LFR: Success or Failure?

[Jerichofr]

fix'd for you.

You're pretty much spot on.

Many of these wackos seem to think that if they brought back the disastrous TBC endgame style, all would be well with the world, and it simply isn't true.

[Sylv_]

Success, unquestionably.

It took the power to exclude others out of the hands of players. No other mode in-game does that.

100% a success in that regard. One of the best features Blizzard came up with. It was so successful in fact, that many other MMOs adopted a similar system.

The only people that think it's a failure are those that don't want others doing "MUH CONTENTZ!!!" or getting "MUH EPIX!!!"

I don't fall into either of your "witty" categories.
LFR is just another fake form of content that is almost mandatory. Yes, I want to run the same raid about 17 times.
Do you call that compelling content? I sure as fuck don't m8.

But hey, sheeple will enjoy whatever they are told to enjoy, and will respond in like to how they're told to respond in like.

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Let me ask you this:

Do you have access to the raw data that shows raid participation among active players before LFR was implemented?

Do you have access to the raw data that shows raid participation among active players after LFR was implemented?

Then its unquestionable because you aren't asking the right questions. Even if you were asking the right questions, you don't have access to relevant data that would allow you to make conclusions as to its success or failure.

Just because there are a billion people using LFR, doesn't make it a success.
If you're grading success on participation then you have to also realize LFR is basically forced content. Of course there will be large participation that gives a false positive of "success."

[A dot Ham]

The major problem is how the game has become more focused on catch up then progression. WoW should keep you in normal dungeons until you learn how to play well enough for heroic dungeons.

By doing so you make world quests once more a option for progression as well as profession. WoWs failing is the idea that everyone needs to see everything. To be frank they shouldn't when you look at vanilla and tbc even wrath people where always in different spots doing different content. This varied approach is needed.

WoDs biggest problem was it didn't have enough difficult content and it flooded players with rewards for doing easy content (pvp gear, TJ, LFR,Garrisons). This destroyed progression and left us with people who did very little content complaining there was none.

If LFR dropped gear on par with normal dungeons it would fit in fine with wow. The problem is the content isn't good enough that people will do it if its rewards are properly tuned so they need to bribe people to run it.

Bring back a proper progression based end game and you will see wow grow again.

Wrong. All that does is shift participation.

You are making assumptions based on incomplete and misread data.

(1) Subs were in decline at the end of WotLK and continued to decline in Cataclysm BEFORE LFR was added with DS. So that (at least in part) debunks your argument right out of the gate.

(2) Raid participation in Cata was abysmal the worst ever. Which is why LFR was added. (Because heaven forbid you go back to WotLK model).

(3) Going "back" to a model that excludes LFR, doesn't encourage players to play more challenging content, it encourages them to quit.

(4) Your ideas only shift participation. Instead of having 9/10 of the players on relevant content (making that content feel alive) you have only 1/10 of the population that will EVER see end game content when it is/was relevant and they are spread out all over the other 9/10 of the content which actually puts a strain on group availability, role needs, etc. It makes the world feel slightly more lived in... but only slightly. Playing on a low pop server in BC and Vanilla you were still unlikely to run into people in the world even in relevant content. I may have ran into 1 or 2 people during my questing experience in vanilla 1-60 WHEN IT WAS RELEVANT.

(5) Catch-up mechanics are required to keep players playing relevant content.

(6) Your assumptions don't factor in any competition to the market. WoW does not simply compete with other MMOs which have significantly increased since the "golden years" which you so obviously refer. WoW competes for your free time. Now more than ever there is a plethora of content available for your consumption. There was a time where a person could consume all of "geek culture" fantasy books, TV shows, movies, ever video game release, etc. I dare say a person could spend 8 hours a day consuming content of their interest and still not be able to keep up. Just because WoW is no longer your number 1 priority and/or favorite... doesn't mean they (Blizzard) have done something wrong. That isn't absolving them of mistakes, but there are factors outside your realm of control/influence.

