1. #3161
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstalker View Post
    Your baseline damage is crap and you waste 20+45 rage to outdamage execute when dmg tuning isn't even finalized.
    I know. I was taking into account dmg we have right now. And right now for little more rage, u can have a rotation without touching execute even once for almost the same about of dps. My point is, how funny is to have options for once, compared to Arms on live where u have close to none.

  2. #3162
    Deleted
    MS does 350%, so FR is 175% physical for 15 rage, which equals 11.7%/rage.

    Execute does 700% for 40 rage which is 17.5%/rage.

    No, Focused Rage does not replace Execute by a long shot. It's terrible compared to In for the Kill when it comes to PvE.

  3. #3163
    Quote Originally Posted by Erica View Post
    MS does 350%, so FR is 175% physical for 15 rage, which equals 11.7%/rage.

    Execute does 700% for 40 rage which is 17.5%/rage.

    No, Focused Rage does not replace Execute by a long shot. It's terrible compared to In for the Kill when it comes to PvE.
    Do you think that In For the Kill will be viable in Mythic+ dungeons? I know everyone is overgeared right now but I have a hard enough time sniping Execute in Mythic dungeons right now without trying to fit an entire global before it.

  4. #3164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kainslife View Post
    Do you think that In For the Kill will be viable in Mythic+ dungeons? I know everyone is overgeared right now but I have a hard enough time sniping Execute in Mythic dungeons right now without trying to fit an entire global before it.
    Even if you only get to take advantage of it occasionally it will still be the best choice, because the other two are just plain bad. But I'm not gonna argue about it, because In for the Kill is the only thing keeping the execute phase somewhat playable at the moment.

  5. #3165
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Erica View Post
    MS does 350%, so FR is 175% physical for 15 rage, which equals 11.7%/rage.

    Execute does 700% for 40 rage which is 17.5%/rage.

    No, Focused Rage does not replace Execute by a long shot. It's terrible compared to In for the Kill when it comes to PvE.
    Yes it does not replace Execute no doubt about it. Although you are missing some finer points that were outlined here previously.

    FR shines with Shattered Defences & especially DC + AM + Zakajz combo.
    You will have a total of ~3 gdc's worth of free, 100% critical and *1.2 MS + Slam during which you'll stack 3FR again for next MS roughly every 35 seconds.

    And please take note that PTR experience is flawed in and out of itself and cannot really support any Legion theorycrafting argument.

    I obviously don't know just how good IftK currently is in a raid scenario but I honestly can't see how +20 rage every 6 seconds sub 20% can be as good as it is described by Artunias and Archi.
    Last edited by mmoc14553d1068; 2016-06-17 at 04:11 PM.

  6. #3166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kainslife View Post
    Do you think that In For the Kill will be viable in Mythic+ dungeons? I know everyone is overgeared right now but I have a hard enough time sniping Execute in Mythic dungeons right now without trying to fit an entire global before it.
    Yes, I think it will be viable. Against larger packs the rage is better used on WW which doesn't require sniping and if you're fighting 1-2 mobs they'll probably live long enough to Execute. Also Mortal Combo is mediocre and FR is pretty bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arqentum View Post
    Yes it does not replace Execute no doubt about it. Although you are missing some finer points that were outlined here previously.

    FR shines with Shattered Defences & especially DC + AM + Zakajz combo.
    You will have a total of ~3 gdc's worth of free and 100% critical Slam + MS during which you'll stack 3FR again for next MS roughly every 35 seconds.
    I have looked at that, FR is reasonably rage-efficient when used with SD but it's not nearly enough to make the talent worth taking. Don't have the numbers on hand right now.

    I obviously don't know just how good IftK currently is in raid scenario but I honestly can't see how +20 rage every ~5 seconds sub 20% can be as good as it is described by Artunias and Archi.
    IftK is a net gain of 40 rage every MS, it doesn't matter that MS also happens to spend 20. You can think of the talent as giving you a free full 40-rage execute every time you MS below 20% I guess.
    Last edited by mmocd2ab285f58; 2016-06-17 at 04:10 PM.

  7. #3167
    Quote Originally Posted by Arqentum View Post
    Yes it does not replace Execute no doubt about it. Although you are missing some finer points that were outlined here previously.

    FR shines with Shattered Defences & especially DC + AM + Zakajz combo.
    You will have a total of ~3 gdc's worth of free, 100% critical and *1.2 MS + Slam during which you'll stack 3FR again for next MS roughly every 35 seconds.

    And please take note that PTR experience is flawed in and out of itself and cannot really support any Legion theorycrafting argument.

