BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

"Turkey fails to meet criteria for visa-free EU travel"
(not that this directly affects the UK either way since this only applies to Schengen, but the article has other information)

[Afrospinach]

[Remain poster of Donald Trump and Boris Johnson kissing]

I thought that was Trump and Bernie, much WTF

[Deleted]

The main issue to me is one of democracy. To me the EU machine has become a disturbingly autocratic, undemocratic, bureaucratic body. Im probably older than most in this discussion and ive lived through what the EU used to be and what its become today, and its VERY worrying.

Funny, because its been consistently getting more democratic over the years.

Other issues are obviously Immigration, one that doesnt concern me much. Although this is connected to many other real issues that regular people have like jobs, housing, local services, school places, national health etc.

Okay, 1, More than half your immigration comes from outside the EU, 2, Any sort of post brexit treaty is likely to include the free movement of people, because that is what every other country has that is not part of the EU 'proper'. (Swiss/Norway)

A new issue is UK military sovereignty. Current EU plans to create an EU Federal army is very worrying.

The Lisbon treaty explicitly says Nato has first priority in any security matter - That is to say, the entity you gave away this sovereignty too, is not the EU.

Alot of people will vote to protect their industries. Fishing is the best example of this, they hate the EU and want to reclaim their fishing areas.

the EU is cracking down on everyone's fishing, because the fish is running out - Leaving the EU wont magically create more fish.

These are issues that most of the Brexit voters see as more important than all of the financial crap in the media. Theyre concerned about stuff that directly affects their day to day life, what they see happening in their towns, in their streets.

Yes, the UK finances are not impacting their daily lives.

Changes they dont like, and they blame it on the EU.

Good policy - Its clearly auto-magically the EU's fault.

[ati87]

"Turkey fails to meet criteria for visa-free EU travel"
(not that this directly affects the UK either way since this only applies to Schengen, but the article has other information)

IRRELEVANT, any person using this argument doesn't have anything else going on and it;s nothing but a racist etc

[Deleted]

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

Your biased list forgot to mention this guy... probably the best and most well respected politician the UK has had over the past 50 years R.I.P.

[Deleted]

blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/?_ga=1.85505564.443414739.1465286751

This is a very good article by Martin Lewis. The first argument I have seen from an 'in' perspective that is realistic and does not try to scaremonger. He even takes pains to explain that it is a decision you need to come to based on your own priorities, not based on the bullshit the politicians of both sides are flinging around.

Martin Lewis can't run his own forums properly.

[Slant]

If u bothered to read up properly on this issue then you would know all of the main issues that normal people are concerned about, issues that are pushing them towards leave.

The main issue to me is one of democracy. To me the EU machine has become a disturbingly autocratic, undemocratic, bureaucratic body. Im probably older than most in this discussion and ive lived through what the EU used to be and what its become today, and its VERY worrying.

Other issues are obviously Immigration, one that doesnt concern me much. Although this is connected to many other real issues that regular people have like jobs, housing, local services, school places, national health etc.

A new issue is UK military sovereignty. Current EU plans to create an EU Federal army is very worrying.

Alot of people will vote to protect their industries. Fishing is the best example of this, they hate the EU and want to reclaim their fishing areas.

These are issues that most of the Brexit voters see as more important than all of the financial crap in the media. Theyre concerned about stuff that directly affects their day to day life, what they see happening in their towns, in their streets. Changes they dont like, and they blame it on the EU.

Now, i dont stand with those people on every issue but i am grown up enough to admit that these are REAL ISSUES and theyre important to many people. So you pro-EU advocates can dismiss those issues and insult people who value those issues all you like... you wont change their minds by being a dick basically.

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CORRECTIoN: For you its the only real argument to be had.

Congratulations on pushing people further away from voting stay... being an arrogant dick isnt very appealing.

Ur awesome at ignoring peoples concerns.

I have read up on all the issues. I have debunked some of your concerns myself. The EU is a democratic institution. The UK is not part of the Schengen area, thus immigration is not an EU issue for you guys. The EU has no concrete plans for any EU military. And even if they did, the UK is in NATO and their main military concern still lie there. The fishing areas of the UK? Really, is that an argument even?