(7) Dated. Back in 2004 people criticized WoW for its graphics or lack thereof. There were people that refused to play it because of that. For people that is important to, that reason is far more true in 2016 than it was back in 2004.

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I don't fall into either of your "witty" categories.
LFR is just another fake form of content that is almost mandatory. Yes, I want to run the same raid about 17 times.
Do you call that compelling content? I sure as fuck don't m8.

But hey, sheeple will enjoy whatever they are told to enjoy, and will respond in like to how they're told to respond in like.

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Just because there are a billion people using LFR, doesn't make it a success.
If you're grading success on participation then you have to also realize LFR is basically forced content. Of course there will be large participation that gives a false positive of "success."

If LFR is forced content, then raid (with or without it) is forced content.

[primalmatter]

Wrong. All that does is shift participation.

You are making assumptions based on incomplete and misread data.

(1) Subs were in decline at the end of WotLK and continued to decline in Cataclysm BEFORE LFR was added with DS. So that (at least in part) debunks your argument right out of the gate.

(2) Raid participation in Cata was abysmal the worst ever. Which is why LFR was added. (Because heaven forbid you go back to WotLK model).

(3) Going "back" to a model that excludes LFR, doesn't encourage players to play more challenging content, it encourages them to quit.

(4) Your ideas only shift participation. Instead of having 9/10 of the players on relevant content (making that content feel alive) you have only 1/10 of the population that will EVER see end game content when it is/was relevant and they are spread out all over the other 9/10 of the content which actually puts a strain on group availability, role needs, etc. It makes the world feel slightly more lived in... but only slightly. Playing on a low pop server in BC and Vanilla you were still unlikely to run into people in the world even in relevant content. I may have ran into 1 or 2 people during my questing experience in vanilla 1-60 WHEN IT WAS RELEVANT.

(5) Catch-up mechanics are required to keep players playing relevant content.

(6) Your assumptions don't factor in any competition to the market. WoW does not simply compete with other MMOs which have significantly increased since the "golden years" which you so obviously refer. WoW competes for your free time. Now more than ever there is a plethora of content available for your consumption. There was a time where a person could consume all of "geek culture" fantasy books, TV shows, movies, ever video game release, etc. I dare say a person could spend 8 hours a day consuming content of their interest and still not be able to keep up. Just because WoW is no longer your number 1 priority and/or favorite... doesn't mean they (Blizzard) have done something wrong. That isn't absolving them of mistakes, but there are factors outside your realm of control/influence.

(7) Dated. Back in 2004 people criticized WoW for its graphics or lack thereof. There were people that refused to play it because of that. For people that is important to, that reason is far more true in 2016 than it was back in 2004.

1) I am pointing to vanilla's and TBC's progression system I felt Wrath was a step in the wrong direction. Regardless wow doesn't have a unlimited audience we have shown that the potential audience is roughly 10 million quite recently.

2) It was likely lower then past expansions. That was more due to how broken ten man raiding was at the time (certain bosses where unkillable for a while). I can't say why lfr was brought in if we are to believe blue posters it was to let people see the content not gear them.

3) Going back to a progression model encourages players to slowly advance at the difficulty they should be at rather then quieting 2 weeks after lfr comes out because lol no content.

4)Low pop servers need to be merged not connected. WoW has twice over the amount of realms it needs. The game needs a medium pop server as a minim to function the fact this has yet to be addressed is a black eye for blizzard.

5) Relevant content is whatever their skill allows them to complete. TBC at any point in time had multiple relevant raid tiers for most players. Something that hasn't been really seen since. The very end of the game shouldn't be the starting line.

6) WoW has a market and a audience they should appeal to. WoD sold 10 million copies promising a return to burning crusade experience. This was seen in beta as well as arguably beta was a better game then live. Dungeons where harder gear was on a proper progression curve normal's had a function... Speaking as a player who went from alpha to beta to live for WoD what we had in testing was a far better tuned and much more enjoyable game then the garrisoncraft that launched.

