[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Taeldorian]

whats the general consensus on holy paladins? is the whole melee healer working out? haven't had a hpal in any of the dungeons ive done in beta so far

We aren't a melee healer anymore. We can choose (lightbringer talent) to stand in melee or ranged. We have a talent called crusaders might that allows us to use crusader strike to lower the CD of holy shock (might be something else too I haven't played with it in a while) so you can utilize your melee abilities if you stand in melee. That's a choice you can make though, if you prefer not doing that taking bestow faith is the other route to go.

Just check out some YouTube videos or watch a holy paladin legion beta stream. Make sure the YouTube videos are 1-3 weeks old and nothing more or it'll be outdated. We have plenty of abilities to utilize in dungeons and raids. We can choose to stand in melee or ranged, etc.

Only thing I'd love changed is the auras. Make them useful in raids. Mercy is decent in dungeons but they should be cool downs like divine hymn and tranquility. Another thing I put in the feedback thread is to make aura mastery do something since its baseline. It amplifies our aura abilities which is great but it's the only baseline skill that doesn't perform without auras. Those are the only things I'd love fixed, but overall the spec is great. Fun is subjective but I find it fun.

As for healers, I've seen plenty of holy Paladins when watching streams, I've also seen a lot of Resto Druids and holy priests. I play holy paladin in dungeons so obviously the only healer I see is that one when I'm playing.

[mcbubble]

-snip- It is called the Hurricane Bottle.

Here's a link to the Hurricane Bottle trinket:
http://legion.wowhead.com/item=13737...ricane&bonus=0

[DanThePaladin]

Just booted up PTR. Anyone got the most efficient way to spec?

[Maxvs]

This is what i've been using for mythics+3(done like 6)
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[Taeldorian]

Just booted up PTR. Anyone got the most efficient way to spec?

Well dungeons aren't available as far as I know on PTR but the perfect build for me was: lights hammer (for aoe heavy fights) and bestow faith for big tank damage, un breakable spirit when I don't need the movement from DS, aura of mercy for extra heals/Devo aura for big party damage, holy avenger (stacks up nicely with AW), sanctified wrath and beacon of the lightbringer so I can sit in range and be affective in both.

So:
1. Bestow faith for ST damage/lights hammer for aoe
2. Unbreakable spirit for fights with little to no movement
3. Aura of mercy for extra heals if needed, Devo aura for big group damage
4. Holy avenger
5. Sanctified wrath
6. Beacon of the light bringer


I'm not sure if this is optimal considering I'm not a theory crafter but it worked wonders for me when I was healing mythics.

Overall, I really love the spec so far. The auras need a bit of tuning for sure (a bit underpowered atm) and we could use more mobility. Even with that though, I absolutely love the instant heals we have, it really helps. I love the choice of healing in melee or ranged (BotLB) feels great. I'm content with the mastery since its been pretty flexible with talents and such.

[siccora]

at first i was not happy with holy paladin at all. now i am loving it. i love my healing output and i love my dmg output. you can really help your dps with some packs. atm i run with lightbringer too, because i dont feel the need for virtue.
so i run
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[Spazzix]

at first i was not happy with holy paladin at all. now i am loving it. i love my healing output and i love my dmg output.

Is this relative to other healers you've tested or just a general feeling of doing well in the group?

Really struggling to try and find a way to enjoy holy paladin more than other healers; if you were in a similar place I'm curious to know if there were some specific things that changed your mind. I'd love to keep it as the main, so I'm hoping to find those cool things that maybe I've been too stubborn to really give a fair shot to.

[siccora]

Is this relative to other healers you've tested or just a general feeling of doing well in the group?

