A Lesson Learned

[Glorious Leader]

This is extremely false. Where did you get that idea from?

Lol. Really? Of the 100 million accounts that have come and gone past wow how many do you think have been raiders? You know that's the problem with this fucking website and every conversation it only takes one deluded guy to come along and deny a fact that the developers themselves have repeated over and over again and it's all of a sudden "extremely false". No dude you're wrong. Raiders are a minority. An extremely lucky one that seems to be catered too above all uber alles.

[Deja Thoris]

I can see talk of a committee decision to absolve themselves but realistically their is no committee.

Looks it's possible, it would explain the ridiculous group think that's been happening over the years. I would argue that when they say consensus what they mean is senior management consensus.

Of course there is no "committee" as in an arranged group that sits to decide. It's more a metaphor for the kind of group decision making that takes place when you run something past Jim, John, Pete and Sam and slowly dilute your original idea to please everyone. It's a fine line between "listening to feedback" etc etc but sometimes it swings too far one way or the other.

I'm not saying for sure its happening in Blizz but to me it looks like they lack strong leaders to say "this is the direction"

[Vorkreist]

Tanaan was released alongside HFC, one of the best raids Blizzard has produced in recent memory. A lot of people shit on it nowadays because it's been out for so long but it was a pretty decent raid tier with plenty of memorable and unique bosses, particularly on Mythic difficulty.

You are trying to praise HFC???
What are you smoking man? I need some of that!

[khazmodan]

Tanaan was released alongside HFC, one of the best raids Blizzard has produced in recent memory. A lot of people shit on it nowadays because it's been out for so long but it was a pretty decent raid tier with plenty of memorable and unique bosses, particularly on Mythic difficulty.

If we were all raiding mythic, the subs would not have gone down over 60% but as somebody that doesnt want to be stuck in some raid schedule i personally found HFC so forgettable that all i remember is green fire and grey brick over and over and over

[Vorkreist]

Lol. Really? Of the 100 million accounts that have come and gone past wow how many do you think have been raiders? You know that's the problem with this fucking website and every conversation it only takes one deluded guy to come along and deny a fact that the developers themselves have repeated over and over again and it's all of a sudden "extremely false". No dude you're wrong. Raiders are a minority. An extremely lucky one that seems to be catered too above all uber alles.

Actually its the other way around there are hundreds of threads and discussions where theres only you and your osmeric alter-ego arguing for tard content, removing of raiding other dumb stuff.
The reality is that the actual raiders, the ones that don't go for mythic tryharding or the old times heroic raids have left the game a long time ago.

[Glorious Leader]

Of course there is no "committee" as in an arranged group that sits to decide. It's more a metaphor for the kind of group decision making that takes place when you run something past Jim, John, Pete and Sam and slowly dilute your original idea to please everyone. It's a fine line between "listening to feedback" etc etc but sometimes it swings too far one way or the other.

I'm not saying for sure its happening in Blizz but to me it looks like they lack strong leaders to say "this is the direction"

I actually think the opposite is true. Or at least ideas aren't being run by, rather the group of leads share a group think and that's it. Other opinions other ideas rarely permeate the circle of magi.

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Actually its the other way around there are hundreds of threads and discussions where theres only you and your osmeric alter-ego arguing for tard content, removing of raiding other dumb stuff.
The reality is that the actual raiders, the ones that don't go for mythic tryharding or the old times heroic raids have left the game a long time ago.

Shit they did? It's a wonder they still get catered too... I guess actual raider is some definition you made up? Maybe my alter ego will come by and put on his two sense @Osmeric

[Florena]

"When the team set out to make Legion, the goal was to solve the content drought problem by making expansions faster than they have before.
The team made sacrifices along the way to try and make Legion faster.
They discovered along the way that there is a certain amount of time that goes into making an expansion that is up to par with what players expect and deserve.
If an expansion was just some new zones and dungeons, like a bigger patch, they probably could make them faster.
When the team starts adding new systems or classes, it takes time to iterate on the new things and get them right.
The team was too ambitious with their targets when planning for Legion.
The team has learned their lesson and accepted that they can't produce an expansion faster, so the plan moving forward as they start working on the next expansion is to make sure Legion has a lot more patch content."

Glad to hear that. But am I the only one who thinks that they should have learned this lesson a long time ago? It took Legion to learn it??? Really?

Warlords was the only one patch expansion they tried to make last just a year, with Legion taking longer than they expected. BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP all had more patches. WOD was really the first time they've made this mistake.

[Deja Thoris]

You are trying to praise HFC???
What are you smoking man? I need some of that!

Yea really. HFC was "ok". People alway laud the newest raids as "greatest evah" because they have the memories of goldfish.

[primalmatter]

I actually think the opposite is true. Or at least ideas aren't being run by, rather the group of leads share a group think and that's it. Other opinions other ideas rarely permeate the circle of magi.

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Shit they did? It's a wonder they still get catered too... I guess actual raider is some definition you made up? Maybe my alter ego will come by and put on his two sense @Osmeric

Get .5% of the content designed for you, Have people argue straight faced that you are being catered to.

