[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Walterion]

If thalkiel told you to delete your character would you do it??

He is a floating skull with powers and understanding about demons, your skull is still attached to a useless spine. I think he is more qualified to tell you how to do your job.

[pvw1075]

If thalkiel told you to delete your character would you do it??

If he told me, I would consider it

[Deleted]

If thalkiel told you to delete your character would you do it??

He is a floating skull with powers and understanding about demons, your skull is still attached to a useless spine. I think he is more qualified to tell you how to do your job.

Wow pretty sick truth burn there.

Anyways is it somewhat correctly perceived that the new Demonology is less of a summoner and more of a inefficient dot-class gameplay wise? I wasn't lucky enough (still trying) to get access to beta and from what I've understood it seems quite immobile and busy for a "summoner" (unlike WC3, DnD, D2/D3, Dragonnest etc.)
Short durations, shard costs tied to almost everything, long casting time in the essential spells and even non-essentials and the few instants you have can be quirky (doom) or crappy (demonwrath).

Aren't summoners usually supposed to be leaning towards a more relaxing consistent dmg type of spec with a slow ramp-up rather than this absurdly busy spec? And if that was the case wouldn't it at least differentiate it from the other specs? Whats the point of having 2 affliction-type specs where the "dots" are prone to being interruptable - anyone got some info on how the beastmaster is working out as a "summoner"-type class?

[Kirroth]

Anyways is it somewhat correctly perceived that the new Demonology is less of a summoner and more of a inefficient dot-class gameplay wise? I wasn't lucky enough (still trying) to get access to beta and from what I've understood it seems quite immobile and busy for a "summoner"

I'm not in the Beta either, but I downloaded and logged onto the new 7.0 PTR today to try out the rotations for some of the specs. And at least in dummy testing, I have to confirm that Demo feels unsatisfying.

Your big two buttons Dreadstalkers and HoG (for the imps). But they don't really do much when you hit them, you're really just casting a short DoT. And it's a DoT that sucks on its own, which is why you have to follow up with Demonic Empowerment every single time. I found myself having to watch the Dreadstalker timer like a hawk so I could think ahead far enough to know if I had time to HoG+DemEmp and then get back to 2 SS before it came off cooldown. At which point I'd just cast Dreadstalkers+DemEmp.

To me, the rotation lacked tactile impact. It's a lot of time keeping your demons summoned and buffed while spamming Shadow Bolt in between to supply the Soul Shards needed for all your demons. Those SS come so cheaply that a 4SS HoG is just another maintenance buff and not a cool moment where you get to dump resources and feel like you did something powerful. And then DemEmp is a maintenance buff for your maintenance buffs.

So, as cool as the artifact as, and conceptually interesting as a summoner spec is, I think I'll be going back to Destro for Legion.

[pvw1075]

I'm liking demo - I do feel like I'm mostly a summoner - but I guess my complaint with most summoner classes were that i summoned then played a healer. The artifact does add more to it since you get a whole other dps spell from it

[Baconeggcheese]

I mean, gameplay wise you spend your time between building resources, summoning things, and buffing your summoned things. Not sure what would be more summoner-y.

Mechanically it is a dot spec that functions in a... different way, but I wouldn't say the spec doesn't properly represent a summoner spec. I do think giving it the skull instead of the scepter of sargeras was an odd choice / missed opportunity though.

[Gaidax]

Don't touch my precious Scepter with your pleb demon farmer hands.

People wanted a summoner and they got one really.

[Deleted]

I mean, gameplay wise you spend your time between building resources, summoning things, and buffing your summoned things. Not sure what would be more summoner-y.

Mechanically it is a dot spec that functions in a... different way, but I wouldn't say the spec doesn't properly represent a summoner spec. I do think giving it the skull instead of the scepter of sargeras was an odd choice / missed opportunity though.

Most summoners in other games summon a bunch of minions that run around you and are always there. What you do in the mean time is debuffing enemies to make your summons even stronger.

