Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[drooish]

Sure - every one has different levels of haste, crit, etc - but the reality is that every one has about the same amount of secondary stats, and the variance in value across secondary stats from an overall perspective is not all that great. If anything, Druids likely gain less total value from secondaries than most classes because of the weakness of our mastery in raid environment.

Yes, comparing spells by classes in a vacuum is useless, but when you see situations like our single target being behind every other class, our AoE being behind every other class, and our signature HoT being weaker throughput than things like Riptide and Renewing Mist, it develops an overall trend. At any rate, we will see what raid testing results tomorrow bring us.

What are you talking about, the difference in value for haste for every class is huge. You can't just say "lol ignore that pls so data is useful."

[Tiberria]

What are you talking about, the difference in value for haste for every class is huge. You can't just say "lol ignore that pls so data is useful."

And EVERY SPEC has haste on their template gear. What are YOU talking about? Plus, Druids gain more throughput from this haste than any other spec, so if anything these comparisons should favor Druids, since we clearly have weaker gains from Crit+Mastery+Versatility than almost everyone.

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In what way are we scaling worse with crit than everyone else, crit scales pretty much as well as haste for resto druids, what previously caused us to scale poorly with crit has been removed, and we can not reliably count the reduced gcd as valuable again due to heavy mana restrictions.
Living seed never really scaled with crit in the past, because only HT (and perhaps SM, not sure if this is legion only.) because the only time it mattered was regrowth, which already had 100% crit. Now crit increases our throughput by 93% of haste, while also increasing Direct heals and tranq, unlike haste.

The ability to glyph Regrowth to 100% never had any significant impact on how well we scaled with Crit to begin with. Regrowth has just never been a significant enough portion of our toolkit/throughput for that one thing not scaling with Crit to have any relevant impact on stat priorities. I mean what percent of your typical healing breakdown on live is the Regrowth direct heal? 2-3%? That is largely irrelevant. In comparison, Tranq is like 10-20% of our healing on live, and doesn't scale with Haste at all, and that doesn't prevent Haste from clearly pulling ahead of other stats.

The reason we scale poorly with haste and have always scaled poorly with haste is we don't have meaningful mechanics that interact with haste like Resurgence, Infusion of Light, etc, etc. Living Seed is supposed to be our version of the "make Crit relevant" mechanic, but it's historically been a terrible mechanic that doesn't add much of any effective value. It's usually <1% of my healing on live. Even with the full artifact trait and it being up to 80% instead of 50%, I still don't see it having much relevance. If Living Seed was relevant, Crit would clearly be ahead of Multistrike on live.

[drooish]

Plus, Druids gain more throughput from this haste than any other spec, so if anything these comparisons should favor Druids, since we clearly have weaker gains from Crit+Mastery+Versatility than almost everyone.

Rofl, lets just ignore all passives and other spells right. Screw mastery while were at it. Nevermind that having or not having other spells increases/decrease the value of a spell and how much it is used and what it is used for. I mean anything to make that table useful. I mean Rejuv = Renew cause druid like haste moar. All the crazy amount of variables are just in the way. poo on them for have a major impact.

You are also completely out of your mind if you think we have weaker secondaries than everyone else. That is completely uninformed. People like you who are constantly vying for buffs are the reason people here still think Mastery isn't strong.

[Tiberria]

I also don't really get the argument that Crit scales almost as good as Haste in Legion. 1% Crit is 8% more expensive than 1% Haste. Haste directly buffs every component of our healing except HT/RG/SM (which are trivial portions of our throughput), and Tranq directly by 1%. Plus, it then double dips with Rejuv and lets you get X% more Rejuv casts off, both through reducing the Rejuv GCD, plus the cast times/GCDs of everything else we have to cast giving more total GCD time. Yes, Tranq overhealing so much that not having Haste make it heal more is less of an argument in Legion, but that's offset by the fact that Tranq is also probably like half as much of our output as it is on live.

I also get the argument that mana is a constraint, and just because you have the time to cast X% more Rejuvs, you can't necessarily afford it. However, in real damage patterns, there are very often burst healing phases and slow healing phases, and the ability to squeeze more throughput into those burst healing phases at the expense of spending less mana in slow healing phases has a lot of value that can't really be mathed out. The extra casts have a lot more than a 0 value. Plus, Haste is ahead of Crit even if you assign it a 0 value.

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Rofl, lets just ignore all passives and other spells right. Screw mastery while were at it. I mean anything to make that table useful. I mean Rejuv = renew cause druid like haste moar. All the crazy amount of variables are just in the way. poo on them for have a major impact.

