Attunements are Back! - Very good change

[Daedius]

No. It is a cheap method to make people do something to prolong their subs. I remember grinding for the shoulders enchants. It was not difficult. It was not fun. The only effort required was to endure the process.

What I felt at end was not joy that I have achieve something amazing or special, but relief that I do not have to go through it again.

You can easily say the same about questing... or any other aspect of the game...

[Axphism]

No. It is a cheap method to make people do something to prolong their subs. I remember grinding for the shoulders enchants. It was not difficult. It was not fun. The only effort required was to endure the process.

What I felt at end was not joy that I have achieve something amazing or special, but relief that I do not have to go through it again.

I actually enjoyed it. You're right, it wasn't hard, but it was a fun barrier. Grouping up with friends to do it made it even more fun!

[oldgeezer]

bit ironic its people like you that have made wow cater to fucking casuals, this is an MMO its suppsed to be difficult and grindy, dnt like it go play another game

Speaking as a fucking casual, you should be profoundly grateful that people like us are still playing the game. Because if we weren't, you wouldn't be either.

I'll accept your thanks and apology later.

[Deleted]

this is NOT attument but then again its a Jay-Its-Cklick-Bait-Lock-thread.

[Kickbuttmario]

No offense yo but these are story attunments, more than anything. And if we're talking about attunements, might as well talk about PG silver rating for WoD heroics and flying achievement.

[Eleccybubb]

See this is the mentality of the "gimmie gimmie gimmie!" generation.

If its not dealt to you on a free silver platter with epics hanging off it, you consider it a "pain in the ass"

Doing content, to do other content.

A journey.

The whole idea of one must be worthy to enter these gates.... Or better yet, one must pass a set of challenges before they can enter these gates...

Even games like Zelda, Mario Brother, Final Fantasy had attunements... You couldn't kill bowser before completing levels before him. You couldn't kill Gannon before killing other bosses in other dungeons before him...

Why is this concept all of a sudden foreign when it comes to an MMO?

- - - Updated - - -



You see? Even you thought the attunement was fun / pretty cool when you first did it. Make a similar attunement process account wide, and we have a winning formula.

There is a difference between a gate being fun and a gate being tedious. For a 10 man raid it felt tedious. And comparing a platformer where the whole design is linear is the most stupid thing I've ever heard. Also I said it was a pain in the ass because it was for a 10 man introductory raid and if I remember rightly Gruul and Magtheridon did not have that. If the attunement is for something big and is actually fun fair enough.

[Lucetia]

And what exactly is wrong with giving players a sense of accomplishment and in turn REWARDING players for said accomplishments in the form of content?

Did I say there was anything wrong with giving players a sense of accomplishment? No. What I said is attunements doesn't do any of this. You aren't rewarded anything. You get an unlock to run more content and that's it. It's like saying if you buy an expansion you are rewarded with more content.

Do you see players going around saying "I did X and you haven't so I get to go to Y, haha!?" That is a very childish view if you believe that.

So who's the one taking it literally now? The point was that quote is basically expressed ingame in various forms. For instance, one of the most recent was "Doing X raid, must have flying" or "Doing Y, no groundies allowed" along with "Doing normal/heroic Z raid, must have "Ahead of the Curve!". So yes, while it might seem childish it can AND does happen in game whether you or anyone wants to admit it.

Players who completed the attunements in TBC just started to do the content associated with completing those attunements.

People did the content associated with it because it was required. How many people do you think enjoyed grinding rep to get a key to go to a Heroic dungeon? I can guarantee you just about anything the number is small. Why did people do it though? They wanted badges, they wanted the gear and some were required to do more attunements.

Do you think people enjoyed running Karazhan, Gruuls or Mag's when they had more than enough gear to go and do SSC or TK? Vast majority didn't. Why did they do it? Because it was a means to an end. They sure didn't do it to go "I feel accomplished I did that". I know by the time most got to their alts they were like "seriously, this is getting old". Guilds would get frustrated if a tank/healer couldn't make it to a raid and they had to find a replacement. Only to find out said replacement didn't have attunement.

I think its just your flawed perception that people used their accomplishments of overcoming attunements as a basis for belittling other players.

Is my perception perfect? No, it isn't. Difference is I can see past my own thoughts and opinions and see what has happened in the past countless times and know it will repeat itself. Or are you telling me, with a straightface, history will change itself? In a society such as the one in this game if someone can hold something over another person's head on why they can't get in or do something they will.

Better question yet: Why do you think its better game design to get rid of game elements that give players a sense of accomplishment?

