Okay, so the RNG loot discussion

[Echo of Soul]

I've seen a lot of statements from Blizzard about what is and what isn't exciting about loot acquisition. While I agree that getting something unexpected can be exciting it's not the be all and end all.

I can only use myself as an example but I'm sure there are some that feel the same way but just for clarity these are my opinions and nothing else. Knowing what you're after and having a reasonable chance of getting it can be just as exciting. Some of us like chasing that one item we really want, even if it's a 1% drop chance off a specific boss sooner or later it's gonna drop. Getting a perfectly rolled pair of generic gloves isn't off some random mob in the world is sure exciting but it's not really a goal you can put up there since chances are it's never going to happen.

I remember on multiple occasions back in the day when I was close to getting a PvP weapon or valor item I felt really excited on my way home because I knew that this was the day it was going to happen. You can't really get excited in the same way about something that may happen but most likely will not. It's like losing weight, it's a long journey but the closer you get to your goal the more motivating and exciting it gets.

I believe some RNG is fine. Like warforged for example, that was fine. But when sockets were added into the mix that BiS item you wanted was suddenly so far out of reach it removed all excitement from looting a boss. And it also killed off a profession and a system I felt was really good in MOP with how the sockets worked. Tweaking your gear with gems and enchants adds immersion and to be frank it has a significant place in an RPG.

Back on topic. I'm also fine with complete mayhem of RNG out in the world since you're never there looking for something specific and every surprise is a good one. It's like finding a pair of green shoulders back in vanilla during early leveling. But in dungeons and raids I feel that loot shouldn't be a slot machine, even if bosses only drop 1 item every kill and the loot table consists of 20 different items you know that one of these days your item is gonna drop. The items that stick with you, the ones you remember getting aren't the socketed and warforged Generic Pauldrons of the Feverflare titanforged to maximum, it's the Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal, it's the Tusks of Mannoroth.

I believe Blizzard are 100% wrong in their views on what makes loot exciting. In some areas of the game lots of RNG is perfectly fine but don't underestimate the satisfaction of going after a specific item and getting it, if it's from a boss drop or from farming of a currency. For me, the best part of the endgame was always crossing of items from my wishlist and that's not a realistic way to play the game anymore.

There's nothing exciting about not knowing what you might win.

[Deleted]

I never liked too powerful items like some crazy trinkets (PoF for arcane mages, etc.), especially if they change the way how the given spec is played, so i can agree with you, random WF/gem/extra stat are all terrible ideas. Legendaries are even worse, since they almost all alter the way how a given spec is played and since they are totally random (we cannot choose which one to obtain), they affect our rotation in a random mood. For example i might prefer playing fire over arcane without legendaires, but at the same time i might hate playing fire with legendary item A and want to play arcane with legenrady item C. Simply i cannot decide which spec to play since i will obtain my 1st (and one) legendary item randomly, and that sigle itemt will alter my chosen spec's gamestyle. But the planned system is even worse, since legendary item A, B and C are all on a very different power level, A might give you a minor QoL improvement, B might improve your DPS with a value of even 8-10% and C might give you a new survival tool. This means that every single player will hope for an item B drop but 2/3 of them will get item A or C and therefore locked out from item B (only the 1st legendary drop is guaranteed), so 2/3 of the players will suffer form a 10% dps penalty, this is simply mind numbing, a totally crazy design. So what can we do? As a mage i checked these legendaries and i saw that fire only has really crap quality ones (maybe that DB helm is the only useful one DPS-wise), but Blizz agreed, that all specs will have similar final output, so i assume that fire will be 5-7% ahead of frost/arcane without legendaries and lags 2-3% behind them with legendaries equipped, so the safe way is to pick fire, and forget arcane/frost. Yes a lucky arcane mage will beat me on meters, but only every 8th arcane mage will be lucky, while fire mages won't rely on there legendaries at all, since they can only obtain crap ones. My other option is to roll a class that has multiply high performance legendaries, like warlocks and hope that i won't be in the unlucky 1/5 that ends up with a useless legendary.