Really struggling to try and find a way to enjoy holy paladin more than other healers; if you were in a similar place I'm curious to know if there were some specific things that changed your mind. I'd love to keep it as the main, so I'm hoping to find those cool things that maybe I've been too stubborn to really give a fair shot to.

i was/am in the same boat as you mate. i thought of rerolling to a monk or go dd as fotm DH/enhancer/ele…whatever. but why stay paladin and why stay heal? first of all i think i am a good healer, so rerolling to a DD would maybe hurt the progress in our guild and the roster itself. if you are good at something: keep getting better.
there will be mythic + dungeons and i want to run with a nice steady guildgroup. in those dungeons a good healer will be mandatory (i hope)

the other thing is, that i was feeling the new monk. ton of new heals, the mobility is insane, raid and tank CDs. i really like the talents for monk. i feel that there is really an option of tweaking YOUR gameplay with those talents.
but on the other hand: paladin will be a strong tank heal. paladin got some good damage (didn't compare that to other healers). you CAN talent those dmg abilities to heal (but i don't to that). paladins immunity is what i always liked and used it a lot to save some players. i like the design of the artifact. the big hammer looks just plain cool. our guild will run 2 druids, 1 shaman, me and a priest. so for me going pala is a smarter solution. it was like 50-50 monk or pala but the more i play paladin the more i like it.
i like that i don't have any holy powers anymore.
i like that i have a new mastery.
i like that i can good dmg.
i like that i have a nice artifact.
i like that i can immune myself.
i like that i have the color pink.

[Unir]

I really hate our lack of mobility, and from a design standpoint I think our mastery is dumb, and the continued inclusion of the stupid "martyr" abilities is also dumb - have been considering shaman or monk. Shaman is at least somewhat reactive in the same sense that paladins are, and there are a multitude of cooldowns to play with. Monk I really like, and the access to cleave healing is similar to the beacon style of healing, plus the mobility is insane.

Shaman downside: role shift is from tank/raid support to raid/tank support. Also, taurens and trolls are ugly af, and I can't even think about looking at a panda for countless hours without having a Clockwork Orange style flashback to Lorewalker Cho and wanting to punch the screen. Blood elf and Forsaken = master races.

Monk downside: definite shift in mechanics and application of healing, also role shift away from tank support. Upside: Can be blood elf or forsaken.

I'm a good healer, so I believe I could do any of those once I practice and get used to the new class if I do it, but I remain torn at this point.

I also really like holy priest on beta, but we already will have one or maybe even two - and we try to keep our comp with a variety of main healers and not too much overlap.

[EzG]

I really hate our lack of mobility, and from a design standpoint I think our mastery is dumb, and the continued inclusion of the stupid "martyr" abilities is also dumb - have been considering shaman or monk. Shaman is at least somewhat reactive in the same sense that paladins are, and there are a multitude of cooldowns to play with. Monk I really like, and the access to cleave healing is similar to the beacon style of healing, plus the mobility is insane.

Shaman downside: role shift is from tank/raid support to raid/tank support. Also, taurens and trolls are ugly af, and I can't even think about looking at a panda for countless hours without having a Clockwork Orange style flashback to Lorewalker Cho and wanting to punch the screen. Blood elf and Forsaken = master races.

Monk downside: definite shift in mechanics and application of healing, also role shift away from tank support. Upside: Can be blood elf or forsaken.

I'm a good healer, so I believe I could do any of those once I practice and get used to the new class if I do it, but I remain torn at this point.

I also really like holy priest on beta, but we already will have one or maybe even two - and we try to keep our comp with a variety of main healers and not too much overlap.

I don't mind the mastery and have never really thought of our class as a "mobile" one even with current (live) talents. Although those two ideas wouldn't make or break it for me as they aren't all that important. As for martyr I think it can be ignored completely, and while while something better could be in its place, there has always been a talent you wouldn't really ever spec into.

Although for an alt I found shaman's really fun with druids after that. The overall play style is a good enough change for an alt to play every once in awhile.

[Deleted]

but on the other hand: paladin will be a strong tank heal. paladin got some good damage (didn't compare that to other healers). you CAN talent those dmg abilities to heal (but i don't to that). paladins immunity is what i always liked and used it a lot to save some players. i like the design of the artifact. the big hammer looks just plain cool. our guild will run 2 druids, 1 shaman, me and a priest. so for me going pala is a smarter solution. it was like 50-50 monk or pala but the more i play paladin the more i like it.

