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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snackpack View Post
    On one hand it's kinda boring and I miss unique items, but on the other hand it should give people incentive to keep doing dungeons, rather than "I finally got the trinket from Black Morass, I'm never going back."
    It isnt incentive to keep doing anything. When you dont get your bis drop you are frustrated even when item you droped is upgrade you still leave in frustration knowing that item is less powerfull version of something what you will have to farm for weeks and maybe dont even get. When you get reward in RNG system player feel reliave not happines.

    This system actualy makes players more anngry and frustraited then just dont get drop with set stats at all. And most of taht frustraion ends as unsubcribed player.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Do you ever use that word knowing what it actually means? Especially since stats on gear vary far more, especially since WoD? It creates more of a grind which I'm sort of against (vs. constantly feeling like you're "getting more powerful"), but at least act like you know what you're talking about.

    There have always been Best in Slot items since the literal start of WoW. We've gotten more variety as the years have gone on but it's still stuck to the same formula. Don't act like this is something new to press a personal agenda.
    What you said makes no sense whatsoever, and some of it it simply not true... that is unless you have only played since maybe MoP.

    Main stat, Hit, dodge, parry, block, defense, spellpower, attack power, expertise... ALL of which were important to the class they were pertinent to.

    Now it's main stat, crit, haste, mastery and versatility... everything else is meaningless.

    Homogenization... uniting and uniformity.

    All gear rolls a main stat and random secondary stats... with versatility having a higher than average to roll to completely fuck a piece over. And even the order of secondary stats can hamper a piece from being awesome to just good. I want high crit... but I got a piece with high haste but low crit.

    At least before you KNEW what piece dropped from what boss and had a shopping list. Now bosses don't drop gear... but scratch off lottery tickets.

    I don't have an agenda... other than discuss the benefits or lack of in the previous, current or upcoming versions of WoW.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    What you said makes no sense whatsoever, and some of it it simply not true... that is unless you have only played since maybe MoP.

    Main stat, Hit, dodge, parry, block, defense, spellpower, attack power, expertise... ALL of which were important to the class they were pertinent to.

    Now it's main stat, crit, haste, mastery and versatility... everything else is meaningless.

    Homogenization... uniting and uniformity.

    All gear rolls a main stat and random secondary stats... with versatility having a higher than average to roll to completely fuck a piece over. And even the order of secondary stats can hamper a piece from being awesome to just good. I want high crit... but I got a piece with high haste but low crit.

    At least before you KNEW what piece dropped from what boss and had a shopping list. Now bosses don't drop gear... but scratch off lottery tickets.

    I don't have an agenda... other than discuss the benefits or lack of in the previous, current or upcoming versions of WoW.
    I've played since far before Mists. They've made it so that secondary stats can be randomized and there are still BIS for slots. I do, though, find it annoying to get a piece of gear and not be a set "format" as it used to be.

    However, you're saying they're Homogenizing gear. If anything you're not using the right word, since that's a word people constantly toss around when they don't know what's actually wrong with something. They use it as a sort of "taboo" word to scare people because "MRRRRR HOMOGENIZATION BAD" even though, outside of classes, there really aren't any other examples of it within the game.

    We have more choice in the gear we get, though there's still what's "BIS". The whole point behind having secondary stats randomized was to add more choice and incentive to gaining gear-- to attempt to add more depth to a system that was just "grind this instance until X, Y, and Z specific pieces drop for you". Now it's more like "grind this instance until every X, Y, and Z drop, but sometimes you're gonna have A, B, C, D, etc. drop, which do power up your character, but since they can't bring out your character's full itemized potential, they're not as good".

    I have my gripes with the new system after the Versatility spam I'd get on a number of pieces in WoD, but it's not Homogenization. My critique is for you to actually act like you know what you're talking about. If they were continuing to "unite, uniform", make gear the fucking same copy paste where you grind an instance for that specific piece, we'd have the same system we had since practically Vanilla (though that's debatable since gear back then with Resistances and what not had more of an importance and stats were all over the place, but everything had a set value of both Primary/Secondary stats like we had up until Mists).

    Instead we get this system which is arguably worse but adds more variety. It adds more to the grind, which is the issue I have with it, but it's not Homogenization.