For someone who claims to have witnessed the development of the EC into the EU, you are surprisingly uninformed about the context. And as you said, you're ignoring economics anyway. So basically, you're making your decision (or have made) based on... wrong assumptions you heard somewhere and emotional bullshit that you can't buy bread with. That's fine. But how about when people show you some goodwill and explain to you just how fucked up your attitude to base such a decision on basically just thin air and a lot of bullshit you don't call them arrogant. Chances are you're wrong. You know it. I know it. You won't admit it, but we both know you're just talking bullshit and don't want to admit just how truly ignorant you know you are.

[Deleted]

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

So we should vote based on peer pressure from a list of mostly twats voting for their own selfish interests.

• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick

A regime set up by labour.

[Deleted]

Funny, because its been consistently getting more democratic over the years.

Okay, 1, More than half your immigration comes from outside the EU, 2, Any sort of post brexit treaty is likely to include the free movement of people, because that is what every other country has that is not part of the EU 'proper'. (Swiss/Norway)

The Lisbon treaty explicitly says Nato has first priority in any security matter - That is to say, the entity you gave away this sovereignty too, is not the EU.

the EU is cracking down on everyone's fishing, because the fish is running out - Leaving the EU wont magically create more fish.

Yes, the UK finances are not impacting their daily lives.

Good policy - Its clearly auto-magically the EU's fault.

Its obvious that you are very young... and i respect your optimism that things will change in the EU for the better. But us oldies have heard those promises for 40 years and we dont trust a word of it.

Cameron went to the EU a couple of months ago demanding change for the UK and they laughed in his face... i can assure u that once we vote to stay in they wont even let him in the room to discuss change. Theyll continue to build thier Federal Europe and we will remain a small part of that.

Can you remember one of the 'promises' that Cameron got from the EU? Ofc u cant because it was all hollow bullshit.

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The EU is a democratic institution.

Im with Tony Benn who worked in the EU and UK parliaments and he says that it isnt. I trust his opinion more than yours... sorry mate.

[Slant]

So we should vote based on peer pressure from a list of mostly twats voting for their own selfish interests.

As opposed to the unselfish twats that tell you to leave the EU. Because they're doing it out of the good of their hearts, to protect you.

Nah man, not buying that.

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Im with Tony Benn who worked in the EU and UK parliaments and he says that it isnt. I trust his opinion more than yours... sorry mate.

Hum, that's funny. Because, you know... the legal texts say he's a liar. So yeah, I'll trust documents signed by your prime minister more than some wanker who makes wild claims.

[Deleted]

The fishing areas of the UK? Really, is that an argument even?

Approximately 100% of people who work in the fishing industry will vote LEAVE... ur welcome to tell them that their position is irrelevant. Its an industry which has been royaly fukked over by the EU and we are powerless to go against all of the EU laws which are biased against the UK.

[Slant]

Approximately 100% of people who work in the fishing industry will vote LEAVE... ur welcome to tell them that their position is irrelevant. Its an industry which has been royaly fukked over by the EU and we are powerless to go against all of the EU laws which are biased against the UK.

Yeah, sure. They're biased against the UK. Citation definitely needed here.

[Kallisto]

If u bothered to read up properly on this issue then you would know all of the main issues that normal people are concerned about, issues that are pushing them towards leave.

The main issue to me is one of democracy. To me the EU machine has become a disturbingly autocratic, undemocratic, bureaucratic body. Im probably older than most in this discussion and ive lived through what the EU used to be and what its become today, and its VERY worrying.

Other issues are obviously Immigration, one that doesnt concern me much. Although this is connected to many other real issues that regular people have like jobs, housing, local services, school places, national health etc.

A new issue is UK military sovereignty. Current EU plans to create an EU Federal army is very worrying.

Alot of people will vote to protect their industries. Fishing is the best example of this, they hate the EU and want to reclaim their fishing areas.

