Mythic only dungeons a good idea?

[Tharkkun]

Instead of just mythic, why not offer normal and heroic modes too?

We just build groups for them in /2 and /General like we did in TBC and early WoTLK.

Personally I am not too keen on this idea of Mythic Dungeons anyway, I'd much rather have Heroics like they were back in TBC.

Because you won't have access to the dungeon until you've completed the quest line that has rewarded you with gear much better than normal/heroic.

[Jaylock]

Using the official forums as a guide or a measure is proven to mean nothing. It's funny how when it supports someone's arguments, it's suddenly proof of value, but when it doesn't match personal arguments it's a vocal minority. Gimme a break Jaylock, even you're better than this.

I'd say the official forums gives a sense of a pulse of how the community feels, especially since its the most rabid fans that actually take time to go to an official discussion forum to express their gratitude for this change.

No flying issue is mixed at best..

This? This issue is universally wanted / accepted by the majority of the community. Don't shoot down the facts @SirCowdog

[SirCowdog]

I'd say the official forums gives a sense of a pulse of how the community feels, especially since its the most rabid fans that actually take time to go to an official discussion forum to express their gratitude for this change.

No flying issue is mixed at best..

This? This issue is universally wanted / accepted by the majority of the community. Don't shoot down the facts @SirCowdog

The facts, as shown by disucssions EXACTLY LIKE THIS ONE show that the idea of attunements and mythic only dungeons is not as widely accepted as people would have us believe. Just saying it does doesn't make it true. Think about it....who are the people most likely to post and visit the forums? The dedicated and higher end fans. The EXACT people who are most likely to want content like this. OF COURSE they're going to support it!

But catering only to the higher end players has been shown again and again to fail. Entire games have failed because of it. High-end players already have Mythic+, Challenge Modes, and raiding above normal to occupy them for all group sizes. Having people work to unlock Mythic difficulty is fine. But making it so there's ONLY mythic difficulty is willfully excluding players. Why do you think LFR and normal modes exist for raiding? Why do you think there's normal and heroic dungeon modes?

I'm not against having progression and unlocks in the game. I AM against wasting dev time on content that will only be played by a small percentage of it.

[Jaylock]

The facts, as shown by disucssions EXACTLY LIKE THIS ONE show that the idea of attunements and mythic only dungeons is not as widely accepted as people would have us believe. Just saying it does doesn't make it true. Think about it....who are the people most likely to post and visit the forums? The dedicated and higher end fans. The EXACT people who are most likely to want content like this. OF COURSE they're going to support it!

But catering only to the higher end players has been shown again and again to fail. Entire games have failed because of it. High-end players already have Mythic+, Challenge Modes, and raiding above normal to occupy them for all group sizes. Having people work to unlock Mythic difficulty is fine. But making it so there's ONLY mythic difficulty is willfully excluding players. Why do you think LFR and normal modes exist for raiding? Why do you think there's normal and heroic dungeon modes?

I'm not against having progression and unlocks in the game. I AM against wasting dev time on content that will only be played by a small percentage of it.

Willfully excluding players? How so? Just because a player cant click a button to get auto transported and auto grouped up with other random players doing the same thing?

How is that "willfully excluding players?" I would say its in fact the opposite. Its encouraging players to participate in something that they might not otherwise try out given the current structure. Aka, its encouraging players to be *GASP* social in a gamed designed for players to be social.. aka an MMO.

If players don't want to be social, there are 8 other dungeons and LFR and tons of world content for them to be anti social in.

Its almost as if Blizzard is giving players with differing playstyles content tailored to those playstyles. Who woulda thought!?

[Velerios]

@SirCowdog

Please don't forget: 1.) you are talking with Jaylock, 2.) the lore behind these dungeons is now no longer awailable to the public, rather than that they cut content to make the special snowflakes happy. We saw how good it was in WoD to please the Snowflakes by making LFR completely useless and only focus on raid and appearance. Warlords of Draenor was a really successfull expansion with this new features for them.

Make them mythic is simply a stupid motive, and there's no need to make them mythic only. Even if there was also a heroic version; it would not cut content for the mythic-players since MYTHIC WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE. And not everyone goes into an instance just for the loot.

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Because you won't have access to the dungeon until you've completed the quest line that has rewarded you with gear much better than normal/heroic.

Like said before: i don't run dungeons just for the loot, so even if the loot is lower, i would run lfd for it; at least to see it.

