Assault Weapons are not real

[TITAN308]

Not a 100% sure but I think AR in AR-15 stands for assault rifle

Not even close.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

My father was a Marine there, so I meet a lot of the people in the veteran groups he is involved with and his circle of friends from that time. But the criticism didn't taper off after they fixed the initial run; M14 just better, general sentiment I've heard. I've shot both myself (well, AR-15 in semi and and M1A) and I can't disagree... just better



Yes... a list of purely cosmetic features that don't actually change how the weapon operates.

High capacity magazines don't change the amount of ammunition a gun can fire without reloading? That's an interesting spin.

[TITAN308]

High capacity magazines don't change the amount of ammunition a gun can fire without reloading? That's an interesting spin.

An average monkey can change a magazine on an AR-15 in less than 3 seconds. Just as a note of contention. Anyone who trains with any frequency can do it in about 1 second.

Magazine capacity doesn't matter unless someone in the crowd is willing to fight back.

We often see Jared loughner toted out in this regard in how he was tackled, etc etc

However this is not the norm, as we have seen, people just either run or lay down to die.

[Stormdash]

High capacity magazines don't change the amount of ammunition a gun can fire without reloading? That's an interesting spin.

They don't change it much more than a sip of water changes your respiratory rate, or a breath changes your singing performance. Which people who ever shoot guns, for work or pleasure, would know.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

An average monkey can change a magazine on an AR-15 in less than 3 seconds. Just as a note of contention.

And how far can you travel in 3 seconds to either get away from, or take the gun away from someone changing magazines?

You're familiar with the 21 foot rule, yes?

[TITAN308]

And how far can you travel in 3 seconds to either get away from, or take the gun away from someone changing magazines?

You're familiar with the 21 foot rule, yes?

I edited my post after the fact to include:

Magazine capacity doesn't matter unless someone in the crowd is willing to fight back.

We often see Jared loughner toted out in this regard in how he was tackled, etc etc

However this is not the norm, as we have seen, people just either run or lay down to die.

Also, running away, in an enclosed building isn't going to change much (like the recent club shooting)

[Stormdash]

And how far can you travel in 3 seconds to either get away from, or take the gun away from someone changing magazines?

You're familiar with the 21 foot rule, yes?

The 21 foot rule assumes a) a determined attacker, b) the shooter unaware of the threat at the start. It is really meaningless when talking about scenarios where it's the shooter that has formed intent and is taking action and the non-shooter that has to go through the OODA loop.

And TITAN is right, if nobody's going to actually fight back, you could have brought a lever action to your mass shooting for all the difference reload time will make.

[saltytoes718]

A law defining something is actually the meaning. Also the DOJ defines an assault weapon as a semi-automatic weapon.

Anything self loading upon trigger pull is a semi automatic weapon.

[8bithamster]

Nobody knows what it means because the definition shifts to whichever weapon they want to ban at any given time.

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Activists came up with the term. Nobody knows what differentiates an "assault weapon" from any other kind of firearm.

Aah, the irrational gun nut.. EHMAGERD IT CAN BE USED ANTI GUUURNZ ITS ACTIVIST SPEAK! YOU DIRTY COMMY!" etc etc

"it's the activist that does this" is the translation of "I ran out of arguments so just blame a group"

[TITAN308]

Aah, the irrational gun nut.. EHMAGERD IT CAN BE USED ANTI GUUURNZ ITS ACTIVIST SPEAK! YOU DIRTY COMMY!" etc etc

"it's the activist that does this" is the translation of "I ran out of arguments so just blame a group"

In an ironic twist of trying to point out a cliche stereotype, you've actually showed yourself as one. Just FYI.

[Karon]

Semi automatic rifles are a real thing. Assault weapons are not.

Then how comes that the US military uses them?

Or do they just use their imagination?

[Themius]

So you would be fine if they say semi-automatic weapons? Doesn't make a difference though as the AR-15 is just the civilian form of the M-16.

Apparently not, the family of the inventor of the weapon said he intended it to be military.

[Schattenlied]

you just LOVE big guns

Let's be real here, the AR-15 isn't a big gun.

Apparently not, the family of the inventor of the weapon said he intended it to be military.

The AR-15 has been sold to civilians since 1963, he had 34 years between then and his death to voice concerns over that if he wanted to, and never did... During those 34 years he continued to work for and with companies that produced and sold AR-15 rifles (and other civilian variants of military firearms, like the Knight's Armament SR-25) to civilians... If he had a problem with it, he sure didn't show it, and thus I don't believe for a second that he actually did.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The 21 foot rule assumes a) a determined attacker, b) the shooter unaware of the threat at the start. It is really meaningless when talking about scenarios where it's the shooter that has formed intent and is taking action and the non-shooter that has to go through the OODA loop.

And TITAN is right, if nobody's going to actually fight back, you could have brought a lever action to your mass shooting for all the difference reload time will make.

