like 200+ military bases around the world and has been at war with at least one country trough almost it's entire existance as a state.

Who is the real aggressor and danger here?

Signed,
angry german

lol totaly this.

Anyway, all western propagandic people here are sooo brainwashed. yea russian wants to invade bla bla bla. everything russia does is always invading. they invaded mars and killed all aliens yeah ok whatever... russia with its "super" economics during 90's with no army invaded USA!!! omg!!! its true!

[Crispin]

No it's not, if the missile shield was in the USA and thus protecting the USA from incoming missiles it would be. But putting your missile launchers in a country thousands of miles away, near the border of a rival is an aggressive action.

To use an RTS analogy, building shield generators around your base to cover it from artillery/bombers is a defensive action, building them across the map to shield your forward artillery/units/etc is an offensive action and is considered expansion.

So when Russia put's S-300 systems or whatever it was, in Syria, it's an aggressive action?

[Deleted]

In 1917, too, no one expected anything from Russia. History will tell. Speaking about global players, im sorry to watch what Germany is now, great nation with ambitions in the past, lays totally under US nowadays. And yes, I do not support the parody of democracy that prevailed in Russia, I hope over time this will change, without revolutions.

What's more funny, the democratic charade going on in Russia or in the EUSSR?

[caervek]

So when Russia put's S-300 systems or whatever it was, in Syria, it's an aggressive action?

Yes it is, ISIS have no air force (barring two broken MiG-21s), that was an aggressive action to threaten Turkey.

[Dhrizzle]

I pretty much agree with the below. As much as I love OP's shade at the Putin, he seems very emotional and emotional people do not always have the most sense.

*btw Latvian here, overall mood here is, we are fine for now, just living on between the East and the West.

Are you sure you wouldn't feel more fine after buying some ridiculously expensive missiles and jets?

[Deleted]

Are you sure you wouldn't feel more fine after buying some ridiculously expensive missiles and jets?

How broke must a country be to even go after the smallest fish in the pond? Oh wait...

[Crispin]

Yes it is, ISIS have no air force (barring two broken MiG-21s), that was an aggressive action to threaten Turkey.

Ok, in my view it goes under protection which I do not view as an aggressive move, especially when you consider that Russia had a jet shot down.

So if Russia removed all their nuclear weapons from kaliningrad and replaced them with their own missile defense, you wouldnt see it as a change?

[Ulmita]

I belive we established that the "independent observers" werent so independent after all, anyhow discussing how Russia annexed Crimea is really just going in ring at this point.

I think we've established how independent company when asked the Crimean people if they were happy they VAST majority answered positively a year after. So w/e you try to say here is IRRELEVANT.

A total of 82 percent of Crimea residents fully support joining Russia, according to a poll released this month by respected GfK Ukraine pollster in Kiev. Only four percent oppose it.

Keep dreaming Crispin

[Crispin]

I think we've established how independent company when asked the Crimean people if they were happy they VAST majority answered positively a year after. So w/e you try to say here is IRRELEVANT.



Keep dreaming Crispin

I'm replying to Caervak saying that the observers were independent, as usual you reply with nonsense, a poll does not change that the observers were invited because of their bias.

I'm not against the outcome but the process, they could have voted to become part of Mars and I would not have cared, but carrying out a "referendum" as was done in Crimea, is something we need to make sure doesnt happen again.

[Slant]

Ok, in my view it goes under protection which I do not view as an aggressive move, especially when you consider that Russia had a jet shot down.

So if Russia removed all their nuclear weapons from kaliningrad and replaced them with their own missile defense, you wouldnt see it as a change?

We dont give a fuck about nukes there. Why would we care about conventional missiles? What goes on in your head?

[Crispin]

We dont give a fuck about nukes there. Why would we care about conventional missiles? What goes on in your head?

What a pointless reply. The question was aimed at Caerveks view on defensive installments beeing aggressive.

[In Ogres We Trust]

The problem with Russia is all the power is in the hands of one person. Putin could wake up tomrrow get in a fight with his wife and angry, decides to invade Estonia. There's no checks and balances in Russia, just one man who can do anything on a whim.

The Duma needs to be restored to power and politicians need to leave office on a regular basis, not stay in office for life.








https://www.yahoo.com/news/nervous-b...35.html?ref=gs



Asked about the likelihood of Russian aggression in the Baltics, Lithuania's Defense Minister Juozas Olekas told Reuters: "We cannot exclude it ... They might exercise on the borders and then switch to invasion in hours."