7) You can never gain the entire market of video game players you will destroy yourself trying to.

[Jerichofr]

I don't fall into either of your "witty" categories.
LFR is just another fake form of content that is almost mandatory. Yes, I want to run the same raid about 17 times.
Do you call that compelling content? I sure as fuck don't m8.

But hey, sheeple will enjoy whatever they are told to enjoy, and will respond in like to how they're told to respond in like.

LFR is in no way mandatory. If you feel that way, then you lack self-control, and that is a personal problem.

You talk of sheeple, yet here you are parroting what the anti-LFR sheeple have been saying since it was implemented. You are quite the sheeple yourself. Now, please come up with some verifiable data that states that LFR has been a failure and is bad for the game. Until you can do that (and sub numbers do not count because changes in them can not be directly attributed to LFR), you can not prove your point, and you can simply be dismissed as a special snowflake trying to preserve some sort of false "uniqueness" along with everyone else that wants LFR removed or calls it a failure.

LFR was put in the game to help people avoid playing with people like you.

[Glorious Leader]

You're pretty much spot on.

Many of these wackos seem to think that if they brought back the disastrous TBC endgame style, all would be well with the world, and it simply isn't true.

The content is there, granted they could stand to make more but what's available has little to no shelf life SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THEY REMOVED SIGNIFICANT REWARD FACTORS FROM IT. They removed tier from the valor vendor. Moving back to TBC will not correct this fatal flaw. Firing the developers might.

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I don't fall into either of your "witty" categories.
LFR is just another fake form of content that is almost mandatory. Yes, I want to run the same raid about 17 times.
Do you call that compelling content? I sure as fuck don't m8.

But hey, sheeple will enjoy whatever they are told to enjoy, and will respond in like to how they're told to respond in like.

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It's probably overall better for the game if people like you feel forced into content. Now I'd like it to be non raid content, like say forced to run dungeons to cap valor. Or forced into world content for trinkets. But the fact that you're forced is a fairly good indicator that whatever content you feel forced into has got a decent reward behind it. Having said that you could always opt out but yea..

[primalmatter]

The content is there, granted they could stand to make more but what's available has little to no shelf life SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THEY REMOVED SIGNIFICANT REWARD FACTORS FROM IT. They removed tier from the valor vendor. Moving back to TBC will not correct this fatal flaw. Firing the developers might.

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It's probably overall better for the game if people like you feel forced into content. Now I'd like it to be non raid content, like say forced to run dungeons to cap valor. Or forced into world content for trinkets. But the fact that you're forced is a fairly good indicator that whatever content you feel forced into has got a decent reward behind it. Having said that you could always opt out but yea..

Content should always entice you to move up the difficulty ladder. It doesn't make sense for it to move you below your skill level.

One encourages better play and builds a community around it. The other frustrates people and makes them quit.

Its why TBC is the crown gem and everyone hates WoD even if casuals have trouble grasping what it is they hated about it.

[A dot Ham]

1) I am pointing to vanilla's and TBC's progression system I felt Wrath was a step in the wrong direction. Regardless wow doesn't have a unlimited audience we have shown that the potential audience is roughly 10 million quite recently.

2) It was likely lower then past expansions. That was more due to how broken ten man raiding was at the time (certain bosses where unkillable for a while). I can't say why lfr was brought in if we are to believe blue posters it was to let people see the content not gear them.

3) Going back to a progression model encourages players to slowly advance at the difficulty they should be at rather then quieting 2 weeks after lfr comes out because lol no content.

4)Low pop servers need to be merged not connected. WoW has twice over the amount of realms it needs. The game needs a medium pop server as a minim to function the fact this has yet to be addressed is a black eye for blizzard.

5) Relevant content is whatever their skill allows them to complete. TBC at any point in time had multiple relevant raid tiers for most players. Something that hasn't been really seen since. The very end of the game shouldn't be the starting line.