    The "agenda" I'm talking about is the fact you constantly have gripes with things without actually being able to call out the real issue, and focusing on ant hills rather than mountains. IE, in this case, using Homogenization as a scapegoat to highlight a problem you have with the system, when that isn't even the issue. At all. Nor does it have anything to do with the issue pertaining to the randomization of gear.

    Everything about the new system is the opposite of Homogenization. In the past, we always had a cookie cutter build. Every character was built the same. Every character wanted the same exact piece of loot.

    Now, we still have BIS items, but they vary in potency, bonuses, etc. It's the exact opposite of Homogenization, but it has a number of problems in and of itself as well.

    There's your in depth response.
    Last edited by Mawnix; 2016-06-15 at 04:13 PM.
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  4. #24
    All the RNG have removed all excitement in gearing for me. I'll probably do all the content once and then quit progressing my character until the next content patch. If there's no tangible and reachable goal I can't really see the point in participating.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    It isnt incentive to keep doing anything. When you dont get your bis drop you are frustrated even when item you droped is upgrade you still leave in frustration knowing that item is less powerfull version of something what you will have to farm for weeks and maybe dont even get. When you get reward in RNG system player feel reliave not happines.

    This system actualy makes players more anngry and frustraited then just dont get drop with set stats at all. And most of taht frustraion ends as unsubcribed player.
    if you go to casino to win everything youre gonna have a bad time, but if you go there to spin the wheel once or twice youll have quite a lot of fun. and the same applies to wow, if you play to get full titanforged equip you are gonna have a bad time, however if you just play the game for the normal ilvl rewards then you will have quite a lot of fun, and for a lot longer time than you would with fixed rewards(once you get it youre done, while with random rewards there is always a chance for upgrade).

    not to mention even with fixed rewards you can do the content a thousand times and still not get it, and unlike random rewards, where you just need to switch your mentality from "titanforged is required" to "titanforged is a nice upgrade" to not get upset about bad luck streak, with fixed rewards there is nothing you can do about it, you either get it or you dont, and since its an item you need it can get pretty frustrating. the point is that with random rewards your BiS is the standard item, while with fixed rewards th one item is your BiS, getting it might take longer than random BiS item and once you get it there are no more chances for an upgrade.

    i can see where youre coming from, but overall, random rewards are better, at least for the open world and dungeon content where you dont really need to min max your character. i could see this being a problem in raids, but there the loot is fixed.

  6. #26
    Herald of the Titans Sylreick's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't like the fact that gear from bosses have turned into pieces like the greens with "of the monkey" on it or whatever. I can see it being done in normal and on greens, maybe on world drop blues as well. In heroics/mythic-mythic+ though, I'd want to know that that certain piece from the boss will be good for me even if I don't get the bonus stats or upgrades. I think those bonus stats and upgrades are worth rerunning the content by themselves rather than be at the mercy of the RNGesus for even the non-upgraded bonus stat-less piece to be the right secondary set up. It just feels really piss poor to end up getting a piece that you want nothing to do with even if it might be better for the primary stat. Worse, when you get the piece you want to drop and it's upgraded with a bonus stat and the secondaries are the two worst ones for your spec/class... what a total let down.

    That said, I guess it is a way to make content last longer...
    "Believing something is not an accomplishment. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because “strength of belief” is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. Listen to any “die-hard” conservative or liberal talk about their deepest beliefs and you are listening to somebody who will never hear what you say on any matter that matters to them — unless you believe the same. Wherever there is a belief, there is a closed door."

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    I preferred when the item just was the item.

    This is Flurry Axe, it's epic and got a chance on hit effect to swing another time.

    I prefer that far more than; Flurry Axe, it's epic and got a chance on hit effect, got a chance to either drop as warforged or titanforged, with or without gem slot, with or without secondary stats.

    The search for the item becomes so dragged out its not even a fun feeling to get the "perfect stats" item you wanted, it just feel like a relief that the item is over to be farmed.
    It is a shame that our mindsets take a plus and make it a minus. Before it was kill X and get an Axe, they added a chance for the Axe to be 1% better and now the 1% better axe is the only acceptable item. We've reversed the thinking. we act like the "normal" drop is a failed drop. I wonder how much we apply this thinking to outside of the game.

    Looks like we need Blizzard to be our nannies and take away options because we can't handle it.