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia see themselves on the front line in any potential conflict with Moscow and say they are putting their armies on a war footing, meaning they can be mobilized almost immediately.

NATO defense ministers are set to agree this week on a new multinational force of 4,000 troops for the Baltics and Poland.

The United States, Germany and Britain are set to lead battalions of about 1,000 troops each. Canada may lead a fourth.

While the Baltic nations welcome the deployments, they say the build-up must go further - pointing to Russia's efforts to develop an "anti-access" capability in the Kaliningrad exclave bordering Lithuania and Poland, using missiles and submarines to stop NATO moving reinforcements into the Baltics.

The Baltics want NATO fighters to protect their skies and are seeking medium-range missile interceptors from Norway's Kongsberg Gruppen and U.S. defense contractor Raytheon .

"We need to stop possible air aggression," said Olekas. "We are discussing creating a regional medium-range air defense system together with the Latvians, the Estonians and the Poles."

Olekas expects to raise the matter with NATO colleagues at the ministers' meeting on Tuesday and Wednesday in Brussels.

CREDIBILITY

The head of the Estonian defense force Lieutenant General Riho Terras said: "The first and foremost is the defense of our airspace. Air defense is the challenge that needs to solved together with the NATO alliance."

"We are not talking about defense of Lithuania, we are talking about the credibility of the whole alliance," said Lithuania's Foreign Minister Linas Linkevicius.

But such calls would require stretched NATO governments to beef up the so-called air policing mission that regularly intercepts Russian jets flying over international waters close to the Baltic states.

The Baltic nations rely on their NATO allies' quick reaction aircraft to patrol their skies, with no mandate to confront hostile aircraft in a conflict.

Four British Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets and four Portuguese F-16 fighter jets are currently carrying out the air policing mission. Officials say a lot more would be needed for air defense.

And southern NATO nations, focused on uncontrolled migrant flows and the failing states on Europe's borders, may also be unwilling to grant more resources to the eastern flank.

Ben Hodges, the commander of the U.S. army in Europe, visited Vilnius last week. He echoed Baltic concerns about the strength of NATO's deterrence.

"It is a transition," Hodges said. "I hope that includes serious war fighting capabilities. Just putting garrisons of troops sitting in the countries ... will not deter."

Russia insists it poses no threat to the former Soviet states. Top NATO officials say talk of an impending attack is misleading, a view shared by Paris and Berlin.

Russia has held unannounced exercises on the borders of the Baltics, including one in 2014 which mustered 100,000 troops, according to Danish Colonel Jakob Sogard Larsen, who heads the new NATO command outpost in Lithuania.

"You see it differently when you live here," Larsen said.

"We need to learn to fight total war again," he said, in a sign of the return of a Cold War-style mood.

Lithuanian officials accuse Russia of trying to buy off Lithuanian soldiers and business people to become spies for the Kremlin, intimidating diplomats and spreading disinformation on the Internet and television.

Prosecutors are preparing to file criminal charges against someone they say is a high-ranking Russian intelligence officer arrested last year trying to recruit informants.

Russia denies any such activities.

SWITCH TO "CLASSIC WARFARE"

The NATO battalions are part of a deterrent to be approved by leaders at a summit in Warsaw in July. That will involve forces on rotation, warehoused equipment and a "spearhead" force backed by NATO's 40,000-strong rapid reaction force.

Once the decision is made, Germany could deploy to Lithuania before September. Britain is expected to deploy to Estonia, the United States to Latvia and Canada possibly to Poland.

German and Danish soldiers fanned out across swamps and woodland in Lithuania this week in war games to learn the unfamiliar Baltic terrain and test their ability to move equipment and personnel quickly to a possible front.

Their tanks and armored vehicles were recently brought back from Afghanistan, desert-yellow camouflage painted over with the green-and-black colors of Baltic woodlands.

"We are changing our focus from counter-insurgency tactics back to classic warfare," said German Lieutenant Colonel Marc-Ulrich Cropp from his camouflaged command tent at a Lithuanian military base. "Everyone has to be prepared."

The problem is this backwater analysis/propaganda since NATO has been intentionally provoking Russia since the end of the Cold War by aggressively expanding into the former Warsaw Pact nation-states.