6) WoW has a market and a audience they should appeal to. WoD sold 10 million copies promising a return to burning crusade experience. This was seen in beta as well as arguably beta was a better game then live. Dungeons where harder gear was on a proper progression curve normal's had a function... Speaking as a player who went from alpha to beta to live for WoD what we had in testing was a far better tuned and much more enjoyable game then the garrisoncraft that launched.

7) You can never gain the entire market of video game players you will destroy yourself trying to.

1) This is based on what exactly? WoD sales... gonna slap with you "relevant information" one more time and see if it sinks in. We were talking about LFR success not WoW success.

2) Which is raid participation... I said nothing about gear. Not saying it was the right decision by any means. To me that's at the least ammunition to revert your raid model to a previous iteration... not add LFR... but hey.

3) No. It doesn't. If you unsub you are asked why. Part of LFR was to make raiding and endgame available to people with weird work hours/less available commitment.

4) The only thing you addressed was server pop. Which wasn't the focus of that point.

5) Skill has NEVER been a factor. Seeing content is not its own reward. Skill is what separates mage A from mage B. It why [Uber Guild] chooses mage A over mage B, that doesn't mean that mage B isn't capable of completing said content. The majority of players in TBC didn't even see the inside of Black Temple. Which wasn't even endgame. That is TERRIBLE design. The only thing that kept players at what you perceive as "difficulty level for their skill" was the gear they possessed, and there are many factors outside a players control that prevents/prevented them from increasing that level. Futhermore, the cyclical sub behavior and Blizzard's accommodation to that has worked to their advantage, I would venture to say the sub decline would be far worse if Blizzard actually intended you to remain subbed year around.

6) I don't know where this promise to return to BC experience was... I assume this is another false assumption. I didn't play alpha or beta for WoD. So i will have to defer, but while changes obviously take place, I can't imagine the experience was vastly different as you are suggesting. As a vanilla player, WoD has actually been my longest uninterrupted sub period... go figure.

7) No one said they should. But to ignore that there is simply more competition now in 2016 than there was even 10 years ago... is both stubborn and ignorant.

[primalmatter]

1) This is based on what exactly? WoD sales... gonna slap with you "relevant information" one more time and see if it sinks in. We were talking about LFR success not WoW success.

2) Which is raid participation... I said nothing about gear. Not saying it was the right decision by any means. To me that's at the least ammunition to revert your raid model to a previous iteration... not add LFR... but hey.

3) No. It doesn't. If you unsub you are asked why. Part of LFR was to make raiding and endgame available to people with weird work hours/less available commitment.

4) The only thing you addressed was server pop. Which wasn't the focus of that point.

5) Skill has NEVER been a factor. Seeing content is not its own reward. Skill is what separates mage A from mage B. It why [Uber Guild] chooses mage A over mage B, that doesn't mean that mage B isn't capable of completing said content. The majority of players in TBC didn't even see the inside of Black Temple. Which wasn't even endgame. That is TERRIBLE design. The only thing that kept players at what you perceive as "difficulty level for their skill" was the gear they possessed, and there are many factors outside a players control that prevents/prevented them from increasing that level. Futhermore, the cyclical sub behavior and Blizzard's accommodation to that has worked to their advantage, I would venture to say the sub decline would be far worse if Blizzard actually intended you to remain subbed year around.

6) I don't know where this promise to return to BC experience was... I assume this is another false assumption. I didn't play alpha or beta for WoD. So i will have to defer, but while changes obviously take place, I can't imagine the experience was vastly different as you are suggesting. As a vanilla player, WoD has actually been my longest uninterrupted sub period... go figure.

7) No one said they should. But to ignore that there is simply more competition now in 2016 than there was even 10 years ago... is both stubborn and ignorant.