It sounds like you suffer from Stockholm syndrome.

i like that i don't have any holy powers anymore.
i like that i have a new mastery.
i like that i can good dmg.
i like that i have a nice artifact.
i like that i can immune myself.
i like that i have the color pink.

Only the immune and pink parts are exclusive to paladins and one of them is a random color.

I really hate our lack of mobility, and from a design standpoint I think our mastery is dumb, and the continued inclusion of the stupid "martyr" abilities is also dumb - have been considering shaman or monk. Shaman is at least somewhat reactive in the same sense that paladins are, and there are a multitude of cooldowns to play with. Monk I really like, and the access to cleave healing is similar to the beacon style of healing, plus the mobility is insane.

You should go with the shaman its the only class that has a guaranteed raid spot in every single guild except for druids.

[Leefa]

I really hate our lack of mobility, and from a design standpoint I think our mastery is dumb

These are my two major issues as well.
In many cases mastery is useless in dungeons where people tend to spread out, run around and when you have to spread out due to mechanics and move around, it really hurts. Often you wont be able to stay in/near melee as theres alot of random splash damage, frontal cone/cleaves and shit being thrown underneath players. In raids you just straight up have no influence on how your mastery will perform (and I'm not talking LFR or normal mode here). The value of your mastery will be at the mercy of strategies, mechanics etc. It also ties in with the mobility issues.

Mobility-wise you're just slowing your groups down constantly. Almost every tank has something that puts them far ahead of you (fel rush / roll / leap-charge etc) as do many dps specs so it gets hard to keep up with people. A 3 second 1 minute cooldown does nothing to help mend that issue. Its happened alot to me in dungeons that people rush ahead and end up dying resulting in them kicking me from the group for being a "bad healer" or tanks/dps leaving. This isn't entirely their fault, as it is simply retarded design that more or less every spec but one or two has high mobility.
I cant imagine how well this will go once things are live. People expect to be able to rush through instances with minimal downtime these days and this sort of design will just make people not want to play these specs/classes that have no mobility.

They need to address these two core issues soon. The mobility isn't just a holy issue, its a ret/prot issue as well.

If they don't address it I'm going to hate my paladin in Legion because these are very vital parts of the spec.

The Martyr spells are horrible as well, I never find myself in a situation where I think Martyr is worth it. Sac Aura is just retarded and Hand of Sac is close to being moved to a "never used" keybind that I'll only end up popping if I use bubble. They really have no place in the toolkit as they just end up raping you instead. What is the point in using Sac when it doesnt prevent any damage? Even with the trait its still only a 9% damage reduction on a long ass cooldown. I dont know how anyone can justify that in the day and age we live in. This is some vanilla-type bullshit design imo.

Anyone who actually bother proving feedback anymore btw? I haven't visited the forums lately as it just seems pointless when nothing has happened in 3 months. Its the same crap all over again with them saying "we're listening to feedback guys!" only to go ahead and do nothing to address the issues before launch which then forces them to bandaid fix the living shit out of things once they realise something is wrong.

[Thundering]

Finally been able to try the new legion way on the ptr and well to say the least its very boring, spaming flash of light works since mana isent really an issue. Light of matyr feels dull nothing speical. More or less the same mop wod style of a priest in plate.

These are my two major issues as well.
In many cases mastery is useless in dungeons where people tend to spread out, run around and when you have to spread out due to mechanics and move around, it really hurts. Often you wont be able to stay in/near melee as theres alot of random splash damage, frontal cone/cleaves and shit being thrown underneath players. In raids you just straight up have no influence on how your mastery will perform (and I'm not talking LFR or normal mode here). The value of your mastery will be at the mercy of strategies, mechanics etc. It also ties in with the mobility issues.

Mobility-wise you're just slowing your groups down constantly. Almost every tank has something that puts them far ahead of you (fel rush / roll / leap-charge etc) as do many dps specs so it gets hard to keep up with people. A 3 second 1 minute cooldown does nothing to help mend that issue. Its happened alot to me in dungeons that people rush ahead and end up dying resulting in them kicking me from the group for being a "bad healer" or tanks/dps leaving. This isn't entirely their fault, as it is simply retarded design that more or less every spec but one or two has high mobility.
I cant imagine how well this will go once things are live. People expect to be able to rush through instances with minimal downtime these days and this sort of design will just make people not want to play these specs/classes that have no mobility.

