Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[sabe]

It is run on an emulator......that is all you need to know. It is not run directly on hardware. Also as Gadzooks said they are using different equations to make it work from what standard blizzard code is. And secondly it is not safe practice to run third party code because you may not find if there is a backdoor hidden in the code without going over it with a fine tooth comb which could take more effort than just rewriting code to make the old fragmented code they have work, as they at least they made it and know there is no gaping holes in it. But hey you are blinded by the fact in your mind that blizzard is withholding something from you that you want...... GUESS WHAT(to quote the Stones)...... YOU CAN'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU WANT......

Don't change the direction of your talk. We are not talking about safety etc. Tell me how it won't work with Battle.net or Blizzard code. Please go for details. I need to know details about code. Please tell me about the equations exactly.
Saying "It won't work" doesn't prove anything to me. How are you %100 sure, enlighten me please.
From all the things i write you took out Nost part, even thou i said i don't care how it works.
Please provide structures etc. from Nost code and Blizz code so it is easy to compare and understand. I am listening.

After your edit:

Yes the keep financials for 7 years because they can be audited for that time and are legally required to keep them for that long, but there is no legal requirement to keep every version and edit of software ever made.


By not keeping all the backups they reduced costs as they are not paying for the storage and the cost of testing these backups.

Standards are for quality, and what you quote is about quality. By not keeping back ups how come they reduced costs? They will have to do them again or something alike if they will. They wasted work hours somehow.
And haha for storage costs for such small size.

Even laws are related to quality standards
http://www.aicpa.org/INTERESTAREAS/T...s/default.aspx

Look what i found:
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=16000BO

ON page it says "Ensure test documentation, results, and artifacts are maintained." This is what Blizzard wants from the quality person.

[MoanaLisa]

You might not but Blizzard do. They don't want to use Nost's code due to risks that could be associated with using it.

Battle.net integration is also a factor. Anyone here who imagines that Blizzard is going to do this and not integrate everything directly to battle.net is fooling themselves.

[Eleccybubb]

Battle.net integration is also a factor. Anyone here who imagines that Blizzard is going to do this and not integrate everything directly to battle.net is fooling themselves.

Exactly and if they integrate Nost's client into battle.net and find a security leak/breach then Battle.net is royally fucked if it is something serious.

[Gadzooks]

Are you a working person? If so did you ever work in a large company or with a customer that is large?
There are written quality standards in our world and they are universal. You can see most succesful companies obey these standards. Look what used to be there matters now. So lets look at what ISO says from ISO web page

It's a video game, dude, not banking or engineering with safety standards. LOL.

I said i don't care how it works and how are you %100 sure it won't work with some changes? Is Blizzard using a different language from another world?
Please prove me how it is impossible for Nost code to work with Battle.net. Listening..

Are you going to hold your breath until you turn blue and the Nost stuff magically becomes compatible?

- - - Updated - - -

Battle.net integration is also a factor. Anyone here who imagines that Blizzard is going to do this and not integrate everything directly to battle.net is fooling themselves.

And, get it for free. This will have to paid for, and subs won't do it.

[Jerichofr]

I am aware it is not the way to do it and thank you for sharing this.
Doesn't say impossible. I just wanted to know how the poster could be %100 sure.

So it’s not like we can even take that data and put it in the game, because they actually aren’t even really compatible - they have a completely different approach to creating content.

The can not use Nost's code. 100% impossible. Straight from the horse's mouth. That is all the proof you need.

[Vineri]

I think the best thing moving forward is to keep telling Blizzard what it is you get from legacy servers, and hope to get - and not get mired down into arguing about druid tanks or aspects of copyright law you have no clue about or accusing Blizzard of lying - tell them what it is they're not giving you. They're listening, at least for the moment. Take advantage of it. They read these forums. They read most of the WoW related sites.

If you feel that way, then why all the sabotage against Legacy arguments, on your part? Guilty conscience?

Some of the more stubborn posters here hold Blizzard to unreasonable standards for data retention, expecting them to hold every scrap of code, every change, every iteration of their databases, forever - and expect them to have seen their code as something that would need to be reused a decade later, back in 2004. That's just...laughable. They didn't even know if WoW would be around another 10 years, so when they overwrote data in the databases, what used to be there didn't matter.

But none of this will matter - they'll still throw tantrums and insist that it's easy, or that Blizzard is lying, or that the guesswork Nost did can just be copied and pasted onto a live Blizzard server. It's the same mentality and childish tantrum throwing that has fueled this thread from page one.