[Ulmita]

The problem is this backwater analysis/propaganda since NATO has been intentionally provoking Russia since the end of the Cold War by aggressively expanding into the former Warsaw Pact nation-states.

You shall be called: putin bot, russian bot, yuri lover etc. be prepared

[Mekh]

The problem is this backwater analysis/propaganda since NATO has been intentionally provoking Russia since the end of the Cold War by aggressively expanding into the former Warsaw Pact nation-states.

If by "expanding" you mean appearing more attractive to join than the alternatives, you're right. Russia should step up their propaganda game.

[Crispin]

You shall be called: putin bot, russian bot, yuri lover etc. be prepared

Well not really, his concern (and Russias) is valid on wether NATO should have expanded or not after the cold war.

[zorkuus]

If by "expanding" you mean appearing more attractive to join than the alternatives, you're right. Russia should step up their propaganda game.

The problem is when they do they look even less attractive.

[zmp]

The problem is when they do they look even less attractive.

You mean they would look like our current western "objective" news media outlets?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

No you're not, you're being silly and trying to be comical by making fun of things he isn't saying in order to deflect from his post instead of simply trying to counter it. I'll admit it's a good tactic, especially when the isn't really a counter, however most posters here can see straight through it.

Well, false. Now you're flat out lying. Really sad man. I was going directly by what he said.

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No it's not, if the missile shield was in the USA and thus protecting the USA from incoming missiles it would be. But putting your missile launchers in a country thousands of miles away, near the border of a rival is an aggressive action.

To use an RTS analogy, building shield generators around your base to cover it from artillery/bombers is a defensive action, building them across the map to shield your forward artillery/units/etc is an offensive action and is considered expansion.

Wait, its considered expansion to build in countries that ask you to do so? So you're implying that NATO is stealing Russian land?

[Flurryfang]

Since you are a history student please educate yourself with the history of Crimea. Crimea was only given yesterday to Urkaine by Russia (illigaly) and thus why 80-90% of crimeans where ethnic russians.

I know very well of Crimeas history, but when it comes to heritage, you have to draw a line somewhere. Most people, nearly everywhere, has heritage to somewhere else. Their culture, their ethnicity and language pretty much all differs from region to region, no matter where you go in this world, but there always have to be some guide line for us to obey, since it would be complete chaos to get a complete picture of ethnicity of Europe. So i use border-lines as my guide. When you are in a nation, within its borders, then you are a part of that nation. You may feel closer to another nation because of heritage or culture, but you have to either move or live with the borders, which you are born into.

So just because 80-90% of the population of Crimea is ethnic russian, does not mean, that they have to right to claim the land they live on and remove themself from the country of Ukraine. They were all in a position, where if they wanted to, they could move into Russia, without stealing the land with them. Just because something was owned or juled by somebody else 50 years ago, does not mean that they have any right today. If that was the law, which we follow, then a lot of places on this planet, would be up for grasp by an insane number of states. World War II and the cold war changed a lot of things. Some were good, some were bad, but change happend. If you, as a person, did like that change, then you were free to go somewhere else, where you felt home.

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Because Ukraine ANNEXED™® Crimea from Russia previously.

No it was not. It was transffered by the soviet union to belong under Ukrainien rule. So not war-like action from the of Ukraine, not like the russians have done.

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care to link the videos? Care to prove, that even such cases existed, they were wide-spread?
Defend your status of professional historian. So far, you just want us to take your words w/o any proof. One Ukranian friend doesn't count as a proof.

Dude, i did not prepare myself in those days, to one day fight/discuss over who is right in this conflict. I saw news, talked with people and then, when the crimean thing was getting calm, i went on with my life. So no, i don't have videos and proof of anything... Just like 95% of the people in here, does have proff. Even Dentelan, who is rpetty good at argumentation, has some very un-bulletproof evidence with him. So lets get back to the fact, which is, that are people discussing personal opnions and experiences against each other, where very few people have prepared evidence or proof. I have better things to do with my time, then finding DANISH news about Crimea, just to appease some guy.

But i am always really to shoot downs somebodies proof, if they think they got something, which can prove me wrong. Dentelans voting ballad says nothing about which time is was given out. Does not say have multiple examples of them being handeled out to all of Crimea, and not just a section, and i have still to see a poll of how satisfied crimean citizens were with the armed revolt, and if they felt safe and unpushed to vote for specific thing. This, is just a small part of the evidence needed to show proof of complete support from the crimean people in total.