No, Rejuv is intended to be > Renew because Renew isn't even something Holy Priests are supposed to be casting in Legion. Do you not notice that I excluded everyone's mastery, because everyone should get a relatively comparable gain from it. Not only that, but it's obvious that in a raid setting - the Druid mastery is the weakest of all healing masteries after the talent changes/mastery nerf, so not counting it actually makes us look better than we really are.

At any rate, where are your comparisons and data points to refute what I'm saying? There's no point in whining about something if you're not able to depict it better.

[drooish]

No, Rejuv is intended to be > Renew because Renew isn't even something Holy Priests are supposed to be casting in Legion. Do you not notice that I excluded everyone's mastery, because everyone should get a relatively comparable gain from it. Not only that, but it's obvious that in a raid setting - the Druid mastery is the weakest of all healing masteries after the talent changes/mastery nerf, so not counting it actually makes us look better than we really are.

At any rate, where are your comparisons and data points to refute what I'm saying? There's no point in whining about something if you're not able to depict it better.

My responses are my data points. Like what do you want, me to log on the beta and tell you the difference in scaling for priest vs druid for mastery, haste and crit? Even if I did that, that would be item #1 out of a million in the list of reasons spell vs spell comparisons are just stupid. They are always done by someone who lacks the means to assess real problems. Just an A == B kind of argument that is refutable in a million different ways.

[akris15]

Just curious did anyone manage to get logs for testing today. I tried to get on and pug a group but due to the nature of the servers I didn't even bother. Just curious about the performance after the reshuffle of talents

[Hypasonic]

My guild "tested" both bosses, but the servers went to shit so I couldn't really grasp anything from the testing. No doubt they will re-test these bosses again at some point.

[Tiberria]

Our single target heals in particular really need to be addressed in terms of their tuning. They are about 30% weaker in 7.0 than they are on live, and are absolutely terrible compared to every other classes single target. For example, on beta, my ilvl 745 Druid's Healing Touch is actually weaker than my ilvl 715 Shaman's Healing Wave. That's ridiculous. Yes, I know that single target heals also get mastery stacks, but that really is no reason for them to be unmitigated dog shit; every other healer also gets their full mastery gain on their single target heals as well. That doesn't even mention the fact that Shaman are going to basically have a Tidal Waves stack available for virtually every Healing Wave they cast, bringing its cast time down by 40% on top of just being better across the board.

In particular, for there to be any chance for Abundance to be a compelling talent option, the single target heals need to be better. Right now, it doesn't matter a damn that you have a 100% crit rate on Regrowth; you still aren't going to want to cast it outside of an OOC proc because the throughput of the spell is piss poor relative to the mana cost. It also doesn't matter if you get Healing Touch to a low cast time with Abundance; the HPM of HT is so poor relative to Rejuv that you really don't want to be casting it that much.

[theburned]

The ability to glyph Regrowth to 100% never had any significant impact on how well we scaled with Crit to begin with. Regrowth has just never been a significant enough portion of our toolkit/throughput for that one thing not scaling with Crit to have any relevant impact on stat priorities. I mean what percent of your typical healing breakdown on live is the Regrowth direct heal? 2-3%? That is largely irrelevant. In comparison, Tranq is like 10-20% of our healing on live, and doesn't scale with Haste at all, and that doesn't prevent Haste from clearly pulling ahead of other stats.

The reason we scale poorly with haste and have always scaled poorly with haste is we don't have meaningful mechanics that interact with haste like Resurgence, Infusion of Light, etc, etc. Living Seed is supposed to be our version of the "make Crit relevant" mechanic, but it's historically been a terrible mechanic that doesn't add much of any effective value. It's usually <1% of my healing on live. Even with the full artifact trait and it being up to 80% instead of 50%, I still don't see it having much relevance. If Living Seed was relevant, Crit would clearly be ahead of Multistrike on live.

I disagree, the reason why multistrike was considered better than crit was regrowth, otherwise both these stats were very equal, ofc counting living seed as a non-factor, which it definitely is on other spells than regrowth. Why crit was never better than haste and mastery was because mastery was very cheap, and haste was both cheap and double dipping thus putting it close to int in terms of throughput, now this easily puts crit at 4th stat.

There is close to no reason to ever cast HT (and if you would it would be to refresh LB, which does not make the healing significant.), which means that any value living seed would have would come from regrowth, which can not be increased by crit, and I'd argue that swiftmend is not super often used on tanks, so that doesnt matter either.