Common summoners:

Necromancer in D2. Summon bunch of skeletons, a golem, and eventually dead enemies. Then curse enemies and use corpse explosion. Resummon dead minions.

Witch Doctor in D3. Summon gargantuan, summon zombie dogs, summon fetishes. You still do things, your minions do most of the damage, and tanks most of the damage.

Summoner in Path of Exile. Summon zombies, debuff enemies, spam fast moving minion with limited time life.

What they all have in common is that the summons are persistent. Once you summon something, it stays there, and you only resummon it when it dies. Demonology is currently not a summon spec, it is a dot spec. If you replaced the visuals, it would be an exact dot spec. It lacks persistence, the only demon we keep when not fighting is the main demon. Similar to the other warlock specs. Our minor pets don't really tank much for us either.

It honestly seems like they wanted a demon summoning thing, but beast master was already halfway done and was summoning loads of beasts, so they went this direction instead. The dot direction.

[Deleted]

Most summoners in other games summon a bunch of minions that run around you and are always there. What you do in the mean time is debuffing enemies to make your summons even stronger.

Common summoners:

Necromancer in D2. Summon bunch of skeletons, a golem, and eventually dead enemies. Then curse enemies and use corpse explosion. Resummon dead minions.

Witch Doctor in D3. Summon gargantuan, summon zombie dogs, summon fetishes. You still do things, your minions do most of the damage, and tanks most of the damage.

Summoner in Path of Exile. Summon zombies, debuff enemies, spam fast moving minion with limited time life.

What they all have in common is that the summons are persistent. Once you summon something, it stays there, and you only resummon it when it dies. Demonology is currently not a summon spec, it is a dot spec. If you replaced the visuals, it would be an exact dot spec. It lacks persistence, the only demon we keep when not fighting is the main demon. Similar to the other warlock specs. Our minor pets don't really tank much for us either.

It honestly seems like they wanted a demon summoning thing, but beast master was already halfway done and was summoning loads of beasts, so they went this direction instead. The dot direction.

it is the way it is so that you have stuff to do all the time, the problem with more persistent demons is that it removes the need to do anything else but i do agree that it is very similar to current afflic where you cast dots(summon pets), spam filler(cast sb/db) and cast a buff(DE) and i think it will become quite boring, it does feel like demo is missing something, what that something is i cant put my finger on it, it might be some more persistent pets who knows, maybe be a bit more witch doctor'y altho that would never happen sadly but its definately a guideline they can follow.

[Deleted]

Tried Demo on the PRT last evening and I must say it was quite akward to play on the dummy.
But I assume I had the most problem because of this crappy Interface of Blizz....I can't play without elvui.

Char copy didn't worked, so I had to try it with a template...without buffs I had a duration of 15.x secs for Doom...with more than 31% haste Doom duration could be really short.

Is it correct that the gain 5% more Haste/Mastery/Crit of every point raiting is gone with legion?

But tbh all other speccs I tried feeled also akward with the template chars and without the artifact.

[wholol]

it is the way it is so that you have stuff to do all the time, the problem with more persistent demons is that it removes the need to do anything else but i do agree that it is very similar to current afflic where you cast dots(summon pets), spam filler(cast sb/db) and cast a buff(DE) and i think it will become quite boring, it does feel like demo is missing something, what that something is i cant put my finger on it, it might be some more persistent pets who knows, maybe be a bit more witch doctor'y altho that would never happen sadly but its definately a guideline they can follow.

It is missing multi- target potential and maybe longer duration pets so you can set up several groups of hounds over a long duration, but that's what affliction is for I guess.

[Deleted]

It is missing multi- target potential and maybe longer duration pets so you can set up several groups of hounds over a long duration, but that's what affliction is for I guess.

yeah, and the short duration pets doesnt help with that either, could be cool if you could summon like 10 imps and 4 dreadstalkers and have them last for a long period of time(had to resummon them if they died etc.), and then they would automatically spread out to hit the targets with doom on them, so if you had 2 targets with doom on them, then each target would be attacked by 5 imps and 2 dread stalkers etc. but i guess that is something that is too difficult to implement into their ai.