  8. #28
    Elemental Lord Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    I actually like this. The only thing I want with more fixed chance of getting is the transmog items. You don't really most of the time aim to get upgrades, you get them anyway. That is if you are raiding. It's good to get better pieces before the raiding starts, but after it does you will get pieces that are upgrades. Therefore the chance to get items you want to transmog is more important.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    I've played since far before Mists. They've made it so that secondary stats can be randomized and there are still BIS for slots. I do, though, find it annoying to get a piece of gear and not be a set "format" as it used to be.

    However, you're saying they're Homogenizing gear. If anything you're not using the right word, since that's a word people constantly toss around when they don't know what's actually wrong with something. They use it as a sort of "taboo" word to scare people because "MRRRRR HOMOGENIZATION BAD" even though, outside of classes, there really aren't any other examples of it within the game.

    We have more choice in the gear we get, though there's still what's "BIS". The whole point behind having secondary stats randomized was to add more choice and incentive to gaining gear-- to attempt to add more depth to a system that was just "grind this instance until X, Y, and Z specific pieces drop for you". Now it's more like "grind this instance until every X, Y, and Z drop, but sometimes you're gonna have A, B, C, D, etc. drop, which do power up your character, but since they can't bring out your character's full itemized potential, they're not as good".

    I have my gripes with the new system after the Versatility spam I'd get on a number of pieces in WoD, but it's not Homogenization. My critique is for you to actually act like you know what you're talking about. If they were continuing to "unite, uniform", make gear the fucking same copy paste where you grind an instance for that specific piece, we'd have the same system we had since practically Vanilla (though that's debatable since gear back then with Resistances and what not had more of an importance and stats were all over the place, but everything had a set value of both Primary/Secondary stats like we had up until Mists).

    Instead we get this system which is arguably worse but adds more variety. It adds more to the grind, which is the issue I have with it, but it's not Homogenization.

    The "agenda" I'm talking about is the fact you constantly have gripes with things without actually being able to call out the real issue, and focusing on ant hills rather than mountains. IE, in this case, using Homogenization as a scapegoat to highlight a problem you have with the system, when that isn't even the issue. At all. Nor does it have anything to do with the issue pertaining to the randomization of gear.

    Everything about the new system is the opposite of Homogenization. In the past, we always had a cookie cutter build. Every character was built the same. Every character wanted the same exact piece of loot.

    Now, we still have BIS items, but they vary in potency, bonuses, etc. It's the exact opposite of Homogenization, but it has a number of problems in and of itself as well.

    There's your in depth response.
    As a serious raider, the "we have more options" argument is false. If I need a weapon (which Legion does not involve, yaadi yaada), I need atleast one of the secondary stats to not be complete ass. As a warrior, I want Crit and Mastery on my gear. If a wep or item drops that has haste/vers, it is utterly fucking useless to me. If I could CHOOSE between 2 or 3 stat combos when the weapon or piece drops, the sure, yes, we have choices, but being blindly reliant on RNG is not "having more choices", it is a fucking huge ass annoying RNG wall to get past. Now add in WF/Socket/Tertiary atributes, and voila, the chance you get the ACTUAL BiS item is less than 1/10, and from dungeons, 1/20 atleast, + the 10+ items per spec and class from EACH dungeon boss' loot table in WoD. Say what you will, but while it can be fun to get a SUPER SHINY HC/MYTHIC RAIDER GOOD ITEM for a casual player, having to more or less actively FULL on grind for that stuff is retarded for people who care about thier performance. Flat out, it is a shitty solution to reduce dev time and copy/pasting recipes, which since we still do not get from raids anymore, WHY limit crafters to just a full set of plate/cloth/mail/leather stats-wise and HOPE they manage to craft something with right stats so it will sell at all? Like... It is artificially increasing length of content for the pure sake of wasting peoples time to "stay busy" until next content is released. And a bad way of doing so when it comes to time spent > output effect for the consumer.

  10. #30
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    so since when has this game not been about RNG? man i remember back in vanilla when you killed a boss your peice of gear allways dropped, and you allways won it :3
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  11. #31
    Focus on the base stats and ilvl, be happy if you get something even better.