If the 1st drop is guaranteed let's say in 2 weeks, it might be clever to lvlup 2-5 alts from the chosen class/spec and play them simultaneously at start so one of those will get a useable legendary. Or simply start with one char, wait for the drop, and reroll immediately if it is a QoL or survival legendary. So mad system...

[Skarzog]

Following the developer interviews in the past week there are two goals Blizzard is aiming for with their loot design for Legion.

1. Expand the lifetime of content by stacking RNG.
2. Make gear more exciting by making it more random.

This is nothing new, they've been trying to do both these things for a few expansions now and each expansion has furthered these goals by essentially doing the same thing.

My issue is such...

1. Loot is already random enough right now via, warforged, gem slots, and tertiary that even the longest patches don't allow a reasonable amount of players to say they've attained "BiS". Lets look at HFC as an example. Even ignoring tertiary stats, I seriously doubt there is anyone in the world that is full warforged/gems in any level of difficulty, dungeons, normal, heroic, mythic. There are probably a couple players per guild, so 1 in 20 or so that are full warforged OR gemslotted after a year of HFC.

Loot is already random enough that there is no forseeable end to the grind. How will making loot more random give players more incentive to farm any longer?

2. Blizzard has been trying to make "loot more exciting" for a few expansions thus far and making it increasingly more random has been their go-to response. Is it working though? We keep making loot more and more random and yet people don't seem anymore excited about loot now than they were years ago.

Lets look at another game that does the same thing, Diablo. Diablo is very successful at bring players back for new seasons. However, Diablo is also notoriously bad a keeping those players. I think the average Diablo player quits a few weeks after a new season.

Personally the "fun" of Diablo quickly fades once you've obtained all the gear you want, tried the different builds associated with the gear and the only remaining goal is to just get better versions of the gear. For me gear is "fun" when it changes something about my gameplay, introduces new mechanics and forces me to do something differently. Getting the same item with more stats is not very exciting. This is all anecdotal of course, but I don't see why they keep increasing the randomness of loot in an attempt to making to more exciting when its failed time after time.

[Maudib]

Following the developer interviews in the past week there are two goals Blizzard is aiming for with their loot design for Legion.


1. Loot is already random enough right now via, warforged, gem slots, and tertiary that even the longest patches don't allow a reasonable amount of players to say they've attained "BiS".

You think you want BiS, but really you don't. You want scratch off lottery tickets that are rigged to lose.

[emilylorange]

I believe some RNG is fine. Like warforged for example, that was fine. But when sockets were added into the mix that BiS item you wanted was suddenly so far out of reach it removed all excitement from looting a boss. And it also killed off a profession and a system I felt was really good in MOP with how the sockets worked. Tweaking your gear with gems and enchants adds immersion and to be frank it has a significant place in an RPG.

My experience with old-school gemming was you looked at your gear, looked at your character sheet, looked at your gear, alt-tabbed, loaded your armory into askmrrobot, and copied what it told you to do to hit your caps and then fill out the rest with your best stat according to their big optimization equation.

Alt tabbin ain't that immersive to me.

[DarkTZeratul]

You think you want BiS, but really you don't. You want scratch off lottery tickets that are rigged to lose.

So you'd rather be able to quickly get the best gear possible and be done, rather than always having a chance to get an upgrade?

Are you one of those people who views gear as either "the best" or "crap and not worth taking"?

[Shihao]

I wouldn't mind having this rng warforged/socket if we had a way to farm something (maybe valor?) and slowly upgrade the non-warforged/add sockets to mitigate the gear gap. You would still be happy to get a "perfect" item directly but wouldn't fell bad if it isn't.

[Mayne]

RNG can be fun and not fun so perhaps a hybrid would be ideal. What if the loot stayed as rng but sockets, ability to warforge, and tertiary stats were purchased via currency acquired via dungeons, raids, world quests, or class quests? I think it would keep the suspense of not knowing what is going to drop while maintaining the predictability of being able to make your gear more powerful each week. It kind of sucks when you invest hours and hours of time on an encounter and not get anything meaningful out of it gear-wise. At least if you could earn a currency you enhance your current gear or save it to upgrade the pieces you are really hoping to get.