[dontknowdoya]

I think this is a bad idea and will block people who are uninterested in Mythic dungeons from seeing the content of the two dungeons in question.

[Arcangel14]

I could understand them being heroic only, but not sure how I feel about Mythic only.

Sure, it won't be an issue for me, but I know a large group of people won't be able to do it until a bit into the expansion.

[stomination]

No, this is a dumb change. You are never going to get all dungeons taken off a queue and with that in mind, it's nonsensical to make 2 of the 10 dungeons Mythic-only, when you can simply make them Mythic as well as Heroic and Normal.

Maybe if Pristine Servers were a thing right now, I'd support the change. Only that way you couldn't piss off the majority of the playerbase which "have lives".

You basically just do a questline in a zone to be able to do these dungeons that require only 20 items level higher than what is required for the heroic dungeons.

You can have a life and still be able to do this.

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Instead of just mythic, why not offer normal and heroic modes too?

We just build groups for them in /2 and /General like we did in TBC and early WoTLK.

Personally I am not too keen on this idea of Mythic Dungeons anyway, I'd much rather have Heroics like they were back in TBC.

They plan to make those dungeons to continually be something players can get rewards from throughout the expansion. I'm guessing it will scale with the patches w they mentioned adding items in it overtime.

[Wondercrab]

In concept I think it's fine if it only applies to a small amount of content. Their reasoning for doing it with the Suramar dungeons seems silly, though, considering they fully intended for them to have heroic modes right from the start, and seem to be doing this purely so that they don't feel "weird" or out of place given the unlocking process.

If the reasoning had been "we want to try and promote premade groups a little more by making some content exclusive to them", then I'd find it more understandable.

[tru]

Who cares? If umadbro getgud enough to form a group to run it. If you don't have time for organized raids...and cannot even organize a 5man...just stop ruining it for the rest of us. Its not that big of a deal. With all this world content stuff going on now IMHO they should GATE more things behind making you go out and do shit in the zones they have crafted for YOU. The gree eye button warriors just need to go away.

[stomination]

The facts, as shown by disucssions EXACTLY LIKE THIS ONE show that the idea of attunements and mythic only dungeons is not as widely accepted as people would have us believe. Just saying it does doesn't make it true. Think about it....who are the people most likely to post and visit the forums? The dedicated and higher end fans. The EXACT people who are most likely to want content like this. OF COURSE they're going to support it!

But catering only to the higher end players has been shown again and again to fail. Entire games have failed because of it. High-end players already have Mythic+, Challenge Modes, and raiding above normal to occupy them for all group sizes. Having people work to unlock Mythic difficulty is fine. But making it so there's ONLY mythic difficulty is willfully excluding players. Why do you think LFR and normal modes exist for raiding? Why do you think there's normal and heroic dungeon modes?

I'm not against having progression and unlocks in the game. I AM against wasting dev time on content that will only be played by a small percentage of it.

Mythic dungeons are not catered to the higher end players. We tend to already outgear it and really only did them for those trinkets and valor.

[Wingspan]

LFR was largely introduced because there was a need to justify the expense of the content. Having very few people in Raids did not justify what was being spent.

As it stands now, this will incur the exact same problem if you allow no LFD-type access.


I would like to think that Bliz is not stupid and realizes this. Assuming they do, then there is probably something else at work here. Right now, I am leaning towards a Loremaster-to-enter-Dungeons theory as a long-term goal, largely because they seem to be making a HUGE push at putting people in the questing world content.

But they could never just straight-up require that without an insurrection by the more hardcore dungeoneers, so they need to get them on board with it. Throwing out a few non-LFD Mythics might be the answer. Then after people have adjusted to the new attunements, they can pop LFD access back in (for all dungeons) and call it a win.


TLDR: This all could be a nice smoke and mirrors game to slowly put in a Loremaster-type requirement on instanced play.

[Deleted]

You basically just do a questline in a zone to be able to do these dungeons that require only 20 items level higher than what is required for the heroic dungeons.

You can have a life and still be able to do this.

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They plan to make those dungeons to continually be something players can get rewards from throughout the expansion. I'm guessing it will scale with the patches w they mentioned adding items in it overtime.

Things that take a bit of effort outside of pressing a button seem to these days get slapped with "no life" label. It's laughable.

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I am happy for this change, if for nothing else but to show how many people actually complain over nothing. It's not mythic+ it is simply mythic. The kind you've already had in WoD. Saying that doing those requires you to be a no lifer just shows how little effort you not only put into the game, but to using your brain as well.