These are issues that most of the Brexit voters see as more important than all of the financial crap in the media. Theyre concerned about stuff that directly affects their day to day life, what they see happening in their towns, in their streets. Changes they dont like, and they blame it on the EU.

Now, i dont stand with those people on every issue but i am grown up enough to admit that these are REAL ISSUES and theyre important to many people. So you pro-EU advocates can dismiss those issues and insult people who value those issues all you like... you wont change their minds by being a dick basically.

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CORRECTIoN: For you its the only real argument to be had.

Congratulations on pushing people further away from voting stay... being an arrogant dick isnt very appealing.

Ur awesome at ignoring peoples concerns.

The only one being an arrogant dick is you with your "I don't care what people who have studied in the field of economics for decades say. I know better" attitude. Here's a little thing. If I want to know about economics I talk to an expert in that field. If I want to know about medical issues a doctor. History how about a Historian etc etc.

Now let's take each of your comments.

If u bothered to read up properly on this issue then you would know all of the main issues that normal people are concerned about, issues that are pushing them towards leave.

The main issue to me is one of democracy. To me the EU machine has become a disturbingly autocratic, undemocratic, bureaucratic body. Im probably older than most in this discussion and ive lived through what the EU used to be and what its become today, and its VERY worrying.

Democracy. The EU is far far far more democratic than the UK. EU has MEPs voted by a PR system which destroys the FPTP system. MEPs get to overrule anything that comes out from the Commission and even have ideas for their own rules. What else do you want?

Other issues are obviously Immigration, one that doesnt concern me much. Although this is connected to many other real issues that regular people have like jobs, housing, local services, school places, national health etc.

We have this issue because of NIMBYs crying that they want houses built and then crying harder if the unused land nearby is the one designated as the building spot. We have builders waiting to build the houses, schools, hospitals etc etc. Just council level red tape stopping it. Not an EU issue it's a snob issue.

Alot of people will vote to protect their industries. Fishing is the best example of this, they hate the EU and want to reclaim their fishing areas.

Fishing industry would have been wrecked without the quotas because simply put fishermen were fishing the fish to extinction. Tough luck to some of the fishermen who lose out but instead of bitching to Farage (Who was in the European parliament fishing group but barely bothered to turn up. Some great friend to fishermen) they should have looked for jobs in a different industry. Now as for steel the other big one. The EU fought tooth and nail to protect all European steel. Guess what happened. One nation blocked it, One... UK under Cameron. But in the end it comes down to this. China can produce steel at a fraction of the cost we can in the UK. 2 choices A) Don't trade with China (Yeah right) B) Realise that if you want the UK Steel industry to be competative steel workers should accept wage payment of £5 a day tops.

These are issues that most of the Brexit voters see as more important than all of the financial crap in the media. Theyre concerned about stuff that directly affects their day to day life, what they see happening in their towns, in their streets. Changes they dont like, and they blame it on the EU.

Now, i dont stand with those people on every issue but i am grown up enough to admit that these are REAL ISSUES and theyre important to many people. So you pro-EU advocates can dismiss those issues and insult people who value those issues all you like... you wont change their minds by being a dick basically.

Because these are not logical issues. They are emotive ones based on the Appeal to emotion fallacy. I deal in logic and when someone does bring an emotional appeal to an argument they should be dismissed outright.

People are crying over what some parts of town have someone speaking Pole/Hungarian/whatever. Who gives a flying fuck. They're humans, they're working. Deal with it.

[Deleted]

Yeah, sure. They're biased against the UK. Citation definitely needed here.

Google is your friend... you will find plenty of UK fisherman explaining to you what u need to know.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36421312


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Hum, that's funny. Because, you know... the legal texts say he's a liar. So yeah, I'll trust documents signed by your prime minister more than some wanker who makes wild claims.

Im still trusting what Tony Benn tells me over you... have u worked in the EU parliament?

This is hilarious just how blinkered people can be... you are so set in your religion that u refuse to sit down and objectively analyse the evidence. Im not here to change your mind, im just here to try to explain to you whats important to Brexit voters...

