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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    As if there needed to be any more indication of Politi"fact"'s bias.
    Hell even taking it as fact, at a rape rate that high, The US would dwarf war torn Kongo.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    Rape is seen as worse then murder in a lot of cases. Which is incredibly backwards when you think about it for half a second.
    Yeah, I was thinking of serial murdering to genocide, but then when it comes to crimes one can victimize another single person with, rape is usually regarded as the worst.

    And I sort of get why it's considered worse than murder, because in many cases, living with extreme trauma - you may as well be dead, because there won't be much left of you to salvage.

    Of course, different people recover from or deal with different things differently, but let's just say you'll always carry being raped with you.

  3. #263
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    It's how feminists want to make women scared of their shadow. It's a mindset of not solving issues but making them even worse.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by thehollowman View Post
    So you disagree with hard statistics, and instead of engaging in any form of debate, you immediately start yelling "rape culture" at me. Lovely.

    88% of rape accusations being false isn't twisting logic. What other word would you like me to use?.



    Actually, according to our justice system, that's exactly what it means. If you cannot render a "guilty" verdict, you must render a "not-guilty" verdict (barring hung juries). Not guilty means you didn't do it. 88% of rape allegations result in either not guilty or no trial, both cases imply that the accused was not-guilty. Guess what that means? No rape happened!!

    I'll be the first to admit that sometimes our courts mess up and acquit in the face of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, or convict in the face of low evidence. Most studies suggest that these to phenomena roughly cancel each other out. But to say that a huge, unprecedented, and historic percent of rape cases receive false acquittals is just sensationalism.

    Rape either happened or it didn't, and real statistics, not sensational journalism, suggest that it almost perfectly follows guilty/not-guilty verdicts. There's is this concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. If the prosecution fails to meet that threshold, then, in good conscience, you cannot convict.

    At that point the courts will have decided that either a rape did or didn't happen.

    The accused will decide whether the rape did or didn't happen.

    The accuser will decide if the rape was real.

    Of those three opinions, only one gets to decide what really happened. The courts. So, I still stand by the fact that 88% of rape allegations are false. Barring a few outliers of false acquittals.


    I do genuinely feel terrible when the accuser felt that the rape really happened. I hope she gets whatever help she needs and moves on. I think there should be some form of help from the government, because it is hard to go through that process and be told that what you feel is wrong. But it happens. You're not always right, and I get that's hard, especially in something so special like your body and sexuality. But you can't turn around and scream at the courts and the accused, when the law determined you were not raped.


    .
    You clearly don't understand how burden of proof works. If a jury finds you not guilty, that does not mean that you are innocent, only that there was not enough evidence to prove guilt. Because friends, family, mentors, even therapists of the victim might not believe them, they often don't come forward. Implying that a rape didn't happen when it did, that the accuser must be crazy 88% of the time, that is exactly what I mean when I talk about rape culture. Can we at least agree that what I've been talking about for hours now does happen, since it's happening right here in front of everyone?


    https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/05/1...rs-us-military

    I know you won't read it but here is a detailed report about what can happen to victims who come forward.

  5. #265
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    Yeah, and survey response rates were 33%. Do we think people who have been raped are more likely to respond to a survey about rape?
    Also the 33% response rate turn the sample size into 2700 ish - Which then means its 13++ ish women - Which is not statistically significant enough to produce valid results.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huulo View Post
    You clearly don't understand how burden of proof works. If a jury finds you not guilty, that does not mean that you are innocent
    No it literally means that.
    You start innocent, therefore the absence of a guilty verdict necessitates you being innocent.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    Yeah, and survey response rates were 33%. Do we think people who have been raped are more likely to respond to a survey about rape?
    If you'd taken statistics you would now that the size of the sample relative to the size of the population does not affect it's accuracy. Once again, you're ignoring the fact that I'm not talking just about rape convictions, but also about rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported.

  7. #267
    UNREPORTED rapes everyone. We're delving into that eyeroll-inducing, disingenuous territory again.

  8. #268
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Huulo View Post


    https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/05/1...rs-us-military

    I know you won't read it but here is a detailed report about what can happen to victims who come forward.
    Do one even have to explain how this cant possibly be seen as representative of anything?

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Huulo View Post
    You clearly don't understand how burden of proof works. If a jury finds you not guilty, that does not mean that you are innocent, only that there was not enough evidence to prove guilt. Because friends, family, mentors, even therapists of the victim might not believe them, they often don't come forward. Implying that a rape didn't happen when it did, that the accuser must be crazy 88% of the time, that is exactly what I mean when I talk about rape culture. Can we at least agree that what I've been talking about for hours now does happen, since it's happening right here in front of everyone?
    Oh, someone who doesn't understand innocent until proven guilty is trying to lecture others.

    How riveting.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huulo View Post
    If you'd taken statistics you would now that the size of the sample relative to the size of the population does not affect it's accuracy.
    What? - This is literally the furthest from the truth possible.
    Once again, you're ignoring the fact that I'm not talking just about rape convictions, but also about rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported.
    This has no relation to what you replied too.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Yeah, I was thinking of serial murdering to genocide, but then when it comes to crimes one can victimize another single person with, rape is usually regarded as the worst.

    And I sort of get why it's considered worse than murder, because in many cases, living with extreme trauma - you may as well be dead, because there won't be much left of you to salvage.