O You ;p

[Vorkreist]

I actually think the opposite is true. Or at least ideas aren't being run by, rather the group of leads share a group think and that's it. Other opinions other ideas rarely permeate the circle of magi.

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Shit they did? It's a wonder they still get catered too... I guess actual raider is some definition you made up? Maybe my alter ego will come by and put on his two sense @Osmeric

No. Its the definition of the milions of people that use to raid kara up to bt (in last patch) and the normal woltk raiders and pugers.

I don't know what game you played until now but raiding has always been the general focus of anyone who wasn't full pvp oriented.

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[Saberstrike]

I was talking about 'hardcore pinnacle mythic raiders' when I said they were a minority. Naturally there were a lot more people in earlier expansions that got to experience kara / gruul as current for them when sunwell came out -- all because you HAD TO experience every tier of content (Well; Maybe most of it, at least) as current if you wanted to be useful in the next one.

You got a few epics out of the Shattered Sun rep grind, but I feel like it was by far the best way to go about 'alt catch up' alongside Zul Aman and MGT -- give people who are behind SOME gear (with lockouts, and not in every slot), so they can try and shoot for joining the big kids. I feel like that system encouraged people to get gud, and was overall much healthier for the game as a whole.

[SteveRocks]

Actually, you're wrong and the quoted post is correct. Blizzard has noted many times that a minority of people raid (Ion commented on this most recently and no, I'm not finding the link. Use Google). Raids are valuable content of course, but WoD's issue was that they were to a large degree the only core content in the patches. Yes, we got Mythic 5 mans but they were the same 5 mans we had at launch (imagine that Mythic Highmaul wasn't released at 6.0 but instead was released in 6.2 - would raiders be all 'ZOMG NEW RAID CONTENT???" ). Same for most other core content. I mean, look at Tanaan and ask if that's really a ton of new outdoor stuff. It's not. Are there even 10 quests there?

Actually you're wrong and no I will not waste time on google to prove you wrong. The comment you are referring to is most likely in reference to heroic raids of the past or raiding in general (of the past). Raids have changed a lot since then and are MUCH more accessible. Google btw is not the answer to everything. LFR is practically required in the last two expansions and that is content whether you acknowledge it or not.

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I was talking about 'hardcore pinnacle mythic raiders' when I said they were a minority. Naturally there were a lot more people in earlier expansions that got to experience kara / gruul as current for them when sunwell came out -- all because you HAD TO experience every tier of content (Well; Maybe most of it, at least) as current if you wanted to be useful in the next one.

You got a few epics out of the Shattered Sun rep grind, but I feel like it was by far the best way to go about 'alt catch up' alongside Zul Aman and MGT -- give people who are behind SOME gear (with lockouts, and not in every slot), so they can try and shoot for joining the big kids. I feel like that system encouraged people to get gud, and was overall much healthier for the game as a whole.

If you meant mythic/hardcore raiders then I'm sorry you are absolutely correct. I thought your point was that HFC didn't really count as content which I think is false because the vast majority of players have seen at least the LFR version of HFC.

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Lol. Really? Of the 100 million accounts that have come and gone past wow how many do you think have been raiders? You know that's the problem with this fucking website and every conversation it only takes one deluded guy to come along and deny a fact that the developers themselves have repeated over and over again and it's all of a sudden "extremely false". No dude you're wrong. Raiders are a minority. An extremely lucky one that seems to be catered too above all uber alles.

Wow has always been built around or at least had a heavy emphasis on raiding. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of players have experienced HFC at least in LFR mode. If you are that opposed to raiding I would suggest that maybe WoW is not for you.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Are you dense? The reason for the complaint is PRECISELY because we did NOT get "...Steady, high-quality patch releases throughout the expansion and something to tie us over between the final patch and the next expansion..." in WoD. We got a release, a stupid, nearly content free .1 patch and one good .2 patch. Nothing else and 14+ months of no content.

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And where exactly did I say that we got that model in WoD...? Are YOU dense?

[Thetruth1400]

Glad to hear that. But am I the only one who thinks that they should have learned this lesson a long time ago? It took Legion to learn it??? Really?

It is a lesson they should have learned way back in the period of time between WotLK and Cata, but I think with WoD and Legion, it was the first time they threw an entire game teams worth of people on top of the already big team and they somehow felt that was going to speed it up because 10 people can work 2x as fast as 5 kind of deal.

Of course that's not the case because everyone has their own individual thing they're working on. You can't really have two people both working on "Orc Male Model A" at the same time, nothing would get done. Sure, they could have gone, "Okay, you work on the head, I'll work on the feet.", but that's just a level of micromanagement that doesn't need to exist.

I'm all for them having more content, but I won't believe it until I actually see it. Legion better have at least as much content as Vanilla - WotLK did or else they're just lying on top of lies. Cata, MoP, and WoD were so small in terms of content that it was laughable. Cata is the only one that can kind of be forgiven because of the world overhaul, but the non world overhaul content of those three expansions was just a complete joke.