    I obviously don't know just how good IftK currently is in a raid scenario but I honestly can't see how +20 rage every 6 seconds sub 20% can be as good as it is described by Artunias and Archi.
    Don't forget to spam Hamstring as well. The damage it does is very low, but it does have a rage cost, and it does count towards AM. It's free reduction that deals a minor amount of damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, In for the Kill gives 40rage, but MS still spend the normal 20rage, meaning a net 20+ rage.
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  8. #3168
    What about Execute reducing the rage-cost for the next X non-execute-styles by Y %? not necessarly 100% and not reducing effectiveness of tactician.

  9. #3169
    Quote Originally Posted by Artunias View Post
    Even if you only get to take advantage of it occasionally it will still be the best choice, because the other two are just plain bad. But I'm not gonna argue about it, because In for the Kill is the only thing keeping the execute phase somewhat playable at the moment.
    Cool thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erica View Post
    Yes, I think it will be viable. Against larger packs the rage is better used on WW which doesn't require sniping and if you're fighting 1-2 mobs they'll probably live long enough to Execute. Also Mortal Combo is mediocre and FR is pretty bad.
    And thanks to you as well! Do you happen to know when WW surpasses Execute? I think based on my numbers last night it looked like 3-4 mobs is when it switches over?

  10. #3170
    Will the T19 4p stay the same? Tactician proc from 20% chance on crits of WW/Exe/Slam.

  11. #3171
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstalker View Post
    Will the T19 4p stay the same? Tactician proc from 20% chance on crits of WW/Exe/Slam.
    I seriously doubt it, that set bonus is a long ways off though since the raid that drops it won't be released until a few months after Legion ships. It's probably not much of a priority for them to update.

  12. #3172
    They'll change it, but I doubt it's a high prio right now.
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  13. #3173
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kainslife View Post
    And thanks to you as well! Do you happen to know when WW surpasses Execute? I think based on my numbers last night it looked like 3-4 mobs is when it switches over?
    With Trauma I think it looks a lot like you'dbe WWing against two targets as well. I might have overlooked something, but:

    Assume 25% crit, 50% damage bonus on CS.

    WW does 240% damage. Trauma increases it by 20%, trait by 15%, WotfK refunds 2 rage if any of its three hits crit. That means WW does 240%*(1+20%)*(1+15%) = 331.2%, 414% with crits. Average rage cost of 25 - 2*(1-(1-25%)^3)*(number of targets). That gives us 17.4%/rage for one target, 36.5%/rage for two, 57.7%/rage for three, 81.3% for t.

    Execute does 700%, gets +15% crit from trait. That means an average damage with crits of 700%*(1+40%) = 980% at a cost of 40 rage meaning 24.5%/rage which is much worse than WW against two targets.

    If you add a 50% CS debuff on the main target WW increases to 26.0%/rage for one, 45.6% for two, 67.3% for three and 91.4% for four while Execute increases to 36.8%. However, the first Execute after CS gets buffed by Precise Strikes and Shattered Defenses which makes it much more worthwhile at 114.8%/rage.

    So as far as I can tell the rule is basically: Against 2+ targets use one Execute after CS, then just spam WW instead of Execute. Against 5+ targets, skip the Shattered Defenses Execute as well.



    Please correct me if I missed something or made a mistake.

    e: Corrected error in WW+CS numbers, took into account all three WW hits being able to proc WotfK.
    Last edited by mmocd2ab285f58; 2016-06-17 at 07:43 PM.

  14. #3174
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    I'm sure this has been asked a bunch of times already but did they finally make Heroic Leap not suck anymore? I noticed that I can actually leap over objects and gaps now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artunias View Post
    Rotational complaints are centered around rng with CS procs and the execute rotation. You don't get execute phase on the dummy and the rng might not have been too bad depending on how long you hit the dummy. But those would be the two things to consider when thinking about people being upset
    Meh, even with the execute rotation I don't think it's too bad, especially with the In For The Kill talent. I played around on the target dummy in Icecrown and was playing with execute and still didn't really mind the rotation. I could see why people would not like it but it doesn't really bother me personally.
    Last edited by Seramore; 2016-06-17 at 06:36 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz
    MMO champion for example used to be the center of WoW theorycrafting

  15. #3175
    Quote Originally Posted by Erica View Post
    With Trauma I think it looks a lot like you'd WWing against two targets as well. I might have overlooked something, but:

    Assume 25% crit, 50% damage bonus on CS.