I also don't really get the argument that Crit scales almost as good as Haste in Legion. 1% Crit is 8% more expensive than 1% Haste. Haste directly buffs every component of our healing except HT/RG/SM (which are trivial portions of our throughput), and Tranq directly by 1%. Plus, it then double dips with Rejuv and lets you get X% more Rejuv casts off, both through reducing the Rejuv GCD, plus the cast times/GCDs of everything else we have to cast giving more total GCD time. Yes, Tranq overhealing so much that not having Haste make it heal more is less of an argument in Legion, but that's offset by the fact that Tranq is also probably like half as much of our output as it is on live.

I also get the argument that mana is a constraint, and just because you have the time to cast X% more Rejuvs, you can't necessarily afford it. However, in real damage patterns, there are very often burst healing phases and slow healing phases, and the ability to squeeze more throughput into those burst healing phases at the expense of spending less mana in slow healing phases has a lot of value that can't really be mathed out. The extra casts have a lot more than a 0 value. Plus, Haste is ahead of Crit even if you assign it a 0 value.

crit increases 100% of our healing by 1% pr 350 rating
haste increases <90% of our healing by 1% pr 325 rating
325/350 = 92.8%
90% is being nice, cause 10%+ is basically done by tranq + swiftmend alone, HT + nature's essence + certain trinkets + dreamwalker comes as an extra.

Though one of the most important reasons is that regrowth is utterly useless if it doesn't crit, it's balanced around critting, if it doesn't crit, there is a large probability your tank sits there without getting any significant heals, aswell as you just wasting 40k mana.

Side note: In dungeons this is even more of an issue with SotF, you don't notice a 50k Living seed, a 350k one you definitely notice.

the gcd reduction on hots is definitely a good stat during early progress on a fight, because that is a scenario when you need to play like you have infinite mana.
Comparing crit with WoD haste or mastery when both of them had 20% budget on crit. Multistrike had quite some value over crit due to dynamic scaling with 5% + 5% crit baseline but it way above the 3% value multistrike had, pushing the value between them by roughly 7%, on top of the 1-2% from Regrowth. In WoD though crit is only 7.2% more expensive than haste, aswell as increasing all healing, instead of just the HoT components + regrowth (OoC procs)

In the end you have to compare shorter gcds with living seed + a few (1-5% range.)% of throughput + lowering the chance of not critting with regrowth.

[Deleted]

Just curious did anyone manage to get logs for testing today. I tried to get on and pug a group but due to the nature of the servers I didn't even bother. Just curious about the performance after the reshuffle of talents

Saw only one log on the official forums... but wipes are very short (2min30), so hard to tell:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ealing&boss=-2

[tein]

A few logs that I've found (other seem to be not really representative or with hieroglyphs ).
Elerethe: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&fight=23
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...cR348#fight=40
Dragons (in fact, I think it is not the case where we can do our research due to portal):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aQ6yj#fight=26
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...X#type=summary
Too short figths, may be we'll get more info from the next tests...

[Tiberria]

The short logs make it difficult to draw any real conclusions, but the overall results are concerning. In particular, it seems that we are behind Shaman, Holy Priests and Mistweavers in throughput currently. Paladins seem all over the place, sometimes near the top and sometimes at the bottom. That's a big issue, because those are the specs we will be directly competing with for raid viability. You've got 4 healing spots for 6 specs, and if we are doing weaker throughput than all except Disc (and Disc isn't even intended to do 100% of the HPS of pure healers), we don't have a lot of use.

Particularly worrying is the fact that we appear to be getting smashed by Shaman across all logs that I've seen. These short logs are skewed by the healing that raid CDs do, but Tranq heals for a lot more at first tier gear levels than HTT does. If Shaman are ahead of Druids even on <2 minute logs that are skewed by Tranq/HTT usage, they are highly likely to be way ahead on sustained logs. That also doesn't even address the fact that we don't have the type of game changing utility (raid wide health buff or free battle rez every 5 minutes) that Shaman bring, so we really can't be doing less healing than them period to have anywhere near the same value.

[Deleted]

I love HoTs and that resto druid is all about them but how many of them is TOO MANY?

[Deleted]

How good is resto for 5mans in Legion? I was thinking about making a resto druid as an alt for Mythic+ runs but recently I have heard that the class has been nerfed a lot...can someone tell me how are druids currently doing in beta in 5 man environment?