It's not unreasonable. Every software company I was involved with in the past had Version Control, along with copies of previous revisions. It isn't really unreasonable to assume as much.

Yes, for a small time company making < 100k .. or even < 250k , sure payroll needs to be met, shortcuts taken. For a multi Million to Billion dollar company, you need to be joking if you justify a sloppy company. Blizzard is sloppy if they lost Version Control, as well as backups.

[Eapoe]

If you feel that way, then why all the sabotage against Legacy arguments, on your part? Guilty conscience?




It's not unreasonable. Every software company I was involved with in the past had Version Control, along with copies of previous revisions. It isn't really unreasonable to assume as much.

Yes, for a small time company making < 100k .. or even < 250k , sure payroll needs to be met, shortcuts taken. For a multi Million to Billion dollar company, you need to be joking if you justify a sloppy company. Blizzard is sloppy if they lost Version Control, as well as backups.

I'm sure it's safe to say that McDonald's is a company worth more than Blizzard at this point, and if you asked them to show you the specific data of how many Big Macs, Quarter Pounders, McNuggets they sold, and then asked how many of those products were thrown in the trash from time sat on the counter, not prepared properly, etc, they would not be able to find the old paperwork or digital paper trail from that time.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't change the direction of your talk. We are not talking about safety etc. Tell me how it won't work with Battle.net or Blizzard code. Please go for details. I need to know details about code. Please tell me about the equations exactly.
Saying "It won't work" doesn't prove anything to me. How are you %100 sure, enlighten me please.
From all the things i write you took out Nost part, even thou i said i don't care how it works.
Please provide structures etc. from Nost code and Blizz code so it is easy to compare and understand. I am listening.

After your edit:


Standards are for quality, and what you quote is about quality. By not keeping back ups how come they reduced costs? They will have to do them again or something alike if they will. They wasted work hours somehow.
And haha for storage costs for such small size.

Even laws are related to quality standards
http://www.aicpa.org/INTERESTAREAS/T...s/default.aspx

Look what i found:
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=16000BO

ON page it says "Ensure test documentation, results, and artifacts are maintained." This is what Blizzard wants from the quality person.

It won't work because, in simplest terms: you can not take incomplete product A and combine with incorrect product B and expect a working system. For analogy purposes, if I take my term paper on guerilla warfare in Vietnam and cut the middle 2 paragraphs out, and then fill that space with your essay based on Sun Tzu's principles and teachings, even though those things have a small amount in common, the paper will not work and become a jumbled mess.
If Blizzard took the information they have, and (even if they could) filled the gaps with Nost's "best guess" emulated coding, you will have bugs and glitches and the game will more than likely crash or even fail to work at all when the coding does not compute correctly.

[Vineri]

I'm sure it's safe to say that McDonald's is a company worth more than Blizzard at this point, and if you asked them to show you the specific data of how many Big Macs, Quarter Pounders, McNuggets they sold, and then asked how many of those products were thrown in the trash from time sat on the counter, not prepared properly, etc, they would not be able to find the old paperwork or digital paper trail from that time.

I'm sure Blizzard will give you a gold sticker for that response .. but alas, noone else will.

If McDonalds lost records for health inspections? That is more practical. Health inspections are something a food company KEEPS. Revision control is something a Software Company KEEPS. Good analogy.

Lose them, and yeah it's sloppy accounting and documentation of info.

[Eapoe]

I'm sure Blizzard will give you a gold sticker for that response .. but alas, noone else will.

If McDonalds lost records for health inspections? That is more practical. Health inspections are something a food company KEEPS. Revision control is something a Software Company KEEPS. Good analogy.

Lose them, and yeah it's sloppy accounting and documentation of info.

It was an example of multimillion dollar companies not keeping track of records after a certain point. The fact that it's a counter to your point and something that apparently got to you so bad you had to downplay it the way you did shows that you are not open to anything against your ideas. Moreover, it shows that you are not open to reason or logical thinking and just grasping at straws as to why you aren't getting something you want.
The main point is, short of the government, files aren't kept indefinitely for almost every occupation. I'm sure even thru history there are banks that no longer have records past a certain point.

[sabe]

It's a video game, dude, not banking or engineering with safety standards. LOL.

If it is just a video game why Blizzard have a Quality Assurance team that follows quality standards?