[stomination]

Except if there were a heroic version in LFD the Mythic version for you would still have existed so there's nothing to ruin for you. People like YOU are the ones cheering content being removed from other people while you still get what you would have gotten anyway. You are ruining it for others, you've lost nothing.

Gawd, I'm gonna love the tears of people being "forced" to do LFR for tier

Its actually what they plan on doing with those dungeons. It seems they want the dungoens in question to be something you can do all expansion and be able to get upgrades during that time.

So the dungeons are going to end up scaling for each patch it sounds like.

[zaino]

Except if there were a heroic version in LFD the Mythic version for you would still have existed so there's nothing to ruin for you. People like YOU are the ones cheering content being removed from other people while you still get what you would have gotten anyway. You are ruining it for others, you've lost nothing.

Gawd, I'm gonna love the tears of people being "forced" to do LFR for tier

there should be parts of the game not accessible by lfg, fuck me right?

instant gratification era..... sigh

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

there should be parts of the game not accessible by lfg, fuck me right?

instant gratification era..... sigh

Don't you guys get extra bosses like Ra-den in Mist? I think gating dungeon is a stupid idea. Having exclusive raid bosses that aren't mandatory for the story to progress is fine. Making raid mounts that are only available for clearing mythic during the current expansion is fine. Gating a dungeon behind this sounds stupid especially when content was an issue last expansion.

I really wish they would just create special bosses that are only accessible in higher difficulties and even give them mounts like in burning crusade.

[Lucetia]

Since the other thread got locked, figured I'd post my response here from the other thread.

And what exactly is wrong with giving players a sense of accomplishment and in turn REWARDING players for said accomplishments in the form of content?

Did I say there was anything wrong with giving players a sense of accomplishment? No. What I said is attunements doesn't do any of this. You aren't rewarded anything. You get an unlock to run more content and that's it. It's like saying if you buy an expansion you are rewarded with more content.

Do you see players going around saying "I did X and you haven't so I get to go to Y, haha!?" That is a very childish view if you believe that.

So who's the one taking it literally now? The point was that quote is basically expressed ingame in various forms. For instance, one of the most recent was "Doing X raid, must have flying" or "Doing Y, no groundies allowed" along with "Doing normal/heroic Z raid, must have "Ahead of the Curve!". So yes, while it might seem childish it can AND does happen in game whether you or anyone wants to admit it.

Players who completed the attunements in TBC just started to do the content associated with completing those attunements.

People did the content associated with it because it was required. How many people do you think enjoyed grinding rep to get a key to go to a Heroic dungeon? I can guarantee you just about anything the number is small. Why did people do it though? They wanted badges, they wanted the gear and some were required to do more attunements.

Do you think people enjoyed running Karazhan, Gruuls or Mag's when they had more than enough gear to go and do SSC or TK? Vast majority didn't. Why did they do it? Because it was a means to an end. They sure didn't do it to go "I feel accomplished I did that". I know by the time most got to their alts they were like "seriously, this is getting old". Guilds would get frustrated if a tank/healer couldn't make it to a raid and they had to find a replacement. Only to find out said replacement didn't have attunement.

I think its just your flawed perception that people used their accomplishments of overcoming attunements as a basis for belittling other players.

Is my perception perfect? No, it isn't. Difference is I can see past my own thoughts and opinions and see what has happened in the past countless times and know it will repeat itself. Or are you telling me, with a straightface, history will change itself? In a society such as the one in this game if someone can hold something over another person's head on why they can't get in or do something they will.

Better question yet: Why do you think its better game design to get rid of game elements that give players a sense of accomplishment?

I know it's a popular thing to do, but can we at least stop for a few minutes on taking things out of context? I have never once said it's a good idea to remove game elements that give players a sense of accomplishment. I said it needs to be in a way that not only gives them a sense of accomplishment, but also rewards them in a meaningful way that attributes to the next step of the process. Opening up a dungeon isn't giving rewards in a meaningful way. Something like Onyxia's attunement was as you could use that piece of gear to help better prepare yourself for Onyxia and Nefarion.

Even if its not the actual dungeon or raid itself? Doing a quest chain, retreiving a relic in another dungeon, killing a raid boss as part of the gateway to enter the next level of content (hence unlocking said content), is content itself. You are participating in PvE activities to do more PvE activities. Where is the issue?