1) LFR is part of a problem with current wow. The idea that everything can be completed without failing anything on a never lose mode is a real problem for wow

2) Without excessively powerful gear lfr dies. It is pretty proven at this point even with what it offered in highmaul and BRF compared to anything else it still wasn't considered good enough

3) That isn't a good thing. Supplying them with content for their skill level is what the goal should be. If you don't have time for a mmo the mmo shouldn't be gutted to suit you

4)Yet it was the main concern of the point. The reason why wow didn't work well in your example was because the realm was low pop.

5) Still was a common factor throughout wow till arguably late cata. You are right though seeing content isn't a reward. It isn't even all that fun. TBC was amazing design because players had content to enjoy up to and including the last raid. They where not put into a pretend raid where nothing could hurt them and they would be buffed till they won it is why lfr is such a hollow and empty experience. As for your bit about gear WoD has proven that beyond a shadow of the doubt it isn't gear that stops most players from advancing.

6)WoD in beta felt much more like burning crusades then it did to mist of panda. Dungeons were more on par with what CMs where at launch and had trash packs in some cases removed from them on live. The game in beta was actually the most changed I have ever seen when it hit live to the point of the experience was barely recognizable.

7) There isn't really more competition though most other mmos are in a nose dive and never got close enough to be considered competition in reality there is what... final fantasy? Blizzard should be marketing to a audience not trying to capture all audiences.

[rmack]

7) No one said they should. But to ignore that there is simply more competition now in 2016 than there was even 10 years ago... is both stubborn and ignorant.

And with WoW losing half it's sub base within the last 5 years not one MMO out there is even remotely close to WoW in sub numbers and revenue. Sure we have more "MMORPG" games out now then 10 years ago but you can hardly call them real "competition" to WoW. Blizzard is pretty much setup like nintendo, they can release a shitty product for the next 10 years and still be way above most in revenue.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Content should always entice you to move up the difficulty ladder. It doesn't make sense for it to move you below your skill level.

One encourages better play and builds a community around it. The other frustrates people and makes them quit.

Its why TBC is the crown gem and everyone hates WoD even if casuals have trouble grasping what it is they hated about it.

You're right. But he won't ever see that. He is here to only make you bitter because you enjoy content he doesn't. I am sure we are going to hear about how Blizzard needs to fire everyone, anyone happy with the game needs to have their content destroyed, and only what he thinks needs to be promoted to the only form of game play and then finally.. yes finally.. the whole universe that has been crying out for only what he wants will be at peace and happiness. He is just a troll son.. a cool.. calculating one.. but just one nontheless. A few pages back he was trying to say everyone that raids is a sociopath. Like he is credited enough to make that call in the first place let along label a whole community as such because he doesn't approve of how they raid. That is right.. because they like to raid at a level he doesn't approve of.

[Jerichofr]

You're right. But he won't ever see that. He is here to only make you bitter because you enjoy content he doesn't. I am sure we are going to hear about how Blizzard needs to fire everyone, anyone happy with the game needs to have their content destroyed, and only what he thinks needs to be promoted to the only form of game play and then finally.. yes finally.. the whole universe that has been crying out for only what he wants will be at peace and happiness. He is just a troll son.. a cool.. calculating one.. but just one nontheless. A few pages back he was trying to say everyone that raids is a sociopath. Like he is credited enough to make that call in the first place let along label a whole community as such because he doesn't approve of how they raid. That is right.. because they like to raid at a level he doesn't approve of.

Primal is a troll also, he will try to spin anything you say into an argument against LFR and for his precious TBC exclusivity(TBC's endgame strategy was horrible, and there's a reason why WoW and almost all of its competitors have never gone back to such a broken system.) You can't take anything he says seriously, because he doesn't care about WoW, he cares about making sure he has what others don't. Which is the ONLY thing that anyone against LFR cares about.

