What happened to the shadowstepping / clone Sub rogue of early alpha?

[secondratetech]

From a casual perspective that would have saved the class (re playerbase size)

[elfporn]

From a casual perspective that would have saved the class (re playerbase size)

Not sure what you're asking?

The shadow clone and shadowstepping style are still there (Akaari's Soul and Shadowstrike).

[Darkguyver2020]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4401?page=3#42

[secondratetech]

link

That's too bad

[Squirl]

That's too bad

Did you even play it? It was boring as hell. All you needed to track was Totally-Not-Rupture (Nightblade) and the entire rotation was: build to 5 CP > finisher > Shadowstrike > repeat. Even the bugged HaT rotation was more interesting than that.

The current (live) iteration of Sub is my favorite spec to ever exist in the entire game. I wish they would have just kept it the same going into Legion and slightly changed the playstyle each tier with new trinkets and tier bonuses, like they did in WoD.

At least what we're (most likely) getting come Legion isn't awful. There's a decent amount of stuff to track and pay attention to and optimize. It's not perfect or anything, but it's 100x better than their first iteration.

[Deleted]

Did you even play it? It was boring as hell. All you needed to track was Totally-Not-Rupture (Nightblade) and the entire rotation was: build to 5 CP > finisher > Shadowstrike > repeat. Even the bugged HaT rotation was more interesting than that.

The current iteration of Sub is my favorite spec to ever exist in the entire game. I wish they would have just kept it the same and slightly changed the playstyle each tier with new trinkets and tier bonuses, like they did in WoD.

At least what we're (most likely) getting come Legion isn't awful. There's a decent amount of stuff to track and pay attention to and optimize. It's not perfect or anything, but it's 100x better than their first iteration.

I don't know the former betabuild but i don't like the ptr version more than live.

sub turned into a rng bitch. If you get no stacks for shadowdance with finisher proccing the passive byebye dps.

[kalaratic]

I don't know the former betabuild but i don't like the ptr version more than live.

sub turned into a rng bitch. If you get no stacks for shadowdance with finisher proccing the passive byebye dps.

while legion sub on the beta is worse than live, the first iteration of it was probably the worst thing that ever came out of the class design team. here's a little look at it

[elfporn]

I don't know the former betabuild but i don't like the ptr version more than live.

sub turned into a rng bitch. If you get no stacks for shadowdance with finisher proccing the passive byebye dps.

what are you talking about? the merits of the design aside, sub is far from being an "rng bitch" (look to outlaw here).

Part of the skill needed to play the new design well is planning and using shadow dance charges correctly. This was gone over extensively something like 20 pages back on the sub thread. It's not difficult to hold one charge in reserve and use them as they proc and come off CD.

I certainly like it more than live. I am exceedingly happy to see blade twisting go away.

[Deleted]

what are you talking about? the merits of the design aside, sub is far from being an "rng bitch" (look to outlaw here).

Part of the skill needed to play the new design well is planning and using shadow dance charges correctly. This was gone over extensively something like 20 pages back on the sub thread. It's not difficult to hold one charge in reserve and use them as they proc and come off CD.

I certainly like it more than live. I am exceedingly happy to see blade twisting go away.

Outlaw is obviously worse as you have even less control on the dice roll (personally they should've made it so you have to press again to select one while it rotates) but shadowdance isn't rng free either because you do hope on stack procs and when you don't get them you lose dps. You can of course save dance stacks for burst on demand but the procs will determine your overall dps. So your performance will vary on your rng luck on longer fights.

[elfporn]

Outlaw is obviously worse as you have even less control on the dice roll (personally they should've made it so you have to press again to select one while it rotates) but shadowdance isn't rng free either because you do hope on stack procs and when you don't get them you lose dps. You can of course save dance stacks for burst on demand but the procs will determine your overall dps. So your performance will vary on your rng luck on longer fights.

Every single class and spec going all the way back to classic has had some element of RNG in its rotation/toolkit.

There are varying degrees of how impactful this rng can be, RtB, and blade twisting are two of the extremes. Mostly it's a benevolent addition to the rotation like dispatch is now, or Main Gauche if you want to stick with combat/outlaw.