I know it's a popular thing to do, but can we at least stop for a few minutes on taking things out of context? I have never once said it's a good idea to remove game elements that give players a sense of accomplishment. I said it needs to be in a way that not only gives them a sense of accomplishment, but also rewards them in a meaningful way that attributes to the next step of the process. Opening up a dungeon isn't giving rewards in a meaningful way. Something like Onyxia's attunement was as you could use that piece of gear to help better prepare yourself for Onyxia and Nefarion.

Even if its not the actual dungeon or raid itself? Doing a quest chain, retreiving a relic in another dungeon, killing a raid boss as part of the gateway to enter the next level of content (hence unlocking said content), is content itself. You are participating in PvE activities to do more PvE activities. Where is the issue?

Do quest chains further unlocks a story which in turn furthers gameplay a lot of areas for those interested in that type of thing. Is it required? No, you won't need to know lore to enjoy the game. Is it skippable? Yes. The only time it isn't is when it actually sets up the next thing. Stuff like this is like the Isle of Thunder scenarios. You did a quest line that actually had an impact on the environment around you, but at the same time you didn't have to do it in order to do Throne of Thunder.

Retrieving a relic from a dungeon? Do you really feel accomplished by collecting boss #17217 head's and turning it in? Or those 20 tusks from boars in the instance? That is the same type of scenario of a relic. Something that works better is retrieving a specific item from a dungeon that leads to more of a quest chain. It could be compared to a recent example of Light's Heart (or fragment) that is in Legion where it opens up the next set of events.

Killing a raid boss to unlock next level of content? I'm not sure which way you are referring to, but I'll address both. If you mean defeating a boss to unlock the next boss it's done all the time. It's annoying, but there, and even then I believe all should be available except for final (maybe final 2-3). For instance Icecrown Citadel had first 4 bosses you had to do in order to get to the next set which you could choose your route. That would be beating a boss to unlock next level. Now if you are referring to completing a boss kill in Raid A then you unlock Raid B then we've discussed this. This was TBC raid attunements and was absolutely atrocious for guilds/raids. You had to ensure everyone had it completed or you had to go back (extremely terrible for new players / alts). Sure it might've felt nice to unlock it and go "Yay, next raid", but the massive reality is for those who had to actively deal with it wanted to shoot the system in the foot.

Participating in PvE activities to do more PvE activities works in a variety of ways. Such as leveling to increase power to do more content. Same with gear. Going and getting something simple and giving it to a guy isn't really doing PvE as it is busy work. Think of it this way, if I said you can't kill the Lich King until you go retrieve me this crystal fragment from here, go slay this boss, grab that item, slay this many and then you will be allowed to enter Icecrown Citadel to slay him. Was all that busy work beforehand needed? No. Did it make you feel accomplished? Some might say yes, but I would be a good chunk would say no. Did you get rewarded? No. You just get to go slay something upteen times for a chance at something. That isn't rewarding. Rewarding would be like something you get at the end of the BT attunement. Where you get a necklace with Shadow Resistance (not necessarily and you can use a different necklace), but you get a teleport to that dungeon to save time in the future. Rewards can come in many forms though, but the reward should reflect the work you put in and help further your goal and prepare you for the task ahead. Doing the menial tasks before hand doesn't prepare you at all for the road ahead.

This chart here shows why it wasn't fun, compelling, rewarding or sense of accomplishment. It displays the nightmares that attunements give.

[Eleccybubb]

No offense yo but these are story attunments, more than anything. And if we're talking about attunements, might as well talk about PG silver rating for WoD heroics and flying achievement.

This. If the story is decent enough then fair enough. If it's just gated for the sake of gating and the story is crap then what is the point? Attunements should be fun. PG wasn't fun because Silver was piss easy and Flying unlock was garbage but then again optional.

[Wingspan]

I am not sure what Bliz is thinking here.

Creating exclusive content (which making it non-LFG will do) is just not a good idea because it limits the number of people in the content, thus causing a development cost versus usage problem... the same one that brought about multi-mode raids and eventually LFD/LFR.

And merely making the content exclusive will not be enough of course... they will need to seed the dungeon with special loot for people to make any effort to go back. At that point, what you effectively have is a 5-man Vanilla Raid.


So I can see this going two ways...

It could be a sneaky testing ground for reducing Raid sizes over the course of another expansion or two (under the guise of bringing back exclusive content). Although I think this is unlikely.