[A dot Ham]

You're right. But he won't ever see that. He is here to only make you bitter because you enjoy content he doesn't. I am sure we are going to hear about how Blizzard needs to fire everyone, anyone happy with the game needs to have their content destroyed, and only what he thinks needs to be promoted to the only form of game play and then finally.. yes finally.. the whole universe that has been crying out for only what he wants will be at peace and happiness. He is just a troll son.. a cool.. calculating one.. but just one nontheless. A few pages back he was trying to say everyone that raids is a sociopath. Like he is credited enough to make that call in the first place let along label a whole community as such because he doesn't approve of how they raid. That is right.. because they like to raid at a level he doesn't approve of.

I love my salty passive aggressive followers that post snide comments about me whilst through not so cleverly veiled responses to other users.

You aren't fooling anyone. Pull me off your ignore list and be brave enough to confront me with your dissenting opinion or don't bother.

It speaks volumes about you that you ignore me and then try to convince the rest of the community what a "bad guy" I am.

Its also laughable that I am supposed to value your opinion of raiding and difficulty therein... but if you support LFR... your opinion doesn't matter and you are obviously trolling.

You can have issue with the game, you can love the game. But to try and put the success or failure of it on LFR is baseless.

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And with WoW losing half it's sub base within the last 5 years not one MMO out there is even remotely close to WoW in sub numbers and revenue. Sure we have more "MMORPG" games out now then 10 years ago but you can hardly call them real "competition" to WoW. Blizzard is pretty much setup like nintendo, they can release a shitty product for the next 10 years and still be way above most in revenue.

I love how I can stir people into their very first posts. Whether you view it as competition or not is irrelevant. If you look back, I said WoW isn't merely competing with with other MMOs but any and everything that you spend your free time on. The amount of consumable content available from TV, Movies, books, music, console games, PC games, MMO games, mobile games is overwhelming. Point is, sometimes WoW gets bumped and it isn't necessarily anyone's (or anything's) fault.

[primalmatter]

Primal is a troll also, he will try to spin anything you say into an argument against LFR and for his precious TBC exclusivity(TBC's endgame strategy was horrible, and there's a reason why WoW and almost all of its competitors have never gone back to such a broken system.) You can't take anything he says seriously, because he doesn't care about WoW, he cares about making sure he has what others don't. Which is the ONLY thing that anyone against LFR cares about.

I both full clear mythic and have elite pvp gear...

I already have things other won't...

[rmack]

Its also laughable that I am supposed to value your opinion of raiding and difficulty therein... but if you support LFR... your opinion doesn't matter and you are obviously trolling.

Christ this guy is delusional "you support an ideal that I don't agree with on a personal level so your whole argument is irrelevant". One would think if you have a strong opinion on something your number one goal should be to debate and convert non believers (not silence them).

[Baronthefirst]

For what LFR was intended for it succeeded but for the types of player and player behavior it sadly fostered. It failed. So it has good points and bad points.

[rmack]

For what LFR was intended for it succeeded but for the types of player and player behavior it sadly fostered. It failed. So it has good points and bad points.

Unless by adding LFR it directly affected your raid guild and everyone in the guild just wanted to faceroll epics with randoms from now on. I don't see it effected anything other then the mainstream typical WoW player (that you most likely disliked from the start of vanilla).

[EyelessCrow]

I don't like it because by the time I've actually gotten through a queue, gotten to the boss, wiped due to afkers, bads, don't cares, killed the boss. I might have well just joined a raiding guild and gone through less headache for better gear. The upside to LFR is I can pick and choose what nights, if at all, I want to have that headache.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

You aren't fooling anyone. Pull me off your ignore list and be brave enough to confront me with your dissenting opinion or don't bother.

Who said you were on ignore. You are one of my favorite people to laugh at every day.

Cheers mate.

[Deleted]

Define a "fair amount"? Without match making its probably like 2 people..m

Well I don't know, but I always see a huge number of group being made in the group finder and when I start one it is usually full in a matter of minutes.

It's the most effective way to gain valor, it rewards gear up to 725 ilvl and you can farm it comfortably from ilvl 690.