I'm sure it's safe to say that McDonald's is a company worth more than Blizzard at this point, and if you asked them to show you the specific data of how many Big Macs, Quarter Pounders, McNuggets they sold, and then asked how many of those products were thrown in the trash from time sat on the counter, not prepared properly, etc, they would not be able to find the old paperwork or digital paper trail from that time.

- - - Updated - - -



It won't work because, in simplest terms: you can not take incomplete product A and combine with incorrect product B and expect a working system. For analogy purposes, if I take my term paper on guerilla warfare in Vietnam and cut the middle 2 paragraphs out, and then fill that space with your essay based on Sun Tzu's principles and teachings, even though those things have a small amount in common, the paper will not work and become a jumbled mess.
If Blizzard took the information they have, and (even if they could) filled the gaps with Nost's "best guess" emulated coding, you will have bugs and glitches and the game will more than likely crash or even fail to work at all when the coding does not compute correctly.

Please don't tell me Nost code won't work anymore. I start to think i am talking with same poster with 5 different accounts.I just wanted to know how that poster could be %100 sure. So i asked him to show us his knowledge about the issue. I don't need your guess, if you have knowledge and can prove please tell me if not, stop replying to me about it.

It was an example of multimillion dollar companies not keeping track of records after a certain point. The fact that it's a counter to your point and something that apparently got to you so bad you had to downplay it the way you did shows that you are not open to anything against your ideas. Moreover, it shows that you are not open to reason or logical thinking and just grasping at straws as to why you aren't getting something you want.
The main point is, short of the government, files aren't kept indefinitely for almost every occupation. I'm sure even thru history there are banks that no longer have records past a certain point.

Your example is not valid, did you see them destroying any records? Don't make assumptions, come with proof.
How long did they keep records before destroying them?
There is a life time for keeping documents and stuff. Wotlk release date was end of 2008, people were asking for Vanilla server before even Wotlk which potentially makes old data important again.
They couldn't keep records for 5 years?

Look a topic from 2009
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=...ers-being-made
A PS from 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPftQuMMkkc

Even 11 years is not an excuse to delete work done. 11 years is nothing for any company. It is not long enough.

[Eapoe]

If it is just a video game why Blizzard have a Quality Assurance team that follows quality standards?




Please don't tell me Nost code won't work anymore. I start to think i am talking with same poster with 5 different accounts.I just wanted to know how that poster could be %100 sure. So i asked him to show us his knowledge about the issue. I don't need your guess, if you have knowledge and can prove please tell me if not, stop replying to me about it.



Your example is not valid, did you see them destroying any records? Don't make assumptions, come with proof.
How long did they keep records before destroying them?
There is a life time for keeping documents and stuff. Wotlk release date was end of 2008, people were asking for Vanilla server long before even Wotlk which potentially makes old data important again.
They couldn't keep records for 5 years?

Look a topic from 2009
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=...ers-being-made

Even 11 years is not an excuse to delete work done. 11 years is nothing for any company. It is not long enough.

Even banks don't keep most records after 5 years as they are not required to. What's with the grasping to prove you are right and following up with things with "lalalala I can't hear you?" Again, going back to a financial institution that doesn't even keep records past the 5 year point, I think it's completely acceptable that a business that has no plans to go back to its 1st iteration of an evolving game to not have everything saved.
I've already proven how the Nost code won't work. Blizzard can not take their code for a running game and combine it with another entities code and have it work. Code needs to be compatible and work together, which the 2 entities clearly would not. I even broke it down in an analogy that should have made it completely clear why it wouldn't work correctly. Maybe you don't know what an essay is, so I'll break it down like this: an infants crib has a circle, square, and triangular hole. The crib also has a circle, square, and triangle block. Even though they belong to the same crib and serve the same purpose, you can not fit the square thru the triangle and vice versa.
It's not guess work when you understand that bad coding is what causes glitches and unplayable software. To suggest that a code that is partially missing can then be combined with another code from an outside source and that it will be playable is just laughable, at best. You don't even need to understand coding that when XYBGFH=mechanic/health/pillar of the castle, that if YBG is missing and you fill it with FHD that it is going to translate properly.