    Of course, different people recover from or deal with different things differently, but let's just say you'll always carry being raped with you.
    Trauma is what you make of it, in most cases. In our culture of hyper-victimization, the trauma is many times worse than it would be in a culture that promotes having the strength to simply overcome adversity.

    Rape itself - in most cases - is not nearly as traumatic as many, many other crimes. It's basically just sex that you don't want to have. Really, it's far from the worst that can happen to you. But we've made it into something different - something much worse than it actually is. That's the real 'rape culture' - this perpetuation of self-victimization and appeals to authority.

    Of course there are many different types of rape. Some are worse than others. Violent, damaging rape is much worse than simple forced penetration. We treat them the same, we treat all of them as though they're the worst thing that could happen. It's insulting to victims of the most destructive rapes, and it's a destructive ideology itself.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Huulo View Post
    If you'd taken statistics you would now that the size of the sample relative to the size of the population does not affect it's accuracy. Once again, you're ignoring the fact that I'm not talking just about rape convictions, but also about rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported.
    ...

    Both critics and supporters of the CDC’s methodology note the striking disparity between CDC figures and the Justice Department’s crime statistics based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (which includes crimes unreported to the police). While the CDC estimates that nearly 2 million adult American women were raped in 2011 and nearly 6.7 million suffered some other form of sexual violence, the NCVS estimate for that year was 238,000 rapes and sexual assaults.
    Actual figures from the NCVS, including unreported crimes, versus CDC's estimation from a sample size of a single town in an American back-water.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huulo View Post
    If you'd taken statistics you would now that the size of the sample relative to the size of the population does not affect it's accuracy. Once again, you're ignoring the fact that I'm not talking just about rape convictions, but also about rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported.
    If you read my post, you would perhaps have realized that what you're saying here has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

    My argument is that the researchers are getting selective responses to their survey because people who are raped are more likely to engage themselves in a survey about rape than people who have not been raped - who see such a survey as not relevant to them.

  14. #274
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Oh, someone who doesn't understand innocent until proven guilty is trying to lecture others.

    How riveting.
    Innocent until accused of rape is totally a thing. Probably.

  15. #275
    It's imaginary
    Bleh

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Innocent until accused of rape is totally a thing. Probably.
    A concerning amount of people wish it were that way, or are supporting those who wish it were that way.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    Rape itself - in most cases - is not nearly as traumatic as many, many other crimes. It's basically just sex that you don't want to have. Really, it's far from the worst that can happen to you. But we've made it into something different - something much worse than it actually is. That's the real 'rape culture' - this perpetuation of self-victimization and appeals to authority.

    Of course there are many different types of rape. Some are worse than others. Violent, damaging rape is much worse than simple forced penetration. We treat them the same, we treat all of them as though they're the worst thing that could happen. It's insulting to victims of the most destructive rapes, and it's a destructive ideology itself.
    And ultimately the best way to move on (most studies suggest) involves just that - Declaring it to be bad sex, lumping it together with all other sex one have had, and then moving on.
    Whereas treating it as the most serious of horribleness typically results in the victim not moving on.

  18. #278
    Back to the point, there are certainly problems with how things are handled, but they're not so much exclusive to rape as much as they are to crime in general.

    I concede that it's pretty sad that a lot of people worship celebrities so greatly that they are willing to overlook or ignore things like that in order to preserve the good image they have of, say, a Bill Cosby, in their minds.

    But that's not a rape-thing. If he had murdered someone, there would still be the same people ignoring it because they put him on such a pedestal that any form of evidence that he might have committed a crime is considered blasphemy, shut out and filtered.

    It's an unhealthy obsession with celebrities, yes.

    As for families? There will always be family members of criminals that will defend them to their very last breath. It happens with serial murderers, rapists, thieves, thugs, any type of criminal.

    Not all family members do it, but those that do, will not budge - ever. They see that criminal family member as a part of their pack, their own, and he is prioritized above anyone else since he's in the inner circle of that family, whereas the victim and the justice system are generally outside it, and thus seen as secondary or tertiary.
    Last edited by Yarathir; 2016-06-17 at 08:10 PM.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    And ultimately the best way to move on (most studies suggest) involves just that - Declaring it to be bad sex, lumping it together with all other sex one have had, and then moving on.
    Whereas treating it as the most serious of horribleness typically results in the victim not moving on.
    Yep. That's how you recover. Instead, we blow it up into this huge, horrific problem and cause way more damage. But not many will make this argument. People are too scared, and people don't understand.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Back to the point, there are certainly problems with how things are handled, but they're not so much exclusive to rape as much as they are to crime in general.

    I concede that it's pretty sad that a lot of people worship celebrities so greatly that they are willing to overlook or ignore things like that in order to preserve the good image they have of, say, a Bill Cosby, in their minds.

    But that's not a rape-thing. If he had murdered someone, there would still be the same people ignoring it because they put him on such a pedestal that any form of evidence that he might have committed a crime is considered blasphemy, shut out and filtered.

    It's an unhealthy obsession with celebrities, yes.

    As for families? There will always be family members of criminals that will defend them to their very last breath. It happens with serial murderers, rapists, thieves, thugs, any type of criminal.

    Not all family members do it, but those that do, will not budge - ever. They see that criminal family member as a part of their pack, their own, and he is prioritized above anyone else since he's in the inner circle of that family, whereas the victim and the justice system are generally outside it, and thus seen as secondary or tertiary.
    Good point, we clearly live in a murder culture, because many people doubt O.J Simpson guilt - 'it's about the willingness of people to dismiss or downplay cases of rape murder when they occur. '

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