They need to address these two core issues soon. The mobility isn't just a holy issue, its a ret/prot issue as well.

If they don't address it I'm going to hate my paladin in Legion because these are very vital parts of the spec.

The Martyr spells are horrible as well, I never find myself in a situation where I think Martyr is worth it. Sac Aura is just retarded and Hand of Sac is close to being moved to a "never used" keybind that I'll only end up popping if I use bubble. They really have no place in the toolkit as they just end up raping you instead. What is the point in using Sac when it doesnt prevent any damage? Even with the trait its still only a 9% damage reduction on a long ass cooldown. I dont know how anyone can justify that in the day and age we live in. This is some vanilla-type bullshit design imo.

Anyone who actually bother proving feedback anymore btw? I haven't visited the forums lately as it just seems pointless when nothing has happened in 3 months. Its the same crap all over again with them saying "we're listening to feedback guys!" only to go ahead and do nothing to address the issues before launch which then forces them to bandaid fix the living shit out of things once they realise something is wrong.

Cant agree more.

[Unir]

Anyone who actually bother proving feedback anymore btw? I haven't visited the forums lately as it just seems pointless when nothing has happened in 3 months. Its the same crap all over again with them saying "we're listening to feedback guys!" only to go ahead and do nothing to address the issues before launch which then forces them to bandaid fix the living shit out of things once they realise something is wrong.

I brought some of this up a short time ago, and essentially got idiotic player responses like "shut up, I'm fine with it" or "but it provides class differentiation" and "we're supposed to have weaknesses" from some, as if any of that was an appropriate or logical response to poor or illogical design elements - at which I point I realized some people are just stupid, those forums are a mess, and I quit providing feedback.

Edit: I should add: a few are still providing feedback over there but I get the sense it has slowed down a lot for the reason you mentioned - nothing has changed in a while.

[mcbubble]

-snip-

Edit: I should add: a few are still providing feedback over there but I get the sense it has slowed down a lot for the reason you mentioned - nothing has changed in a while.

There is some good feedback on the wow BETA forums, however it feels like our concerns aren't being addressed. The holy paladin thread is on page 13 atm:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...616193?page=13

[exriel]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Holy Paladins seem like they are going to be very strong in Legion. People love to complain about the mobility, but it's probably the most mobile version of the spec we have ever gotten. With just Shock, Dawn, and Bestow Faith, that's 4.5 seconds out of every 9-12 that you can move. Add in situational LotMartyr and Prism for raids and that's another 2 globals of movement. Not to mention BoP and 2 minute LoH (Legiondary + Ubreakable Spirit) for really scary moments and you now have up to 7-8 globals to get where you need to be for a given boss mechanic. Since most movement intensive mechanics rarely happen more often than 20 seconds apart, seems like we will have plenty of tools. Admittedly, running back to a boss after a wipe or trying to chase after an overzealous tank in a 5-man won't be fun, but during an encounter we shouldn't have any issues. Sometimes people are going to kick you from their PuG group for being a "bad healer" for [reasons that have nothing to do with how good a healer you are] and there's nothing you can do about it. Honestly, when that happens I feel like I've dodged a bullet because it belies a lack of knowledge on their part that could easily waste much more of my time.

The one complaint I think is legitimate is regarding those Martyr spells. As one high level player said in an interview I was watching, Aura of Sacrfice basically just means you spend the whole fight at ~80% health. Great if your druid friend is trying to parse, not so much for killing bosses. Hand of Sac now needs to be paired with BoP or Bubble to be effective, which is probably what we'll do if sac is needed for a fight. It's what we did in WotLK, but that doesn't mean it isn't bad design: using two spells to make one effective. And for LotM they seem intent on giving us enough safeguards so the penalty no longer matters, at which point they'll realize the mistake and nerf or remove it. Honestly, it's just confusing because the design of these abilities is counter to a lot of their previously stated goals and seems to forget a lot of the lessons of previous iterations of the game.