[sabe]

Even banks don't keep most records after 5 years as they are not required to. What's with the grasping to prove you are right and following up with things with "lalalala I can't hear you?" Again, going back to a financial institution that doesn't even keep records past the 5 year point, I think it's completely acceptable that a business that has no plans to go back to its 1st iteration of an evolving game to not have everything saved.
I've already proven how the Nost code won't work. Blizzard can not take their code for a running game and combine it with another entities code and have it work. Code needs to be compatible and work together, which the 2 entities clearly would not. I even broke it down in an analogy that should have made it completely clear why it wouldn't work correctly. Maybe you don't know what an essay is, so I'll break it down like this: an infants crib has a circle, square, and triangular hole. The crib also has a circle, square, and triangle block. Even though they belong to the same crib and serve the same purpose, you can not fit the square thru the triangle and vice versa.
It's not guess work when you understand that bad coding is what causes glitches and unplayable software. To suggest that a code that is partially missing can then be combined with another code from an outside source and that it will be playable is just laughable, at best. You don't even need to understand coding that when XYBGFH=mechanic/health/pillar of the castle, that if YBG is missing and you fill it with FHD that it is going to translate properly.

Banks don't have to keep records 5 years after closing the account not just 5 years.

Why are you still focused on Nost code, i have said i don't care in nearly every post of mine in this topic. If you still want to beat me to it show us the code so we can understand how it is not compatible or made compatible.
Don't tell me circles, triangles and some capital letters give us the codes.

[Tackhisis]

It is run on an emulator... It is not run directly on hardware.

Mangos is run directly on hardware. It is a server data/protocol being emulated, not a different architecture.

[Chaelexi]

Don't change the direction of your talk. We are not talking about safety etc. Tell me how it won't work with Battle.net or Blizzard code. Please go for details. I need to know details about code. Please tell me about the equations exactly.
Saying "It won't work" doesn't prove anything to me. How are you %100 sure, enlighten me please.
From all the things i write you took out Nost part, even thou i said i don't care how it works.
Please provide structures etc. from Nost code and Blizz code so it is easy to compare and understand. I am listening.

You just want to completely discount the security, the biggest reason why blizzard would not use Nost code because you have NO ANSWER FOR IT. Accept it they weill never use Nost code for this reason alone. Not to mention what Gadzooks said "Nost could have had a line of code that x+y=z, the real code on Blizzard's servers were m*n/p +f=z." Things along those lines. Remember Nost did what they could to make the server work, did a good job of it, but have admitted that blizzard code would be significantly different then theirs. It's ok you can go back to your unicorns and rainbows because in a fairy tail is the only place blizzard will use Nost's code. SO you might as well move on to a real discussion.

And to be you please tell me how Nost's code will integrate into Blizzards Battle.net system. You are the one that presented the idea so you should have to defend why it will work. I bet you can not.

- - - Updated - - -

Mangos is run directly on hardware. It is a server data/protocol being emulated, not a different architecture.

Still does not fix the security issues.....

[sabe]

You just want to completely discount the security, the biggest reason why blizzard would not use Nost code because you have NO ANSWER FOR IT. Accept it they weill never use Nost code for this reason alone. Not to mention what Gadzooks said "Nost could have had a line of code that x+y=z, the real code on Blizzard's servers were m*n/p +f=z." Things along those lines. Remember Nost did what they could to make the server work, did a good job of it, but have admitted that blizzard code would be significantly different then theirs. It's ok you can go back to your unicorns and rainbows because in a fairy tail is the only place blizzard will use Nost's code. SO you might as well move on to a real discussion.

And to be you please tell me how Nost's code will integrate into Blizzards Battle.net system. You are the one that presented the idea so you should have to defend why it will work. I bet you can not.

- - - Updated - - -



Still does not fix the security issues.....

Where are the codes, you are just making assuptions on codes you never saw.
You commenting things that you have no knowledge about.
Prove me it how it won't work, give us both codes.

I just said they can use if they want, i don't care as long as it works.

And there is a thing called "System Integration". Lets check the definition from Wiki page: In engineering, system integration is defined as the process of bringing together the component subsystems into one system and ensuring that the subsystems function together as a system.[1] In information technology, systems integration[2] is the process of linking together different computing systems and software applications physically or functionally,[3] to act as a coordinated whole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration

How are you people so sure that it can't be done, are you all Bjarne Stroustrup?

[Eapoe]

Banks don't have to keep records 5 years after closing the account not just 5 years.

Why are you still focused on Nost code, i have said i don't care in nearly every post of mine in this topic. If you still want to beat me to it show us the code so we can understand how it is not compatible or made compatible.
Don't tell me circles, triangles and some capital letters give us the codes.

