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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Partysaurus Rex View Post
    LOL subs! Case and point.

    Not only are you not using relevant data... you aren't even using current data.
    He never seems to get that correlation =/= causation. Failure of logic 101.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Partysaurus Rex View Post
    LOL subs! Case and point.

    Not only are you not using relevant data... you aren't even using current data.
    Your data would be what then?

    Please enlighten me I would love to know. I can paint a pretty picture of what happened using almost what... ten years of sub numbers to show the cause and effect easy challenge less content has done. Even WoD fits into it nicely as it shows the potential audience blizzards game can generate.

    You have what exactly?

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by rmack View Post
    Every MMO has a huge amount of entitled players who want scalable end game content (EQ started the downward spiral of cratering to the masses even before WoW was released, if anything WoW is still copying the EQ model to a T). The real questions is did it affect your core group of friends into not wanting to commit time to pre-made raiding because LFR was enough for them.
    It's affected many not just my own. Numerous guilds have had recruitment issues(however if you were mythic it was also slightly tied to mythic being 20 man as of WoD). I mean even I don't take killing an end boss on anything seriously personally because LFR has devalued my personal experience. Having 4 modes is just ridiculous and being able to opt into easy mode with no real draw back makes 0 reason to do other modes. The only reason to do mythic right now is the 100% drop rate on end boss mounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Partysaurus Rex View Post
    LOL subs! Case and point.

    Not only are you not using relevant data... you aren't even using current data.
    Case in point*

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Game grows when it had a very ridged and mostly linear progression system. The more it veered from that the fast subs dropped.

    My good friend you are the one who came to a pistol duel but forgot to bring bullets.
    Actually the game just had more players coming in than leaving. Most players didn't even reach max level before quitting as well and that's mean they weren't participating in your glorious progression system. Most players weren't raiding either according to blizzard so once again they weren't participating.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    By making that statement, you assume the only difference between WoD and MoP is the ilvl of the gear dropping in LFR. Which, obviously, isn't the case.

    The way you re thinking is exactly why blizzard fails to make wow interesting again : the sub don't decline for merely one reason, and a MMORPG is also, on one of its aspect, one piece of art. As such you can't really break it down into a summation of individual features. That also does explain why wow vanilla and TBC worked : as a whole, even with all its shortcoming if you were looking at the game closely, it just worked.
    Personally I think it had very little to do with ilvl, or even trinkets/set bonuses. I think many people left because of how generic looking the gear was. But thats based on a handful of conversations and cannot be quantified.

    But you are absolutely correct in the fact that subscription decline or lack of player engagement cannot be caused by any one individual feature, and as such I stand by my original statement.

    LFR success or failure? Is vague, how do you measure success?

    So (1) you aren't even asking the right question(s) and (2) beyond subscription data you don't even have the relevant data to make that determination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post

    Case in point*
    Intellegent...

    Memory don't fail me now! Ya bastert.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by foofoocuddlypoopz View Post
    Actually the game just had more players coming in than leaving. Most players didn't even reach max level before quitting as well and that's mean they weren't participating in your glorious progression system.
    That doesn't explain WoD initial sales.

    It shows there is a market just as if not larger for that type of game. Now I don't know if that is still the case they burned a lot of people with WoD but it shows potential to say the least.

  7. #727
    Overwhelming success for what it's meant to be.

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Your data would be what then?

    Please enlighten me I would love to know. I can paint a pretty picture of what happened using almost what... ten years of sub numbers to show the cause and effect easy challenge less content has done. Even WoD fits into it nicely as it shows the potential audience blizzards game can generate.

    You have what exactly?
    Can you? Can you paint a pretty picture? I love pretty pictures.

    I would assume that picture only includes information that supports your hypothesis and ignores everything else.

    But I am very interested to see the "potential audience" data and how Blizzard is failing to capitalize on it/them.

    *grabs popcorn*

    "This is gonna be good!"

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Partysaurus Rex View Post
    Personally I think it had very little to do with ilvl, or even trinkets/set bonuses. I think many people left because of how generic looking the gear was. But thats based on a handful of conversations and cannot be quantified.

    But you are absolutely correct in the fact that subscription decline or lack of player engagement cannot be caused by any one individual feature, and as such I stand by my original statement.

    LFR success or failure? Is vague, how do you measure success?

    So (1) you aren't even asking the right question(s) and (2) beyond subscription data you don't even have the relevant data to make that determination.

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    Intellegent...

    Memory don't fail me now! Ya bastert.
    It's just one of my peeves like I see people saying "tow the line between X and X" and I'm like wtf it's toe. Another gem "would of" and "could of" both irritate me.