[Deleted]

I'll join the club in having played a bit of PTR being a bit disappointed in demo from first impressions. Need to install some addons and do something other than dummy play to get a proper feel for it though. I see what people mean about it being very rotational and just feels rather underwhelming. Though in effect a perma bloodlusted doomguard is fun.

Will have a better idea when I get into some group play but not sure I like how it doesn't feel as flexible as destro and to a certain extent aff. A little confused as to when to use demonic empowerment (use after every hand and dog spawn?). And as a long time player I don't feel it adds enough to justify the meta loss at all.... naturally a new player to it will most likely have a different view but as someone who played with army imps during the ToT trinket phase and the current class trinket I dislike how its still mostly just imps plus we get some dogs that don't even have 100% uptime and need a target to summon functioning as a dot. I find it very underwhelming personally.

[Deleted]

ptr plays totally different than beta

[Baconeggcheese]

Common summoners:

WoW is not a dungeon crawler.

[Deleted]

ptr plays totally different than beta

In what way? You only get one more active and the others are procs from the artefact.

[Woz]

In what way? You only get one more active and the others are procs from the artefact.

Cause on PTR you don't have that ability....which is very bugged and makes dungeons hilarious.

[Deleted]

Cause on PTR you don't have that ability....which is very bugged and makes dungeons hilarious.

Mm even assuming those numbers stay silly I'm not sure that really addresses my concerns for the spec on either a practical or personal enjoyment level. As I recall corruption was on a 2 min cd (maybe 1 minute) and that doesn't change much of how I feel regarding the rest of the playstyle as I mentioned in the post. Granted can always appreciate a silly op ability on occasion to smooth over the rough edges and without having played it (assuming it stays like that for the final iteration) I can only approximate my feelings just doesn't change much when I see that.

Was sort of hoping to 'main' demo with the artefact but looking like destroy is going to be the go-to currently sadly.

[Woz]

Mm even assuming those numbers stay silly I'm not sure that really addresses my concerns for the spec on either a practical or personal enjoyment level. As I recall corruption was on a 2 min cd (maybe 1 minute) and that doesn't change much of how I feel regarding the rest of the playstyle as I mentioned in the post. Granted can always appreciate a silly op ability on occasion to smooth over the rough edges and without having played it (assuming it stays like that for the final iteration) I can only approximate my feelings just doesn't change much when I see that.

Was sort of hoping to 'main' demo with the artefact but looking like destroy is going to be the go-to currently sadly.

No...the ability is bugged. TKC is a 45s CD (no clue what you mean by saying corruption was on a 2 or 1 min CD).

In regards to your post before;

Will have a better idea when I get into some group play but not sure I like how it doesn't feel as flexible as destro and to a certain extent aff. A little confused as to when to use demonic empowerment (use after every hand and dog spawn?).

Yes, you Empower after every wave of summoned minions. It's pretty intuitive.

And as a long time player I don't feel it adds enough to justify the meta loss at all.... naturally a new player to it will most likely have a different view but as someone who played with army imps during the ToT trinket phase and the current class trinket I dislike how its still mostly just imps plus we get some dogs that don't even have 100% uptime and need a target to summon functioning as a dot. I find it very underwhelming personally.

A summoning spec in this game is the same as a DoT spec, just using a different mechanic to facilitate the DoT. Dreadstalkers duration vs CD is very manageable and the 3s difference in them is negligible.

[SxLongshadow]

No...the ability is bugged. TKC is a 45s CD (no clue what you mean by saying corruption was on a 2 or 1 min CD).

In regards to your post before;



Yes, you Empower after every wave of summoned minions. It's pretty intuitive.



A summoning spec in this game is the same as a DoT spec, just using a different mechanic to facilitate the DoT. Dreadstalkers duration vs CD is very manageable and the 3s difference in them is negligible.

Let's not forget our 4p for T19 increases their duration by 4 seconds.