    There's plenty of steady progression, it just won't end with you getting the best possible shit from a certain source and then that content becomes irrelevant. I see nothing wrong with it, Beta is a blast with people actually out and doing stuff rather than sitting in cities queuing into LFD for x amount of times so that they can go to a vendor and buy epix...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    It is a shame that our mindsets take a plus and make it a minus. Before it was kill X and get an Axe, they added a chance for the Axe to be 1% better and now the 1% better axe is the only acceptable item. We've reversed the thinking. we act like the "normal" drop is a failed drop. I wonder how much we apply this thinking to outside of the game.

    Looks like we need Blizzard to be our nannies and take away options because we can't handle it.
    "We" referring to the people with entitlement disorders. Plenty of us see the plus. :3

  12. #32
    Deleted
    RNG will even out over longer periods of time (like entire tiers, let alone the xpack), so I wouldn't worry too much about it unless racing. For the world first race this WILL be a p.i.t.a. - but then again, let the guys who are supposedly elite put some sweat into it, rather than prepping most bosses on beta and then just split-clearing 2-3 times and going for the kill. People whine a lot about the race being done in a week or two now, while it took way longer in the past. Well, the reason it did, was because of the grind. Want more longevity? Grind. There is no other way, because we've slowly gotten to the point where making boss encounters MORE complex will just make them unwieldy clusterfucks.

    This is what I think, from the perspective of a casual mythic raider. Feel free to disagree.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    • You do dungeons hoping to randomly get a piece of higher than normal ilvl gear, that randomly has the stats you want. Or preferably, a random piece of legendary gear that has the effect you want.
    • No different than live.

    • You do dailies for the same hope as dungeons: randomly getting the stuff you want and hoping it randomly has the stats you want. And unless I'm mistaken, after awhile you'll be hoping to randomly be assigned a faction you havent capped off yet each day.
    Tanaan Jungle is the same way.

  14. PvP you hope your loot box randomly has the gear you need with the proper stats on it.
Same with the live PvP honor chests.

  • You do mythic dungeons hoping for that random bit of gear, but also that you randomly get good modifiers as well.
  • Same as on live.

  • You craft gear until you get the randomized stats you want and then just keep upgrading that with an upgrade item you get by destroying gear and getting random amounts of upgrade material.
  • Same as on live.

    So in summary, you are complaining about nothing.
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  • #34
    Herald of the Titans Sylreick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I just wonder for who? If I now get a piece for my ...say...priest with mastery and versatility I am happy. I know it would be better with Mastery and Haste and even better with just all points in mastery, but it will work. So will it make content last longer for guilds who are so "bad" at beating mechanics, that they need the perfect gear push?

    I can actually only think of one instance where "content lasts longer" and that is my Paladin doing Walled City very week for the damn Mosscrusher Sabatons. And that is like 10 minutes and probably not what you had in mind.
    Was more thinking of people that lack the desire to raid. They can keep after the "perfect" piece, and get a sense of progression. But still, there's this obsessive-compulsive side to me that despises haste/versatility pieces as an Arms warrior (even if haste is becoming the new big thing, and versatility being a little better off).
    "Believing something is not an accomplishment. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because “strength of belief” is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. Listen to any “die-hard” conservative or liberal talk about their deepest beliefs and you are listening to somebody who will never hear what you say on any matter that matters to them — unless you believe the same. Wherever there is a belief, there is a closed door."

  • #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Grxl View Post
    This.

    In essence, its been this way since vanilla. Items have a chance to drop from monsters/dungeons, now there just are more items on the table.
    This is not correct. The way loot has worked in Wow has been vastly different than the way loot has worked for other games (D3, for example). In D3, the goal of the game is to get the best loot you can, but the way loot drops prevents you from being able to farm a specific part of the game to get an item, with no guarantee that you will ever see it. Additionally, when you do see it, the stats it rolls are randomly picked within a specific number range AND the specific stat traits you get are chosen at random too. So you have a 3 variable RNG system at work, making it extremely unlikely that you'll ever get the perfect item.

    It's a way to force people to spend more time playing without generating new content.

    Contrast this to the way Wow originally worked (single variable RNG system) and you can see why these changes are upsetting. In WoD, you can farm a specific item from a specific place and that item will be predetermined in stat allocation and quality (for the most part). In Legion, stats are now rolled the same way as in D3, so you have 2 more variables entering into the mix. Now it's not just a matter of seeing the loot drop, it's a matter of seeing the loot roll the right combination of stats in the right amounts, forcing you to play for longer.

    It's a way to keep you playing without creating more content.