Essentially though, it's basically the same class it's been since Wrath. Beacon, in the way that it allows us to provide Tank level healing to multiple people for essentially no extra cost, fundamentally alters the math on how to assign roles in your healer comp, so as long as there are two tanks in the raid, there will be the need for a HPaladin. Unlike a lot of other classes/specs, our utility wasn't gutted. Eternal Flame? Who cares. Devo Aura both changed and exactly the same still with new auras that don't really change game play in any way, sure whatever. I'll miss the second charge on my blessings, but that was probably OP to begin with. The Artifact was unfamiliar, but the quest for Tyr's Hand is way cooler than for Ashbringer, imo. All in all, if you've liked playing Holy Paladin for the last ~4 expansions, I think you'll probably like it in Legion too, at least from a raiding perspective.

[Deleted]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Holy Paladins seem like they are going to be very strong in Legion. People love to complain about the mobility, but it's probably the most mobile version of the spec we have ever gotten. With just Shock, Dawn, and Bestow Faith, that's 4.5 seconds out of every 9-12 that you can move. Add in situational LotMartyr and Prism for raids and that's another 2 globals of movement. Not to mention BoP and 2 minute LoH (Legiondary + Ubreakable Spirit) for really scary moments and you now have up to 7-8 globals to get where you need to be for a given boss mechanic. Since most movement intensive mechanics rarely happen more often than 20 seconds apart, seems like we will have plenty of tools. Admittedly, running back to a boss after a wipe or trying to chase after an overzealous tank in a 5-man won't be fun, but during an encounter we shouldn't have any issues. Sometimes people are going to kick you from their PuG group for being a "bad healer" for [reasons that have nothing to do with how good a healer you are] and there's nothing you can do about it. Honestly, when that happens I feel like I've dodged a bullet because it belies a lack of knowledge on their part that could easily waste much more of my time.

People call it lack of mobility but what they really mean is lack of a speed boost, light of the martyr is mobility (and also the reason why we are not getting any more) but it does not solve the issues of keeping up with the tank like it has already been pointed out. This is not just an issue in 5 mans it will also be an issue in mythic raiding, you as a paladin need to be in melee for better LoD and mastery usage but when the tank is running super fast and you are slow as a rock it becomes a huge problem. Its not even about healing the tank in these kinds of scenarios, its the fact that most of the melee also have catch up mechanics that will leave you behind, and out of range to heal with LoD, so that instant LoD you have is now useless.

Essentially though, it's basically the same class it's been since Wrath. Beacon, in the way that it allows us to provide Tank level healing to multiple people for essentially no extra cost, fundamentally alters the math on how to assign roles in your healer comp, so as long as there are two tanks in the raid, there will be the need for a HPaladin. Unlike a lot of other classes/specs, our utility wasn't gutted. Eternal Flame? Who cares. Devo Aura both changed and exactly the same still with new auras that don't really change game play in any way, sure whatever. I'll miss the second charge on my blessings, but that was probably OP to begin with. The Artifact was unfamiliar, but the quest for Tyr's Hand is way cooler than for Ashbringer, imo. All in all, if you've liked playing Holy Paladin for the last ~4 expansions, I think you'll probably like it in Legion too, at least from a raiding perspective.

You dont see an issue with it being the same ever since wotlk? Other classes have gotten major overhauls and improvements while paladins still just boils down to cast HS on cd and spam FoL/HL. When you do a bit of asking around the vast majority of paladin players will tell you that the most fun paladins ever were, were in mop or cataclysm, do you not think that it is an issue that paladins have been stagnating since Cataclysm?

Oh and on the utility part, holy paladin utility absolutely has been gutted, none of our utility works anymore. Try bopping off debuffs, not going to happen. Heck even try bubbling off debuffs, DOESN'T WORK. The best utility holy paladins have in Legion is Blessing of Freedom and I think that says all you need to know.

[Taeldorian]

People call it lack of mobility but what they really mean is lack of a speed boost, light of the martyr is mobility (and also the reason why we are not getting any more) but it does not solve the issues of keeping up with the tank like it has already been pointed out.