Or more likely, it will probably lead to a situation where you need to do a Loremaster-like achievement in order to do any dungeons (down the line... not this expansion). They could sneak this in by starting with exclusive dungeons (which would get a TON of support by more hardcore dungeon runners) and then backing off on them and making them queuable in lesser modes. That would bring back full-on quest-driven attunements, but it would make it look like they were wanted by those running the dungeons.


Or Bliz just could be plain stupid... you can never tell these days.

[Daedius]

I am not sure what Bliz is thinking here.

Creating exclusive content (which making it non-LFG will do) is just not a good idea because it limits the number of people in the content, thus causing a development cost versus usage problem... the same one that brought about multi-mode raids and eventually LFD/LFR.

And merely making the content exclusive will not be enough of course... they will need to seed the dungeon with special loot for people to make any effort to go back. At that point, what you effectively have is a 5-man Vanilla Raid.


So I can see this going two ways...

It could be a sneaky testing ground for reducing Raid sizes over the course of another expansion or two (under the guise of bringing back exclusive content).

Or more likely, it will probably lead to a situation where you need to do a Loremaster-like achievement in order to do any dungeons (down the line... not this expansion). They could sneak this in by starting with exclusive dungeons and then backing off on them and making them queuable.


Or Bliz just could be plain stupid... you can never tell these days.

There's nothing exclusive about it...

[Wingspan]

There's nothing exclusive about it...

LFR was largely introduced because there was a need to justify the expense of the content. Having very few people in Raids did not justify what was being spent.

Regardless of if you consider it exclusive, this will incur the exact same problem if you allow no LFD-type access. This is more what I am getting at than anything else.


I would like to think that Bliz is not stupid and realizes this. Assuming they do, then there is simply something else at work here. Right now, I am leaning towards my Loremaster-to-enter-Dungeons theory as a long-term goal, largely because they seem to be making a HUGE push at putting people in the questing world content.

But they could never just straight-up require that without an insurrection... they need to get the more hardcore dungeon runners on board with it, so throwing out a few non-LFD Mythics might be the answer. Then after people have adjusted to the attunements, they can pop LFD access back in and call it a win.

[Deleted]

Speaking as a fucking casual, you should be profoundly grateful that people like us are still playing the game. Because if we weren't, you wouldn't be either.

I'll accept your thanks and apology later.

oh look an apple fan getting angry, itwas hardcore players that started this game off not yu filthy casuals so your not gonna get an apology

[Jerichofr]

As long as there's no main story elements in the two dungeons, and the rewards for it aren't exclusive to those two dungeons and/or aren't BiS... I have no issues with it.

And to be honest, they're just unlocked by questing, and Mythic dungeons have never been queue-able, so it really isn't that big a deal.

[Eleccybubb]

oh look an apple fan getting angry, itwas hardcore players that started this game off not yu filthy casuals so your not gonna get an apology

Uhm no it wasn't. WoW was never catered to the hardcore audience so know what you are talking about before posting. If anything it was the casual and accessible alternative to stuff like DaoC and Everquest.

[Wingspan]

Actually it was anything but hardcore people that started the game off. A lot of the initial base was EQ refugees looking for something less demanding, although I would not say they made up most of the strating playerbase or anything.

[manypillars]

A meh change. Since you are intended to only play one spec of one character in Leg it's meh at best. You personally won't have to repeat it since the devs don't want you playing multiple characters, but guilds will now be back in the situation of pulling new talent and then having to run them through attunements, poach attuned players from other guilds, or failing either of those break up.

[Wingspan]

As long as there's no main story elements in the two dungeons, and the rewards for it aren't exclusive to those two dungeons and/or aren't BiS... I have no issues with it.

And to be honest, they're just unlocked by questing, and Mythic dungeons have never been queue-able, so it really isn't that big a deal.

I think the problem there is that they will NEED to seed the dungeons with exclusive or BIS rewards or else there will be very little inspiration to bother with them.

[stomination]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745136057

(downvotes, combating one of the few special little guys who cried over this)

I checked on this guy. He is indeed posting on an alt but his main that I linked in the blizzard forums has also not done a mythic dungeon.

[Wingspan]

I checked on this guy. He is indeed posting on an alt but his main that I linked in the blizzard forums has also not done a mythic dungeon.

That kind of makes it more likely that he means what he says about leaving. (Hard to say though, since it is hard to break the addiction for those who have invested a lot of time.)

[MoanaLisa]

This actually belongs in the Legion forum where there is already a thread on the topic:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ns-a-good-idea

Please post there and thanks.