You keep insulting them and im sure theyll change their vote! lol

[Deleted]

Its obvious that you are very young... and i respect your optimism that things will change in the EU for the better. But us oldies have heard those promises for 40 years and we dont trust a word of it.

And yet as an "oldie" you must know the UK grew from the death of the British Empire as well as considered the "sick man of Europe", begging the IMF for bail outs, the very same institution in charge of organizing Greece's finances and its major structural reforms, to become the world's 4th largest economy and the 2nd largest in the EU all while part of the Common Market and EU.

This once in a lifetime vote is not for you or your peers. Just like the 1975 vote, it is for your children, those who were born then and thereafter and thankfully they made the right decision.

I have full confidence, that despite so many repeated attempts by British politicians to use the EU itself as a political football in so many ways, from electoral to party-political to even jostling for Prime Minister, that ordinary Brits will not be fooled and will make the correct decision for their children's sakes.

Oh, and everything GoblinP responded to for each of your individual "non-economic" points is spot on.

[Deleted]

Its obvious that you are very young... and i respect your optimism that things will change in the EU for the better.

I'm not 'young' nor do i think there is something 'wrong' with the EU.

But us oldies have heard those promises for 40 years and we dont trust a word of it.
Cameron went to the EU a couple of months ago demanding change for the UK and they laughed in his face...

Because ultimately 27 other EU countries don't think the way you think.

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Approximately 100% of people who work in the fishing industry will vote LEAVE... ur welcome to tell them that their position is irrelevant. Its an industry which has been royaly fukked over by the EU and we are powerless to go against all of the EU laws which are biased against the UK.

Yeah the Swedish fishermen love the EU too - Oh wait, No they don't - Because the EU telling them 'there is no more fish, you cant fish' is apparently 'problematic'

[Slant]

Google is your friend... you will find plenty of UK fisherman explaining to you what u need to know.

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Im still trusting what Tony Benn tells me over you... have u worked in the EU parliament?

This is hilarious just how blinkered people can be... you are so set in your religion that u refuse to sit down and objectively analyse the evidence. Im not here to change your mind, im just here to try to explain to you whats important to Brexit voters...

You keep insulting them and im sure theyll change their vote! lol

Unlike you, I have linked to primary sources a shitton of times in this thread. So, no. You made the wild claim, you can back it up. I'll just formally call bullshit on it now, because you strike me as the type of person that never researches anything and I'm having fantastic 50/50 odds of you being dead wrong even without knowing what the EU is all about.

And you don't actually provide arguments, you're just sitting here, tellins us we're wrong. But you don't actually say why. So yeah, I'm not here to convince you either. I'm here to be able to later tell you "See, told you." and to read interesting posts about the topic. But you really are not interesting at all. You're arguing like a 12 year old.

[zmp]

Can someone make a list of pros of why staying in the EU? Ill donate 10k Garrison gold to Save the Children foundation in return, promise.

[Deleted]

I'm not 'young' nor do i think there is something 'wrong' with the EU.

Because ultimately 27 other EU countries don't think the way you think.

And right here you shout loud and clear that you are not reading the media from around Europe...

This UK vote has sparked massive campaigns in several other EU countries to leave the EU. The DUtch have been close to leaving for years, and now Italy and even France have big political movements pressuring the government to give the people a vote... just like in the UK.

Dude seriously... do your research... and stop reading UK crap newspapers for your news!!!!!!

This Brexit vote has sparked massive unrest throughout the Eurozone... FACT.

[Slant]

And right here you shout loud and clear that you are not reading the media from around Europe...

This UK vote has sparked massive campaigns in several other EU countries to leave the EU. The DUtch have been close to leaving for years, and now Italy and even France have big political movements pressuring the government to give the people a vote... just like in the UK.

Dude seriously... do your research... and stop reading UK crap newspapers for your news!!!!!!

This Brexit vote has sparked massive unrest throughout the Eurozone... FACT.

Massive unrest is something else, mate. Get a grip on reality.