The 21 foot rule assumes a person can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Expanding that to 3 seconds...that person can cover over 40 feet...that can either get them out of the immediate range of the attacker or give them the opportunity to try and overpower them.

And yes, the willingness to fight back is a component in that...but that component is severely limited by an active shooter that doesn't need to take the time to reload. And considering how many times I read "the only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"...the assumption is that people want to fight back, right?

[TITAN308]

Apparently not, the family of the inventor of the weapon said he intended it to be military.

Well they said so, so it must be true.

I'm sure they will be donating a large portion of their inheritance and royalty checks any day now.

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The 21 foot rule assumes a person can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Expanding that to 3 seconds...that person can cover over 40 feet...that can either get them out of the immediate range of the attacker or give them the opportunity to try and overpower them.

And yes, the willingness to fight back is a component in that...but that component is severely limited by an active shooter that doesn't need to take the time to reload.

Keep in mind, 3 seconds is like handing someone an AR-15 that has never fired one before. Remember, I said a monkey.

The reality is, with any small amount of training a magazine change can be executed in about 1 second.

I understand your argument, however, in reality I don't think its going to factor in much or change anything.

[saltytoes718]

Any sort of gun that isn't designed for hunting, and is designed for use in a militaristic way should not be allowed in civilian hands. The only reason you would need a gun that reloads so quickly and fires so fast, is if you were taking down multiple targets in a very short amount of time. So unless people plan to go out hunting and plan to take down a herd of deer all at once, they can go fuck themselves and start learning how to live in the modern world.

Your country is sick.


Assault seems to imply that the weapon is going to be used to "assault" a target, rather then hunt it.

The second amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting, creating a weapon designed solely for the purpose of defense is entirely legal and well within a citizens right to posses.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Well they said so, so it must be true.

I'm sure they will be donating a large portion of their inheritance and royalty checks any day now.

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Keep in mind, 3 seconds is like handing someone an AR-15 that has never fired one before. Remember, I said a monkey.

The reality is, with any small amount of training a magazine change can be executed in about 1 second.

1 second would still be about 15 feet. In a life or death situation, I would at least like to think I'd try to look for any opportunity to fight back. Maybe I would, maybe not. But, for a person that is willing to fight...1 second can change the entire situation.

The whole thing about a high capacity magazine is that you limit the amount of chances people have to fight back. That's why mass shooters like them so much. The whole point is to maximize the amount of shots you can take before reloading.

[Stormdash]

The 21 foot rule assumes a person can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Expanding that to 3 seconds...that person can cover over 40 feet...that can either get them out of the immediate range of the attacker or give them the opportunity to try and overpower them.

You aren't really fully familiar with the theory behind the Tueller drill if you don't realize that it works because the shooter has to do the OODA part as WELL as draw/aim/fire. The Tueller premise isn't a quick draw competition between two "ready" subjects.

Also worth noting here that 3 seconds is a slow AF mag change for a determined shooter who has planned out a mass attack.

Also worth noting that for it to even matter how often a shooter has to change magazines, the potential unarmed responder has to be counting shots while not getting killed, be right about the capacity, be right that the shooter is empty and hasn't paused for some other reason, etc. Which is probably a good time to mention, those are all things it would be a lot easier to take advantage of if the responder were preparing to return fire from cover and not actually rush the shooter. I mean, anything is better than nothing, but c'mon.

And yes, the willingness to fight back is a component in that...but that component is severely limited by an active shooter that doesn't need to take the time to reload.

Again... if it's a reload instead of a pause for target selection, or a quick malfunction drill. And if the shooter is slow enough about the reload.

Point is, it's a trivial window of opportunity, and especially trivial for an unarmed responder to exploit better than an armed one would. And such a trivial advantage is a pretty paltry argument for satisfying constitutional scrutiny.

[TITAN308]

1 second would still be about 15 feet. In a life or death situation, I would at least like to think I'd try to look for any opportunity to fight back. Maybe I would, maybe not. But, for a person that is willing to fight...1 second can change the entire situation.

The whole thing about a high capacity magazine is that you limit the amount of chances people have to fight back. That's why mass shooters like them so much. The whole point is to maximize the amount of shots you can take before reloading.

And mass shootings chose guns over knives, or polearms, or swords.

Thats just technology and civilization for you.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Again... if it's a reload instead of a pause for target selection, or a quick malfunction drill. And if the shooter is slow enough about the reload.

Point is, it's a trivial window of opportunity, and especially trivial for an unarmed responder to exploit better than an armed one would. And such a trivial advantage is a pretty paltry argument for satisfying constitutional scrutiny.

2nd amendment doesn't say anything about high capacity magazines.

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And mass shootings chose guns over knives, or polearms, or swords.

Thats just technology and civilization for you.

Which is exactly why the debate is what it is. If the guy in the gay bar used a knife to kill 50 and injure 50 more...we'd be talking about knives.

I think that the basic fact that the AR-15 is pretty much the official weapon of The Mass Shooting Olympic Games makes it worth at least talking about.