The point being that luck and random procs has been a part of the game since the beginning and will always significantly impact your dps; Whether it's lucky crits or soulcap procs, or its deepening shadows procs, RNG will never go away.

That said, shadow dance has 3 charges and is a timer based cooldown. All deepening shadows does is add to your dps potential, it has zero negative impact on your dps, if you get lucky with procs, that's no different than getting a lucky string of crits. It's part of the game.

Blade twisting is a personal extreme dislike, it shortens rupture so much that it's a constant rotational disruption.

RtB is bad rng only because of how unbalanced all the procs are. Fix that and it's fine.

[Deleted]

There is a difference in how big a factor rng is. For example elemental shaman was *the* rng machine known to perform insane burst heavily when blessed by the rng gods. Assa you could get lucky with dispatch but it didn't make such a huge difference and we are here talking about sub and sub was stable.

Regarding crit rng, rng is deminished by large numbers, using 4x ambush in a dance your chance to get 4 crits / 4 noncrits is rather low. White hit rng doesn't even register because you do so many of them it's very stable. A bit rng makes it more interesting but you don't want it to dominate the difference between player performance.

[elfporn]

There is a difference in how big a factor rng is. For example elemental shaman was *the* rng machine known to perform insane burst heavily when blessed by the rng gods. Assa you could get lucky with dispatch but it didn't make such a huge difference and we are here talking about sub and sub was stable.

Regarding crit rng, rng is deminished by large numbers, using 4x ambush in a dance your chance to get 4 crits / 4 noncrits is rather low. White hit rng doesn't even register because you do so many of them it's very stable. A bit rng makes it more interesting but you don't want it to dominate the difference between player performance.

Sub wasnt stable at all, blade twisting is one of the worst rng abilities they ever implemented. Id like to mention soulcap as well because we are immensely dependent on soulcap procs for dps.

Deepening shadow is a %chance proc with zero negative drawback. Its scalar as well. The more finishers, the more procs, more dps. It is very easy to manage sd stacks so you dont cap out on them.

[kalaratic]

well to be fair even now sub has pretty big rng with the soul cap. there's only so much skill that can push u into 90 percentile and the rest is just who has better cap rng

[Deleted]

Sub wasnt stable at all, blade twisting is one of the worst rng abilities they ever implemented. Id like to mention soulcap as well because we are immensely dependent on soulcap procs for dps.

Deepening shadow is a %chance proc with zero negative drawback. Its scalar as well. The more finishers, the more procs, more dps. It is very easy to manage sd stacks so you dont cap out on them.

You shouldn't equal gear ability rng with the spec itself. Spec or gear doesn't matter for raiders in practical application but that doesn't change that the spec itself was stable and could return to it with legion gear removing old gear with rng elements.


Also "Deepening shadow is a %chance proc with zero negative drawback." What you describe a bonus can also be considered a baseline and everytime it doesn't proc for a longer time you underperform.

[elfporn]

You shouldn't equal gear ability rng with the spec itself. Spec or gear doesn't matter for raiders in practical application but that doesn't change that the spec itself was stable and could return to it with legion gear removing old gear with rng elements.


Also "Deepening shadow is a %chance proc with zero negative drawback." What you describe a bonus can also be considered a baseline and everytime it doesn't proc for a longer time you underperform.

Soulcap was worth mentioning because it caused the largest rng gap the game has ever seen, along with mages' doom nova.

My point has been that you're looking for no rng, which leads to a boring spec(think combat daggers). The very reason rng is added is to add that random element to the rotation, to help break up monotony.

Deepening shadows is that extra "oh cool" type of rng - it's not the "oh shit" kind like blade twisting was.

You should never have problems managing stacks, and keeping them used as they come in.

[Deleted]

while legion sub on the beta is worse than live, the first iteration of it was probably the worst thing that ever came out of the class design team. here's a little look at it

that video sums up the modern WoW development team. they think about "fantasy", some idea that sounds super duper cool on paper, without thinking through any of the implications or what it might look like in the game and whether players would be happy with the necessary compromises. that video + the blue response is all you need to see to know wow is essentially doomed