    RNG is bad for gaming, it causes complacency and boredom.

  • #36
    This is the influence of Jay Wilson, who brought his love for rng gear from D3 to WoW.

    God I miss reforging.

  • #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post

    "We" referring to the people with entitlement disorders. Plenty of us see the plus. :3
    I prefer to think of it has giving way to obsessive compulsive behavor. Entitlement is used too much, Plus it goes better with my #eyetwitch

  • #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    All sense of progression in Legion is based on randomness.
    • You do dungeons hoping to randomly get a piece of higher than normal ilvl gear, that randomly has the stats you want. Or preferably, a random piece of legendary gear that has the effect you want.
    • You do dailies for the same hope as dungeons: randomly getting the stuff you want and hoping it randomly has the stats you want. And unless I'm mistaken, after awhile you'll be hoping to randomly be assigned a faction you havent capped off yet each day.
    • PvP you hope your loot box randomly has the gear you need with the proper stats on it.
    • You do mythic dungeons hoping for that random bit of gear, but also that you randomly get good modifiers as well.
    • You craft gear until you get the randomized stats you want and then just keep upgrading that with an upgrade item you get by destroying gear and getting random amounts of upgrade material.


    No doubt that WoW in the past has been based on RNG. There is no questioning that. But outside of raiding, its all about hoping you randomly get the right ilvl and the right stats, whereas raiding at least has static stats on items. A lot of progression will be based on getting legendary armor, which you get randomly and kinda hope you get the right piece. PvP has been made random too whereas in the past one the appeals was getting the gear you wanted and needed, rather than being at the mercy of RNG. Even crafting has a new bit of randomness shoved in, and the new purpose for dailies is hoping that you randomly get that piece of gear.

    Choice is something that is rapidly being stripped from WoW in favor of players randomly getting neat loot. Do you think this is a good move, or one they need to bring back a bit? Perhaps going another extreme and bringing back gear vendors and token vendors as we had back in Cata times?
    I disagree. I like that the idea of moving away from sims and BiS lists. It takes away from the excitement of getting a drop. "ABC dropped but XYZ is BiS, I guess it's okay."
    That said, it's a very RP thing to want to maximize our gains by hunting for what's considered to be the best drops in the game (at the time). That's something we're kind of losing with the big ilvl ranges we're going to see in Legion, but again, it's RNG.
    It might suck.
    It might not.

  • #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
    Isn't it the other way around? If I don't really have the time then I want to know I have x item after a certain amount of time. If I had time to spare I could just do it a few extra times to get the drop.
    I rather get lucky then grind for certain amount of time. Its like killing a raidboss every bosskill in dungeons always a chance of sweet loot with high ilvl

  • #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post

    However, you're saying they're Homogenizing gear. If anything you're not using the right word, since that's a word people constantly toss around when they don't know what's actually wrong with something. They use it as a sort of "taboo" word to scare people because "MRRRRR HOMOGENIZATION BAD" even though, outside of classes, there really aren't any other examples of it within the game.
    The are unified. The gear (almost all) is a main stat, stam, with 2 RNG secondaries.

    Before there were hundreds of specific items that used itemization for set stats. Someone at Blizzard would make sure that if you gathered enough of these items you could hit cap, expertise cap, block cap, defense cap, etc.

    Now all of that was removed for generic armor tokens... with rng for which secondary type, secondary amounts, potential for WF and sockets. Adding RNG does not negate the fact that they reduced the number of secondary stats, and made everything the same. No one is looking over gear at Blizzard making sure it will meet your needs. Because they removed the need to cap anything. Now it's just bigger numbers are better... the only thing you need to know is what your secondary stat prioritization is. Seems like homogenization to me. Making as much of gearing as uniform as possible... then letting RNG make it appear more unique.

    That doesn't even take into effect that now the same gear has both int/agi, int/strength on it to be used for both specs. Which further unifies the gear tokens prior to rolling.

    In effect ALL gear is now partially rolled Baleful tokens of a set iLevel that distributes the itemization and roll RNG options. It doesn't get MORE unified than that.

    But it's not worth arguing. To me it does not make loot more interesting... it makes it less. Which is why I never felt compelled to do anything but a few dungeons.. and only did a couple lfr wings to be able to sign up for a beta key giveaway. And this form a guy who used to LOVE raiding when it was rewarding.

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