[Isheria]

The short logs make it difficult to draw any real conclusions, but the overall results are concerning. In particular, it seems that we are behind Shaman, Holy Priests and Mistweavers in throughput currently. Paladins seem all over the place, sometimes near the top and sometimes at the bottom. That's a big issue, because those are the specs we will be directly competing with for raid viability. You've got 4 healing spots for 6 specs, and if we are doing weaker throughput than all except Disc (and Disc isn't even intended to do 100% of the HPS of pure healers), we don't have a lot of use.

Particularly worrying is the fact that we appear to be getting smashed by Shaman across all logs that I've seen. These short logs are skewed by the healing that raid CDs do, but Tranq heals for a lot more at first tier gear levels than HTT does. If Shaman are ahead of Druids even on <2 minute logs that are skewed by Tranq/HTT usage, they are highly likely to be way ahead on sustained logs. That also doesn't even address the fact that we don't have the type of game changing utility (raid wide health buff or free battle rez every 5 minutes) that Shaman bring, so we really can't be doing less healing than them period to have anywhere near the same value.

The only reason that you see shamans "smashing" druids is because they spec into every single cd possible and using them all at the same time since the pull isn't longer than 1-2 mins. I have witnessed quite a few shamans that use ascendance, healing tide, ancestral guidance, cloudburst all at the same time during yesterday's testing. No conclusions can be actually made by doing stuff like that.

[Deleted]

you know guys, reading the past few pages, I can't help but laugh. I was following the mistweaver thread for a while (stopped like 2 weeks ago) and they were saying the exact same thing. The fact that they have the lowest HPS and HPM output and that they won't get a spot in the raid.

[Tiberria]

you know guys, reading the past few pages, I can't help but laugh. I was following the mistweaver thread for a while (stopped like 2 weeks ago) and they were saying the exact same thing. The fact that they have the lowest HPS and HPM output and that they won't get a spot in the raid.

And you know what? Mistweavers were actually directly and significantly buffed as a result of having subpar throughput, plus several of the specs ahead of them were significantly nerfed. Now Druids are in exactly that same situation and have every right to express concerns about it.

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The only reason that you see shamans "smashing" druids is because they spec into every single cd possible and using them all at the same time since the pull isn't longer than 1-2 mins. I have witnessed quite a few shamans that use ascendance, healing tide, ancestral guidance, cloudburst all at the same time during yesterday's testing. No conclusions can be actually made by doing stuff like that.

I mean, Druids can do exactly the same thing by speccing Incarnation and ensuring that Tranq, Incarnation and Essence of G'Hanir are all used within that 1-2 minute minute. I don't see it as much of an excuse.

[fallenangel-succ]

This is more relevant for mythic+, but speccing Abundance turns Regrowth into a pretty efficient flash heal variant, clocking at 770% for the direct heal alone if you count living seed (assuming 0.8 from artifact traits).
Couple that with SotF and you get a heal that surpasses HW:Serenity on a 30s cd. In magic christmas land, you can add in Power of the Archdruid for hilarity.

[theburned]

The short logs make it difficult to draw any real conclusions, but the overall results are concerning. In particular, it seems that we are behind Shaman, Holy Priests and Mistweavers in throughput currently. Paladins seem all over the place, sometimes near the top and sometimes at the bottom. That's a big issue, because those are the specs we will be directly competing with for raid viability. You've got 4 healing spots for 6 specs, and if we are doing weaker throughput than all except Disc (and Disc isn't even intended to do 100% of the HPS of pure healers), we don't have a lot of use.

Particularly worrying is the fact that we appear to be getting smashed by Shaman across all logs that I've seen. These short logs are skewed by the healing that raid CDs do, but Tranq heals for a lot more at first tier gear levels than HTT does. If Shaman are ahead of Druids even on <2 minute logs that are skewed by Tranq/HTT usage, they are highly likely to be way ahead on sustained logs. That also doesn't even address the fact that we don't have the type of game changing utility (raid wide health buff or free battle rez every 5 minutes) that Shaman bring, so we really can't be doing less healing than them period to have anywhere near the same value.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1854&wipes=1

while this is not particularly good tries, there's quite a few 2 min logs, the paladin mostly being able to beat me, also take into consideration that I have 19 traits, while I believe he hasnt even started questing. Which leads me to believe paladins are also in a good spot. While I probably played in a way to be way more mana conservative, aswell as tranq never really hitting more than 10 people, if even that.

[Nevcairiel]

take into consideration that I have 19 traits, while I believe he hasnt even started questing. Which leads me to believe paladins are also in a good spot. While I probably played in a way to be way more mana conservative, aswell as tranq never really hitting more than 10 people, if even that.

Don't raid tests unlock all traits now?