    WW does 240% damage. Trauma increases it by 20%, trait by 15%, WotfK refunds 2 rage for each target you crit. That means WW does 240%*(1+20%)*(1+15%) = 331.2%, 414% with crits. Average rage cost of 25 - 2*25%*(number of targets). That gives you 16.9%/rage for one target, 34.5%/rage for two, 52.9%/rage for three.

    Execute does 700%, gets +15% crit from trait. That means an average damage with crits of 700%*(1+40%) = 980% at a cost of 40 rage meaning 24.5%/rage which is much worse than WW against two targets.

    If you add a 50% CS debuff on the main target WW increases to 25.3%/rage for one, 43.1% for two, 61.7% for three, while Execute only increases to 36.8%. However, the first Execute after CS gets buffed by Precise Strikes and Shattered Defenses which makes it much more worthwhile at 70.3%/rage.

    So as far as I can tell the rule is basically: If you're fighting 2-3 targets, use one Execute after CS, then just spam WW instead of Execute. Against 4+ targets, skip the Shattered Defenses Execute as well.

    Some talents affect this.

    Sweeping Strikes doubles the value of Execute (assuming it's working properly now) and it'll be worth using against two targets without CS and three with CS up, and against up to seven targets with Shattered Defenses+Precise Strikes up.

    With Fervor for Battle it's not worth using a Shattered Defenses Execute against three targets.

    Opportunity Strikes increases the value of WW but I can't be bothered to do the numbers on it.

    Also, it's important to remember that this is just raw damage/rage and the real world is often a lot more subtle. Execute is obviously better at killing priority targets which might be more helpful than adding AOE damage. Execute also spends rage faster which means higher burst DPS and the ability to spend your rage faster which might end up being more efficient than having CS/some other burst window expire with leftover rage.

    Please correct me if I missed something or made a mistake.
    Great information, thank you!

  16. #3176
    Worth noting that WW hits 3 times per target, if any of those three hits crit you'll get the rage from WotfK, but it can only proc once per target.
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  17. #3177
    Quote Originally Posted by Arqentum View Post
    I obviously don't know just how good IftK currently is in a raid scenario but I honestly can't see how +20 rage every 6 seconds sub 20% can be as good as it is described by Artunias and Archi.
    Because Focused Rage eats rage that can be spent elsewhere, Mortal Combo doesn't synergize with anything, and the Execute phase starves without In for the Kill (or even with TBH). You also aren't using Mortal Strike every 6s, its CD is compressed by Haste and Tactician can reset it independently of Colossus Smash.

  18. #3178
    I see a lot of love here for Overpower (and I want to love it too) but at ilvl 700 on the PTR I had much more consistent returns using Dauntless on the training dummy. Sure, the game play wasn't as interesting just spamming Slam in-between my MS/CS etc, but the sustained DPS was higher in my case.

    I spent a good few hours testing last night and this is the best talent-setup I could arrive at for single target, dummy test @ ilvl 700. No HfC trinkets, no set bonuses and gear set aimed at Haste/Mastery:

    http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/arms/MnI0

    I did find though that Trauma and Deadly Calm were very close in my testing.

  19. #3179
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Because Focused Rage eats rage that can be spent elsewhere, Mortal Combo doesn't synergize with anything, and the Execute phase starves without In for the Kill (or even with TBH). You also aren't using Mortal Strike every 6s, its CD is compressed by Haste and Tactician can reset it independently of Colossus Smash.
    So that how it is. I finally see it now.

    Thanks Archi.

  20. #3180
    Quote Originally Posted by Cortic View Post
    I see a lot of love here for Overpower (and I want to love it too) but at ilvl 700 on the PTR I had much more consistent returns using Dauntless on the training dummy. Sure, the game play wasn't as interesting just spamming Slam in-between my MS/CS etc, but the sustained DPS was higher in my case.

    I spent a good few hours testing last night and this is the best talent-setup I could arrive at for single target, dummy test @ ilvl 700. No HfC trinkets, no set bonuses and gear set aimed at Haste/Mastery:

    http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/arms/MnI0

    I did find though that Trauma and Deadly Calm were very close in my testing.
    Honestly, at this point RNG plays a huge factor in the DPS. Arms seems to be much more reliant on it's artifact traits, and maybe the Mortal Strike legendary, than Fury is. I did several tests and sometimes Dauntless came out ahead, sometimes Overpower. Both have an effect on RNG, since Dauntless screws up Tactician, and Overpower is a proc. I was, however, using the 680 premade, and since it has, like, 4% haste, I was unable to generate enough rage to warrant using FoB and had to settle for Rend.

    Also on another note, Archimtiros said that Tactician can reset Mortal Strike independently of Colossus Smash. Is that actually true? Since the tooltip states that it resets them both.

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