I wouldn't mind having this rng warforged/socket if we had a way to farm something (maybe valor?) and slowly upgrade the non-warforged/add sockets to mitigate the gear gap. You would still be happy to get a "perfect" item directly but wouldn't fell bad if it isn't.

Saw after I posted!

[nofuku]

You think you want BiS, but really you don't. You want scratch off lottery tickets that are rigged to lose.

Wow, the shitposting is real today.

[l33t]

Well, for me personally the new warforged+socket+tertiary system based on triple layers of RNG sucks. For sure, when you manage to get a warforged weapon with a socket in a first week of progression, you feel like you're the fucking king of the world; but that excitement quickly fades because of quantity of times you get usual, unupgraded items - which you get for the prevailing majority of time. Then, inevitably comes the envy, when your fucking guildie loots one warforged after another, and they come with sockets, while you sit there with only one wf+socketed piece of gear. Then, comes that very well known feelings of despair, anger and misery when you loot loot loot and loot, and you simply see absolutely no upgraded gear. And then you get to the next level of hating the world, when you start getting shitty versa/haste gear from shipyard missions/coins, which comes warforged, socketed and with good tertiary. On days when I get that kinds of gear, I seriously want to kill somebody.

So, long coming short: I believe this system of multiple layers of rng is, certainly, good for developers, because it lets them slack and continue being lazy; but for players it is as good as cancer. I think a system to allow at least creating sockets in gear via something should exist.

[FelPlague]

You think you want BiS, but really you don't. You want scratch off lottery tickets that are rigged to lose.

you really are jaded man :P

its more of enter a contest, and instead of winning a free trip to vegas all paid, you got a 100$ gift card to some place

[Glorious Leader]

Yea they try to couch it as exciting and surprising but they won't actually say it let's them stretch out gameplay. I mean why can't I apply their exciting and surprising argument to everything? Why can't gaining lvls be random? Christ they added in artifact weapons as a deterministic form of progression at max level, why can't that have rng as well? They have such ivory tower thinking.

[Krobane]

It's honestly not going to be a big deal. I just got in the last wave of invites and I didn't even know this was a thing until I was WELL into lvl 110 and almost in mythic dungeons. An 885 dropped for me in a normal and I thought it was a bug at first. Like it really is rare. It's really cool if you get one and totally unexpected but it definitely wasn't a huge power spike or leap frog me through content. It was just a nice upgrade. That's it

[Echo of Soul]

My experience with old-school gemming was you looked at your gear, looked at your character sheet, looked at your gear, alt-tabbed, loaded your armory into askmrrobot, and copied what it told you to do to hit your caps and then fill out the rest with your best stat according to their big optimization equation.

Alt tabbin ain't that immersive to me.

Or you could just put in the gems you want. Nothing in the game said you had to tab out and do research, that was your choice.

[emilylorange]

Or you could just put in the gems you want. Nothing in the game said you had to tab out and do research, that was your choice.

lol yes, you could choose to do it objectively wrong, that's true.

[clevin]

Or you could just put in the gems you want. Nothing in the game said you had to tab out and do research, that was your choice.

Not really. My rogue COULD gem for int, but that would be stupid. The hybrid gems were sometimes useful but they were still pretty much set.


The real issue with gems, reforging and enchants is that depending on your class and role, you tend to want to excel and only one thing. For DPS, that's, well, DPS. How much damage will this let me do? Will another choice let me do more? Then that other choice is better. If DPS characters could tailor the kind of things that contributed to DPS (proc rate, etc) then they could perhaps choose to gem one way to increase overall DPS or another to increase DPS on spells used when an NPC is below 35% health (buffing things like Kill Shot for hunters). Even better would be if DPS could enhance other things that were important in an expansion's encounters, i.e. if slowing adds was key, "Increases how well your slows work/how long they last" would be a valid choice.

But now, we all are measured on one thing and one thing only, which leads to all kinds of gear enhancements being measured by whether they help with that thing (i.e. DPS toons are measured by DPS, healers by ability to heal (so regen might be an issue or how much spellpower they have if regen isn't an issue), tanks on threat or survivability etc).