    I have to admit I google shear vs sheer every time I write either.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    That doesn't explain WoD initial sales.

    It shows there is a market just as if not larger for that type of game. Now I don't know if that is still the case they burned a lot of people with WoD but it shows potential to say the least.
    Mist had almost as many subscribers on launch. It could've been the shift in theme and promise of difficulty but looks like they just managed to get there initial players back. Mist also had better subscriber retention than warlords.

    Last edited by Varvara Spiros Gelashvili; 2016-06-16 at 01:29 AM.
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  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerichofr View Post
    LFR is in no way mandatory. If you feel that way, then you lack self-control, and that is a personal problem.

    You talk of sheeple, yet here you are parroting what the anti-LFR sheeple have been saying since it was implemented. You are quite the sheeple yourself. Now, please come up with some verifiable data that states that LFR has been a failure and is bad for the game. Until you can do that (and sub numbers do not count because changes in them can not be directly attributed to LFR), you can not prove your point, and you can simply be dismissed as a special snowflake trying to preserve some sort of false "uniqueness" along with everyone else that wants LFR removed or calls it a failure.

    LFR was put in the game to help people avoid playing with people like you.
    LoL... I am so sorry you're stuck in a thinking pattern that you're in.
    I commend those who can view a situation that confronts their personal beliefs, and learn / change.
    Now why don't you prove that it was a success?

    Where did I ever say that I want "uniqueness" preserved?
    LFR is cancerous. Look at the type of gameplay it promotes. It promotes the, "This is so easy, I don't have to listen, we can just faceroll attempts until it dies. I need not to learn anything because it can be just given to me."

    LFR is free items. Unfortunately, you are forced to run it on characters that are not your main and maybe don't raid with them. Need to do the legendary? Gotta run LFR. It's mandatory for character progression.

    I guess if I am an elitist, then sorry to hear that you aren't good enough to raid. I mean, I mise well sit in your definition and abuse you, right? Cause, I am the type of player that shitters like you had LFR created for, right?

    Jesus Christ man.
    I was a Death's Demise.
    Those were the good old days.

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by foofoocuddlypoopz View Post
    The gear rewards stop at some point though and nobody is gonna run them forever.
    The gear rewards stop at Mythic raiding gear.
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  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    There hasn't been an LFR thread for awhile, so I thought I would see what the community thinks.

    In your opinion, do you think the LFR system that has now been a part of the game since the end of Cata (Dragon Soul), do you think its been a success or a failure?

    In some respects LFR has benefits. There's no denying that. In other respects, it completely undermines the spirit of the game and what an MMO should be.

    In my opinion it has been an absolute failure for many reasons, but for 2 main reasons:

    1) Destroyed the community - Players literally are no longer inclined to even speak to one another anymore. We are all now just drones that play the UI queue up game.

    2) Players are worse skillwise - Players are no longer expected or even need to get better because things die regardless of effort in LFR.

    What do you think? Why do you think that way?
    I played since vanila. Pugs pre-cata were just as silent, and just as anti-social, with people going "gogogogogogo" and getting upset if people talked. So, I don't agree that LFR alone destroyed the social aspect of the game, but it did have it's role - but it wasn't added on a whim, it was a highly requested feature to end the "3 hours in Stormwind to pug a dungeon" problem. But, like anything else, players abuse it - so I don't think LFR is inherently a bad thing, I think it's abuse is, and that can't be designed - player will take advantage of anything they can, no matter what Blizzard does. If you removed LFR and LFG, getting runs would be a lot harder, because you'd be back to "what's your ilevel?" and cockblocking of content for the majority of players.

    The player skill thing is not just LFR - it's the character boost, it's players getting through questing as fast as possible, so they don't spend time learning their class, it's heirlooms, which have removed any challenge in leveling content, and it's player attitudes.

    I think this way, because I've seen the state of the game since the first week of release. Some things havent changed at all, some have gotten worse, and player attitudes are #1 on that list. Players helped people level in the early years, spent time helping other play better, made guilds to help people level and be social, and provide services like enchanting and gear.

    In almost every case of changes made, they're abused and cried about by the "gogogogo" jerks, the "You must outgear this dungeon" nonsense, the "my time is more important than yours, so if you stop to do a quest or need repairs, GTFO noob" assholes, and the elitists who just can't shut the fuck up bragging about their alts or their guild and sneer and make shitty comments while on LFR runs.

