Reforging Pros and Cons

[A dot Ham]

Well I don't really have any cons. All I can say is that while understand the argument for removing it, I think the biggest reason it was a success and would be again, is class performance and balance.

This entire xpac I felt like my shaman was underperforming. Now to be fair he was not my main, and was in generic LFR gear until HFC.

But it wasn't until HFC that I finally started to close the gap between fellow DPSers.

Some classes have significant and specific secondary stat needs just so the spec can function as designed. Other classes ya secondary stats matter, but it doesn't drastically change performance.

Now one could make the argument that they just need to itemize/stat allocate better and it would fix the problem and I would be okay with that too. But something needs to happen because I hate feeling like I am being pulled along and that I could be helping my guild far more if I would just simply change classes.

It is entirely possible I am just a bad shaman... but you can only press so many buttons. I can't say that I think I am doing it all that much different than any other shaman out there.

[kary]

Not every item that drops is good for you.

[Sinndra]

i still see no need for such a useless concept. reforging should have never been integrated into wow in the first place. if players complain that stats dont help their class, then the devs should be more proactive in finding stats that DO work for that class.

they should not be giving gear with lesser stats and saying "we know this gear sucks for you, so here is a twerpy npc for you to change your stats at." it was an unnecessary extra step that the developers should have taken responsibility for way before the idea of reforging was introduced.

[kary]

i still see no need for such a useless concept. reforging should have never been integrated into wow in the first place. if players complain that stats dont help their class, then the devs should be more proactive in finding stats that DO work for that class.

they should not be giving gear with lesser stats and saying "we know this gear sucks for you, so here is a twerpy npc for you to change your stats at." it was an unnecessary extra step that the developers should have taken responsibility for way before the idea of reforging was introduced.

When reforging was introduced every boss dropped gear of the same itemlevel. People were just greedy.
I can see there being a sort of a case for reforging in HFC as the itemlevels vary, but still, no.

[Sinndra]

When reforging was introduced every boss dropped gear of the same itemlevel. People were just greedy.
I can see there being a sort of a case for reforging in HFC as the itemlevels vary, but still, no.

yah the ilvl variance should not have happened either. clearly if ilvl changes your stat preference, this is the fault of the devs not creating gear to suit your class, if they did their job correctly there should never be a need at any time for reforging.

[kary]

yah the ilvl variance should not have happened either. clearly if ilvl changes your stat preference, this is the fault of the devs not creating gear to suit your class, if they did their job correctly there should never be a need at any time for reforging.

The ilvl variance happened because people complained that blackhand weapons should be better than gear before blackhand. They had a point.

[Sinndra]

The ilvl variance happened because people complained that blackhand weapons should be better than gear before blackhand. They had a point.

i agree to their point, i still believe its the devs fault for not creating gear with stats that people wanted. it is not an issue of whether we have or dont have reforging.

reforging is nothing more than the lazy way of saying "we dont feel like creating decent gear for your class, you do it."

being able to enhance your gear to mesh with your playstyle better is an understandable concern, however it shouldnt be needed for the base stats that gear gives you. it should take the form of gear enhancements (gems/enchants) or something like that.

[kary]

i agree to their point, i still believe its the devs fault for not creating gear with stats that people wanted. it is not an issue of whether we have or dont have reforging.

reforging is nothing more than the lazy way of saying "we dont feel like creating decent gear for your class, you do it."

But there is gear with the stats for every class.

In BRF, for example, there are offpieces with every desired stat (mail and plate, I play those armor types so I'm familiar with them), same with HFC.

If you want your gear to be weighted towards haste, or crit, or mastery, or whatever, you gear for it. You don't just equip whatever drops and then whine that you can't reforge off stats.

I agree that you'd be stuck with a small amount of sub-optimal stats, but your primary and secondary stat are always well taken care of when people aren't greedy and use a tiny bit of forethought into selecting gear.

[Pull My Finger]

I'll put it this way: I don't really miss reforging, but it's not the fault of reforging itself, but in the way how WoW deals with stats inherently.

Stats in WoW are actually useless and completely uninteresting. They could just as well have gear in the game that simply says: 230 Shaman power. And that would be a good item for a Shaman, and then you would seek to replace it with an item that says 240 Shaman power.

In WoW, there is hardly any doubt about what the "right" stats for your class and spec are. It was only consequent when they made it so that stats that are uninteresting for your class now get greyed out, or that primary stats change when you respec. But it only made the uselessness of a stat system in this game more obvious.

Reforging can't be interesting in a system like that, because it degenerates to a chore. Take away some of the undesireable stat and reallocate the value to the "right" stat. Nothing remotely interesting about that. It's just something that needed to be manually done to optimize gear.

If you wanted a really interesting system revolving around stats, they would have to be handled more similar to the way for example Dark Souls does it. There are no "useless" stats. Every stat has certain effects and benefits, and anyone and everyone can benefit from them in some way. Your choice of focus determines your playstyle. Everything is viable in some way, and you need, and CAN, figure out a distribution that works for you.

If it was more like that, THEN imagine how cool, valuable and rewarding reforging could be.

[Sinndra]

I agree that you'd be stuck with a small amount of sub-optimal stats, but your primary and secondary stat are always well taken care of when people aren't greedy and use a tiny bit of forethought into selecting gear.

here is the problem the devs need to be better at solving. you shouldnt have sub~optimal stats. i like that they have begun work on this with gear swapping, and how it swaps some stats to better accommodate your other spec (and some gear being usable by multiple classes where the stat changes ie: str changing to agi and shared by str/agi users).

the devs need to continue this concept further so that gear you acquire has stats that are all good for your class, to the extent that reforging is a nasty dream that will never see the light.

again, ultimately the solution should never be "we created gear with stats that are sub~optimal for your class, go use this twerpy npc to fix it yourself, for a fee ofc."


also what PMF said above me.