So you just agreed that a bank doesn't keep records of EVERYTHING for life. Thanks. Now to move on, if a bank does not keep every single little thing on file, why do you expect, and even more, require Blizzard to maintain and hold all records for almost 10 years? Other than "they just should" or "I know they have."
Also, I am not saying that's the code, I'm giving a very basic example for you to follow. If a very basic principle such as the previous analogies escape you, I don't even understand how you could begin to fathom something as intricate as code and compatability will be any easier. You are seriously grasping at straws to keep this going, so much so that I'm done with it. If you feel this is a win for you, so be it, but I wash my hands of it. If you are happier coming up with things to feel like Blizzard is just doing this to be a-holes, more power to you.
As for your last post, it says as clearly as the definition you gave, "ensuring the subsystems work together...linking together systems physically and FUNCTIONALLY." They would have to bring the codes together, and then work their asses off to make sure they work together. At that point they might as well just rewrite all the code themselves for BNET integration as well as making sure everything is as accurate as possible to how it was in the day. Even Blizzard stated Nost was an approximation.

[Chaelexi]

Where are the codes, you are just making assuptions on codes you never saw.
You commenting things that you have no knowledge about.
Prove me it how it won't work, give us both codes.

I just said they can use if they want, i don't care as long as it works.

And there is a thing called "System Integration". Lets check the definition from Wiki page: In engineering, system integration is defined as the process of bringing together the component subsystems into one system and ensuring that the subsystems function together as a system.[1] In information technology, systems integration[2] is the process of linking together different computing systems and software applications physically or functionally,[3] to act as a coordinated whole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration

How are you people so sure that it can't be done, are you all Bjarne Stroustrup?

Still avoiding the security issues like the plague I see. Until you can prove why using Nost is viable amd safe or even how Blizzard would expect to make any profit off of providing another game for free this discussion is over as you are now grasping at straws and backtracking from your use Nost stance because it is not possible. So please tell me how using 3rd party code is a safe measure........I dare you.

[sabe]

Still avoiding the security issues like the plague I see. Until you can prove why using Nost is viable amd safe or even how Blizzard would expect to make any profit off of providing another game for free this discussion is over as you are now grasping at straws and backtracking from your use Nost stance because it is not possible. So please tell me how using 3rd party code is a safe measure........I dare you.

No wait don't change the direction. We weren't talking about security or anything else. You were saying it can't be done. What happens to your triangles and circles.
I never said anything if Nost is the best way to do it but you spoke %100 sure it can't be done.
So you accept there is a possibility that it can be done?

[voidillusion]

I'd like to see legacy servers like anyother guy here.

But the explanation to the latest questions being thrown around here was already kinda answered by both Nost and Blizz. WoW over the years has become a very dynamic world, today's Ashenvale isn't the same as 5 years ago Ashenvale, or 10 years ago Ashenvale, and to reach this point it went though many changes, some very minute, and from what i understood from their explanation, not all changes were documented, saved or wtv.

Now you can say Blizz should have kept a way better backup system since they are a huge and very profitable game. I kinda agree. But i also undestand that having so many micro changes on so many layers of the game over the years is damn hard to properly keep saved and documented, and most of all, why would they want that at the first place, there's no apparent need for that until we start discussing Vanilla servers.

Wich brings us to today, for vanilla to be rebuilt as a part of Blizz products there has to be some work, period, nothing else, "just" some work. And as much as i want to see that work done, i understand it will be a big undertaking of reconstruction, and it has to have profit in sight for them to allocate the needed resources.

I don't understand ppl saying the Nost couldn't be a part of this process though. It's only a matter of Blizz wanting that, hiring them or outsorcing them, train them in some way so they keep the product in line with the rest and go with it. Why this is such a problem for some is something i also struggle to see.

[Relapses]

I don't understand ppl saying the Nost couldn't be a part of this process though. It's only a matter of Blizz wanting that, hiring them or outsorcing them, train them in some way so they keep the product in line with the rest and go with it. Why this is such a problem for some is something i also struggle to see.

In a perfect world where Blizzard can easily integrate an emulated version of their game into their current B.net infrastructure without investing the same amount of effort they'd exert from simply rebuilding the game from their own stored source code, I'd agree. But as has been mentioned numerous times, Blizzard has already had their legal team look into the possibility and there is no way for Blizzard to protect its IP and grant an operating license to a private server. That is the reality of the situation.