[Echo of Soul]

I wouldn't mind having this rng warforged/socket if we had a way to farm something (maybe valor?) and slowly upgrade the non-warforged/add sockets to mitigate the gear gap. You would still be happy to get a "perfect" item directly but wouldn't fell bad if it isn't.

I agree. Let's say you could earn 2000 VP every week and upgrading an item 5 iLvls of titanforging or warforging cost 1000 VP you could slowly work on perfecting your gear. A low iLvl piece of gear with the correct secondary stats for you and a socket could still be valuable since it could be upgraded to a BiS piece over time. Leaving the entire process up to chance isn't interesting or exciting and I don't think it's especially rewarding either.

Look at all the top WoW youtubers, they all say the same thing as a large portion of the community that this whole thing sucks but Blizzard is essentially saying that they're right and everyone else is wrong. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

[RedGamer030]

The loot system is pretty much the same as it is in Warlords of Draenor, except the low chance of an increased item level gain through the Titanforged (previous Warforged) upgrade will be determined by your current item level.

[Jazzhands]

I agree. Let's say you could earn 2000 VP every week and upgrading an item 5 iLvls of titanforging or warforging cost 1000 VP you could slowly work on perfecting your gear. A low iLvl piece of gear with the correct secondary stats for you and a socket could still be valuable since it could be upgraded to a BiS piece over time. Leaving the entire process up to chance isn't interesting or exciting and I don't think it's especially rewarding either.

Look at all the top WoW youtubers, they all say the same thing as a large portion of the community that this whole thing sucks but Blizzard is essentially saying that they're right and everyone else is wrong. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

The system is great. You can literally get awesome loot from anything. Whats the problem here? It's not the exact piece and stats you wanted? Being able to upgrade anything via valor is significantly more boring than the possibility that any boss can suddenly give me an upgrade, compared to now where I have 0 reason to play any toons because I can't get better gear than I have unless I run mythic raids.

It's literally the exact system as WoD but with a chance to roll more than 6 ilvls.

To use your example from OP, imagine you're farming that 1% drop you really want, and it finally drops. And also has an extra 20 ilvls. Terrible, right? Bosses still have loot tables, you can try to get X gloves with X stats from X boss and get it titanforged. "random mobs" won't be dropping titanforged, only bosses with set loot, and world quests with set loot, ect. You can still hunt specific items, random trash mob won't drop you a mythic tier item.

Not to mention, BiS can come from anywhere now, so it's easier to obtain than ever before. Blizzard wont design content assuming everyone has titanforged socketed gear, they just want you to have X ilvl.

There's nothing exciting about not knowing what you might win.

The unknown is the most exciting thing in existence. If you knew what would happen all the time, life would get boring. Much like how WoW content does now, because you know absolutely nothing is going to happen once you have the ilvl of the content.

Also, they could make previous raids worth running again, because you might get something. When was the last time someone ran BRF just for the hell of it?

[Mad_Murdock]

My issue is such...

1. Loot is already random enough right now via, warforged, gem slots, and tertiary that even the longest patches don't allow a reasonable amount of players to say they've attained "BiS". Lets look at HFC as an example. Even ignoring tertiary stats, I seriously doubt there is anyone in the world that is full warforged/gems in any level of difficulty, dungeons, normal, heroic, mythic.

I believe it was pointed out, that back in Vanilla no one had Best in Slot in every slot. I support Blizzard is moving away from everyone expecting to achieve BiS 100% of the time. Having 3-5 perfect items should be the new BIS. Doing something in the hopes of getting a better item does work for some people, just not for the min maxers who come to expect BIS across the board.

Lots of people claim they want to return to the good ol days and so here's a great way to get back to basics. Next, they'll make 90% of our items blue and Epics will be epic again. People don't leave because they are tired of grinding for perfect gear, they leave because they are bored with nothing to do. Guaranteed gear drops with perfect stats won't make anyone stay, if anything they'll leave as soon as they get all their slots covered.