    So, failure? Depends on your perspective. I think they're great. Other people will disagree. And assholes will ruin it for everyone. LFR does not force anyone to not talk - the reason people don't talk is they don't want the assholes attacking them if they do - I've been on enough runs where any comments are met with "STFU NOOB" to know it's a real thing. So it's shut up and grind through it without pissing off the neckbeard who threatens to derail the run by arguing endlessly with the tank or healer, or demanding people get booted for low dps, or any of the other bullshit things they pull. I got to the point, back when i still played, that I stopped taking shit from players like that, and it got a lot more fun when they were told to shut the fuck up. Or more fun, tell them they can be replaced - no better tantrum can be found than when you tell an elitist tank they can be replaced. And were.

    And, players with less skill SHOULD be in LFR, that's who it was designed for. If you want perfection, min/maxing, and in depth knowledge of class and abilities, join a raiding guild. LFR is to see the raid on easy mode, for lesser reward, it's not designed for the Elitist Jerk fan who has BiS on everything and executes their rotation perfectly. Blizzard made content just for them, it's called "Normal" and "mythic" raiding. LFR is for everyone else. If players abuse that - that's 100% on those players, not the game designers. I'm kind of tired of everything being blamed on Blizzard, when most of the blame is on the players - and you know which ones I'm talking about, we've all dealt with them.

    And if that offends you, you are one of those toxic players.

    As for point two - that's 50/50, Blizzard made LFR too easy, and players don't treat them seriously. I remember the LDR and LFg runs I did in Wod before I quit, with one or two or more jerks in raid gear who sat there and did nothing, and just said "LOLZ LFR" if called out on it.

    Blizzard's designs are one thing. But player attitudes are a bigger issue, IMHO, and thats from 11 years of putting up with endless amounts of garbage from people with shit attitudes towards the game and other players.

  14. #734
    9-11 was bad, but adding LFR was a tragedy.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by foofoocuddlypoopz View Post
    Mist had almost as many subscribers on launch. It could've been the shift in theme and promise of difficulty but looks like they just managed to get there initial players back. It also had better subscriber retention than warlords.

    It only shows potential not the actually quality of the expac. I agree what the expansion was compared to what it was marketed as was as different as night and day.

  16. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmack View Post
    Most enjoyed the first few months of every expansion released since cata but died down because of content drought. I would assume most would agree that content drought that started with ICC was the main factor in people leaving and not because of LFR.
    People continued to play through the icc drought and it's largely because end game was far more varied and offered a better reward structure. Once again, tier on the valor vendor. I had fucking 5 alts by the time cata came out all decked out in tier it was great. They moved away from this for a number of stupid painfully stupid reasons and their unwillingness or inability to walk it back has cost them.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2016-06-15 at 11:25 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #737
    The WoW community back in the days of Vanilla and BC had its chance to prove itself inclusive and accepting to people who wanted to see the content. Heck, even before that, during the days of EQ and the like.

    They blew it.

    Hence, the necessity of LFR.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    The WoW community back in the days of Vanilla and BC had its chance to prove itself inclusive and accepting to people who wanted to see the content. Heck, even before that, during the days of EQ and the like.

    They blew it.

    Hence, the necessity of LFR.
    This is huge. You win the internet today. /cheer

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Game grows when it had a very ridged and mostly linear progression system. The more it veered from that the fast subs dropped.

    My good friend you are the one who came to a pistol duel but forgot to bring bullets.
    A linear progression that mattered to only a small number of players. Blizzard have, I believed said in the past, that even during middle of TBC people were still levelling and did not reach max level.

    Since you are so adamant of your reasoning to the decline of subs. If, according to your own words, that during the period of such great growth, was then they had a very ridged and linear progression system, why change it? After all, according to your reasoning, this is major contributing factor to the growth and its change resulted in the decline, why change the system?

    Can be Blizzard be so blind that they could not see what you clearly can?

    Blizzard has been making changes to the whole raiding systems since end of Vanilla in various forms. 40m, 25m. 10m. Heroic. Normal. LFR. Why so many changes?

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    You are correct and yet there is many more like me tho. I can do NM+ raiding (Look at my NM kills on my paladin to see). But I have zero interest in HC and Mythic raiding. I don't play WoW to get a challenge, I play it to have fun and improve my character.

    Come legion good chance I won't do NM at all and stick to LFR and maybe mythic dungeons. I will grind my face off to finish my weapon and get the legendary's

    Legion IMO is looking great and I can't wait.
    Totally agree. I'm excited for Legion. I honestly enjoyed WoD, just not for an extended period of time because of how the end game was structured. Legion looks to keep all of the good parts of WoD (the parts I enjoyed anyway, YMMV obviously) and combine them with new good stuff and good stuff from past expansions. I'll reserve judgement until I get to experience it in it's entirety, but it's shaping up to possibly be my favorite expansion to date.

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