[SL1200]

There were cons for reforging? I can't think of any. Of course that's a somewhat trollish statement, but I would like to see reforging return to the game.

[kary]

here is the problem the devs need to be better at solving. you shouldnt have sub~optimal stats. i like that they have begun work on this with gear swapping, and how it swaps some stats to better accommodate your other spec (and some gear being usable by multiple classes where the stat changes ie: str changing to agi and shared by str/agi users).

the devs need to continue this concept further so that gear you acquire has stats that are all good for your class, to the extent that reforging is a nasty dream that will never see the light.

again, ultimately the solution should never be "we created gear with stats that are sub~optimal for your class, go use this twerpy npc to fix it yourself, for a fee ofc."


also what PMF said above me.

You'd never, ever be able to have 100% crit/mastery, or whatever your "best" stats are.
But your gear could be crit/haste crit/mastery crit/multi and still focus on crit.
Reforging allowed people to take items, with none of the stats meant for them (i.e, items that aren't good for their class/spec) and put the stats they needed on them.

All stats are good for you fwiw. there's no stat that gives you 0 dps (apart from spirit/BA which you won't find if you're not a healer/tank)

What PMF said works conceptually. What would actually happen is that everyone would run it through an addon that would give you the most damage.

[The Oblivion]

id like it back. was fun to play around with and makes my char feel more optimized and less luck based.

[Freedom]

Pro: I can get rid of a stat I hate, and get one I want.

Con: with how much gear sharing there is between specs now, even more with BA/Multi removal and fine-tuning, you'd need to reforge your gear just to go Prot from Fury reforging, for example. I'd rather have another set in my bags and a sunk gold cost than a constant one.

Ultimately, with the removal of Dodge, Parry, Hit, Expertise, and now Multistrike and Bonus Armor in Legion, reforging would not serve as much of a purpose as it once did. Hit and Expertise were the real deal for reforging; beyond that, it was "get rid of the stat I hate".

[Sinndra]

You'd never, ever be able to have 100% crit/mastery, or whatever your "best" stats are.
But your gear could be crit/haste crit/mastery crit/multi and still focus on crit.

based on how gear was made for today. there has to be a way to give your class the stats it needs, if it gives stats you dont need, then it simply shouldnt give you that stat. it shouldnt give you stats that mean more for another class and only mean a tiny bit to your current class. thats bad design. and the devs need to do better.

Reforging allowed people to take items, with none of the stats meant for them (i.e, items that aren't good for their class/spec) and put the stats they needed on them.

if gear was created with stats that change as per your class/spec, so that all stats mattered then it would render reforging completely unnecessary. and thats my point, the devs took the easy way out by allowing reforging in the first place, rather than taking on the task of designing gear so that no stat was sub~optimal, which leads to PMF showing how stats in WoW as a system are pretty dumb.

[kary]

based on how gear was made for today. there has to be a way to give your class the stats it needs, if it gives stats you dont need, then it simply shouldnt give you that stat. it shouldnt give you stats that mean more for another class and only mean a tiny bit to your current class. thats bad design. and the devs need to do better.


if gear was created with stats that change as per your class/spec, so that all stats mattered then it would render reforging completely unnecessary. and thats my point, the devs took the easy way out by allowing reforging in the first place, rather than taking on the task of designing gear so that no stat was sub~optimal, which leads to PMF showing how stats in WoW as a system are pretty dumb.

You were never able to get perfect stat allocation on every item. Never.

[purebalance]

Well I don't really have any cons. All I can say is that while understand the argument for removing it, I think the biggest reason it was a success and would be again, is class performance and balance.

This entire xpac I felt like my shaman was underperforming. Now to be fair he was not my main, and was in generic LFR gear until HFC.

But it wasn't until HFC that I finally started to close the gap between fellow DPSers.

Some classes have significant and specific secondary stat needs just so the spec can function as designed. Other classes ya secondary stats matter, but it doesn't drastically change performance.

Now one could make the argument that they just need to itemize/stat allocate better and it would fix the problem and I would be okay with that too. But something needs to happen because I hate feeling like I am being pulled along and that I could be helping my guild far more if I would just simply change classes.

It is entirely possible I am just a bad shaman... but you can only press so many buttons. I can't say that I think I am doing it all that much different than any other shaman out there.

It's not about balance then since you're saying some classes excel with balanced stats while others excel with excess in a certain stat. So while reforging was around, the second group of classes/specs did better since they could dump their stats all into one. Now all that happened was who did better flipped, but not even that much since you can still find gear typically with more of the desired stat(making your 3 crafted items the stat you needed).

[Sinndra]

You were never able to get perfect stat allocation on every item. Never.

i know this, i never stated that you could. thats the problem. to which the solution should not be "go to this npc and change them yourself".

the devs should continue to put forth more effort than that to create gear with better stat allocations, instead of falling back to the pathetically lazy solution of reforging.

[Deleted]

Instead of reforging perhaps give some ability to select a "Specialization", Similar to the ones that give you 5% for stat specific stats but instead changes your stats so a percent of character sheet Crit/Mastery/Spirit/Bonus Armor becomes Haste. (If you chose Haste Specialization). Would be more derp-proof than reforge and would probably allow a bit of theorycrafting around certain pieces/sets of gear if you like that thing

[Dormie]

There were cons for reforging? I can't think of any. Of course that's a somewhat trollish statement, but I would like to see reforging return to the game.

The fact that there's no cons is the con. There needs to be pros and cons to features for them to be balanced.