Do quest chains further unlocks a story which in turn furthers gameplay a lot of areas for those interested in that type of thing. Is it required? No, you won't need to know lore to enjoy the game. Is it skippable? Yes. The only time it isn't is when it actually sets up the next thing. Stuff like this is like the Isle of Thunder scenarios. You did a quest line that actually had an impact on the environment around you, but at the same time you didn't have to do it in order to do Throne of Thunder.

Retrieving a relic from a dungeon? Do you really feel accomplished by collecting boss #17217 head's and turning it in? Or those 20 tusks from boars in the instance? That is the same type of scenario of a relic. Something that works better is retrieving a specific item from a dungeon that leads to more of a quest chain. It could be compared to a recent example of Light's Heart (or fragment) that is in Legion where it opens up the next set of events.

Killing a raid boss to unlock next level of content? I'm not sure which way you are referring to, but I'll address both. If you mean defeating a boss to unlock the next boss it's done all the time. It's annoying, but there, and even then I believe all should be available except for final (maybe final 2-3). For instance Icecrown Citadel had first 4 bosses you had to do in order to get to the next set which you could choose your route. That would be beating a boss to unlock next level. Now if you are referring to completing a boss kill in Raid A then you unlock Raid B then we've discussed this. This was TBC raid attunements and was absolutely atrocious for guilds/raids. You had to ensure everyone had it completed or you had to go back (extremely terrible for new players / alts). Sure it might've felt nice to unlock it and go "Yay, next raid", but the massive reality is for those who had to actively deal with it wanted to shoot the system in the foot.

Participating in PvE activities to do more PvE activities works in a variety of ways. Such as leveling to increase power to do more content. Same with gear. Going and getting something simple and giving it to a guy isn't really doing PvE as it is busy work. Think of it this way, if I said you can't kill the Lich King until you go retrieve me this crystal fragment from here, go slay this boss, grab that item, slay this many and then you will be allowed to enter Icecrown Citadel to slay him. Was all that busy work beforehand needed? No. Did it make you feel accomplished? Some might say yes, but I would be a good chunk would say no. Did you get rewarded? No. You just get to go slay something upteen times for a chance at something. That isn't rewarding. Rewarding would be like something you get at the end of the BT attunement. Where you get a necklace with Shadow Resistance (not necessarily and you can use a different necklace), but you get a teleport to that dungeon to save time in the future. Rewards can come in many forms though, but the reward should reflect the work you put in and help further your goal and prepare you for the task ahead. Doing the menial tasks before hand doesn't prepare you at all for the road ahead.

This chart here shows why it wasn't fun, compelling, rewarding or sense of accomplishment. It displays the nightmares that attunements give.

[primalmatter]

Don't you guys get extra bosses like Ra-den in Mist? I think gating dungeon is a stupid idea. Having exclusive raid bosses that aren't mandatory for the story to progress is fine. Making raid mounts that are only available for clearing mythic during the current expansion is fine. Gating a dungeon behind this sounds stupid especially when content was an issue last expansion.

I really wish they would just create special bosses that are only accessible in higher difficulties and even give them mounts like in burning crusade.

It isn't the same bar...

TBC kind of did it better I admit I would rather see rep be tied to this then a quest line but for how and why it functions it does a decent job of it.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

It isn't the same bar...

TBC kind of did it better I admit I would rather see rep be tied to this then a quest line but for how and why it functions it does a decent job of it.

I don't might rep grinds but I would prefer running all of the older dungeons on heroic versus rep grinds because world content is kind of mindless sometimes. I think gating entire dungeon is dumb but gating bosses or rewards is better but this shit might work out. Gonna have to wait and see.

[stomination]

Don't you guys get extra bosses like Ra-den in Mist? I think gating dungeon is a stupid idea. Having exclusive raid bosses that aren't mandatory for the story to progress is fine. Making raid mounts that are only available for clearing mythic during the current expansion is fine. Gating a dungeon behind this sounds stupid especially when content was an issue last expansion.

I really wish they would just create special bosses that are only accessible in higher difficulties and even give them mounts like in burning crusade.

Raden was a bugged boss.

Gating something by making you do content doesn't seem stupid after an expansion where you didn't have to do anything but wait till a que popped or a raid invite.

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I don't might rep grinds but I would prefer running all of the older dungeons on heroic versus rep grinds because world content is kind of mindless sometimes. I think gating entire dungeon is dumb but gating bosses or rewards is better but this shit might work out. Gonna have to wait and see.

Pretty much...buts its not even a real gate. All you have to do is leisurely quest in the zone.

Its nothing like what gating use to be.