Oh and on the utility part, holy paladin utility absolutely has been gutted, none of our utility works anymore. Try bopping off debuffs, not going to happen. Heck even try bubbling off debuffs, DOESN'T WORK. The best utility holy paladins have in Legion is Blessing of Freedom and I think that says all you need to know.

Okay, two things.

1. I've been positioning myself a bit ahead of the tanks and it's been working fine. The only tank that's "super fast" is demon hunter. I have a hard time keeping up with them in dungeons and that's it. You're overblowing this mobility thing. I agree that we could definitely use more, but we aren't shit because we don't have more. Holy Paladins have a large focus on positioning. Positioning yourself in front of the tank or a bit ahead of him is fine. You already should know what damage is coming so moving based on that knowledge isn't an issue. Again, we could use more mobility, but we aren't fucked without it as you say. I've been doing completely fine keeping up with the tank (I do use beacon of the lightbringer so I don't really need to keep up with him unless I'm using virtue) unless it's a demon hunter. That's the only tank I can't keep up with if I'm not taking lightbringer.

So, overall, positioning yourself ahead of the tank isn't a hard thing to do since as a healer we already know what damage is coming and when it's coming. Also, using beacon of the lightbringer means you don't need to keep up with the tank and you can completely eliminate that worry because he gets the full mastery affect whether your in range or not. This talent is fantastic because you don't really even need to stay in melee depending on tank positioning although we will be doing dps if your in a progression guild/raid.

Divine steed is an okish speedboost but it would be so nice if we had what prot had and could talent into making it longer if it was baseline.

2. Is this intended? IIRC BoP and bubble have always been able to remove shit like that, so I'm not sure that's intended. If it is that's ridiculous but I'm unsure if this is intended or not.

[Deleted]

Okay, two things.

1. I've been positioning myself a bit ahead of the tanks and it's been working fine. The only tank that's "super fast" is demon hunter. I have a hard time keeping up with them in dungeons and that's it. You're overblowing this mobility thing. I agree that we could definitely use more, but we aren't shit because we don't have more. Holy Paladins have a large focus on positioning. Positioning yourself in front of the tank or a bit ahead of him is fine. You already should know what damage is coming so moving based on that knowledge isn't an issue. Again, we could use more mobility, but we aren't fucked without it as you say. I've been doing completely fine keeping up with the tank (I do use beacon of the lightbringer so I don't really need to keep up with him unless I'm using virtue) unless it's a demon hunter. That's the only tank I can't keep up with.

So, overall, positioning yourself ahead of the tank isn't a hard thing to do since as a healer we already know what damage is coming and when it's coming. Also, using beacon of the lightbringer means you don't need to keep up with the tank and you can completely eliminate that worry because he gets the full mastery affect whether your in range or not.

Divine steed is an okish speedboost but it would be so nice if we had what prot had and could talent into making it longer if it was baseline.

2. Is this intended? IIRC BoP and bubble have always been able to remove shit like that, so I'm not sure that's intended. If it is that's ridiculous but I'm unsure if this is intended or not.

1. Speedboost is a problem, just go take a look at this thead: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rough-Dungeons a priest with FEATHERS (which is better than speed of light on live) is complaining about movement speed. Just because you think you are doing fine doing regular mythic dungeons or +2 or whatever you have been doing does not make it true for high end mythic raiding or mythic +15 dungeons.

2. Yes it is intended it has been like this since day 1 of alpha, it is not going to change. Freedom is the new best holy paladin utility

[Leefa]

1. I've been positioning myself a bit ahead of the tanks and it's been working fine.

Working fine until you get cleaved or coned to death. Not to mention knockbacks that may result in you pulling more mobs. It also doesnt solve anything cause everyone else is still taking damage and gain no mastery benefit. You're trying to setup situations here to prove that everything is fine because you think it is fine in whatever content you normally do. Its like someone doing LFR telling a mythic raider that x issue doesnt exist because it doesnt exist in LFR.

Bubble and HoP not working has been standard for a while now. They're trying to move away from "class stacking"-ish situations where you use mages, paladins etc to avoid debuffs.