[Foj]

It's the level of quality Blizzard holds for their content which is eternally and inexorably at odds with the community's desire for more content released at rates which meet vastly varying rates of consumption. I think they've always wanted to have more content but then they actually set out to make the content and realize that it's difficult for them to produce it at a faster pace while still adhering to their standards for quality. That's why we end up with content droughts.

I'd rather Blizzard used an EVE-like model, and pushed out regular small-medium size content patches every 1-3 months. Sometimes new instances, sometimes mechanics changes, sometimes new zones, every so often a new race/class/spec ... I don't think the game actually NEEDS expansions. Blizzard probably likes the money from them, but that's different. I don't think that immense expansions with radical redesigns of game systems serve the best interests of players any more.

[clevin]

Actually you're wrong and no I will not waste time on google to prove you wrong. The comment you are referring to is most likely in reference to heroic raids of the past or raiding in general (of the past). Raids have changed a lot since then and are MUCH more accessible. Google btw is not the answer to everything. LFR is practically required in the last two expansions and that is content whether you acknowledge it or not.

Then you'll never learn. They've been emphatic that for most of the life of the product a minority of people raided. Minority is < 50% btw. Now, since LFR and if we include LFR as raiding? Yeah, since then probably more than 50% see at least one raid boss in at least LFR. But for design purposes I don't really count those people. I'd count the people who complete LFR (or mostly) but not the people who duck in and see part of it once. Organized raids? A definite minority. Pre-LFR? Again, a minority.

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And where exactly did I say that we got that model in WoD...? Are YOU dense?

Ah, the lies. As if we're all talking about LK or something. Of COURSE we're talking about the current and next expansion. You can lie to us and say "oh, I was talking about the overall tendency since vanilla" but that's just smokescreen BS.

And if we didn't get that in WoD, then why are you whining about people who complain about a lack of content in it? Are you seriously saying people shouldn't complain when they feel a product doesn't deliver?

[Queen of Hamsters]

Then you'll never learn. They've been emphatic that for most of the life of the product a minority of people raided. Minority is < 50% btw. Now, since LFR and if we include LFR as raiding? Yeah, since then probably more than 50% see at least one raid boss in at least LFR. But for design purposes I don't really count those people. I'd count the people who complete LFR (or mostly) but not the people who duck in and see part of it once. Organized raids? A definite minority. Pre-LFR? Again, a minority.

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Ah, the lies. As if we're all talking about LK or something. Of COURSE we're talking about the current and next expansion. You can lie to us and say "oh, I was talking about the overall tendency since vanilla" but that's just smokescreen BS.

And if we didn't get that in WoD, then why are you whining about people who complain about a lack of content in it? Are you seriously saying people shouldn't complain when they feel a product doesn't deliver?

Hahaha! As if you're important enough to warrant lies... Had I been referring to WoD, I would have added a "like in WoD" at the end, but since you can't seem to figure out for yourself that I was talking about the model they SHOULD stick to and not something they "did" in WoD (which was no model at all for the most part), I'll add a "like in MoP". When I think of a good patch cycle and quality of content released, my mind goes to MoP which still had room for improvement. NOT WoD.

People have been bitching and whining for faster expansions and faster patches since I started playing, many of them of the sort that does one raid or does a few arena matches or nothing at all but level, and then sit in cities going "there's nothing for me to do why can't they release content faster???"...

[Osmeric]

Shit they did? It's a wonder they still get catered too... I guess actual raider is some definition you made up? Maybe my alter ego will come by and put on his two sense @Osmeric

(Misread what was being discussed, will respond later.)

[Relapses]

Yea really. HFC was "ok". People alway laud the newest raids as "greatest evah" because they have the memories of goldfish.

To be fair, I was not saying HFC was the "greatest ever." I was replying to the implication that Tanaan content was the only thing released in 6.2. Being a Mythic raider, also, I realize my experience in raiding HFC has likely been much different than most who either didn't bother to raid further than the LFR or only experienced Normal/Heroic difficulty. Regardless, as I've said in many other threads, I still feel like the 20M Mythic model has resulted in higher quality, better tuned raids which is why I hold the raid content from WoD in such high regard.

[kentribal]

You need to read some books, or go back to school. You're incredibly hard to understand with your butchery of our language.

I do have one question for you, how did Heirlooms ruin the game for people? I'm a long time WoW player, since Tier 2 raiding in Blackwing Lair. Leveling your main was an arduous, lengthy task if you maintained a life outside of WoW. However, when it came to experiencing a new class, I believe this opened up a nice avenue to level alts. What detrimental effects does it have? Please list me some so I can understand.

I do agree that LFR should be burned to the ground. At the very least, make it to where it doesn't provide any rewards other than valor or something. If people desperately need to see content let them see it without getting rewarded for it. As far as I know, that's the only reason Blizzard keeps it implemented. "For the players who can't dedicate time to traditional raiding." Why the hell those people need gear, then? Let them see the content and be done with it if that's what it's for. Epics don't feel epic anymore because of this trash system.

sorry m8 for my bad lang,and ur right for looms sorry again its not ruined the game