Well, it's happening, Trump is starting to lose bad in the polls..

[Thepersona]

That is so wrong what are they teaching kids these days?

Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable. They are granted simply by existing the Goverment doesn't give you shit.

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Except he will never win so no hes not. A vote for Jonson is a vote for Hillary.

what if i told you that natural rights per se doesnt exist? or more exactly, that without a functioning government they wouldnt matter?

[Pangean]

It is nonsense to you because you do not think like I do. For example, if I am going to vote for Trump or stay home and not vote, that is in effect a vote for Hillary. If I vote for say a independent when I would have voted for Trump rather than Hillary, the results are the same. Hillary gets more votes than Trump does.

You just don't get it. What the value of someones vote is is up to them. Not you. You may think it's wasted but as was explained to you what they do with not voting the two major party's is just as important to them as your voting for Trump. I am not surprised you struggle with this concept but it's really not that tough to understand.

[Ghostpanther]

You just don't get it. What the value of someones vote is is up to them. Not you. You may think it's wasted but as was explained to you what they do with not voting the two major party's is just as important to them as your voting for Trump. I am not surprised you struggle with this concept but it's really not that tough to understand.

Or am I with you with what I said. But I did not say your voting was up to me did I? It is your choice. You want to vote for a independent rather than say Trump, go ahead. It may help Trump win.

[Felya]

And I rest my case. Trump makes shit so great that even his name creates jobs - in your own words "meme factory"

You sure you want workers making 0 to support a billionaire, as your example of Trump creating jobs?

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But Nathreim is correct. May as well stay home then to vote for a candidate who has no chance of winning. Trump is not likely to win, but he could.

Never trust a politician that tells you not to vote...

[kail]

Not totally true. Even within animal groups the biggest baddest alpha males dominate and they decide who mates with what female. And in some cases there is a alpha female. So what you are saying is true if you lived on a private island with only you or you as a male alpha.

I should have included "alone" in that statement. Once you have a group of people living together, some form of agreement is made as to what's allowed and what isn't (i.e. rights).

Granted, we have certain human rights in the US for example because the government's ( constitution ) law grants them. But our constitution acknowledges we are born with certain rights given to us by the creator. As the wording actually says. But of course those can be taken away by a dictator or tyrannical government. So you are not totally wrong.

The constitution can acknowledge w/e it pleases, the existence of God-given-rights depends on the person's beliefs. Bringing in religion, you pretty much acknowledge that natural rights are more subjective than actual fact.

In the end, rights are deemed by the government, enforced by the government, and taken away by the government. It's all based on what is legal or not, nothing natural about it.

[Felya]

Or am I with you with what I said. But I did not say your voting was up to me did I? It is your choice. You want to vote for a independent rather than say Trump, go ahead. It may help Trump win.

Yeah, but you'd vote for a turd sandwich or a giant douche, if it had an R or D next the name.

[Pangean]

Or am I with you with what I said. But I did not say your voting was up to me did I? It is your choice. You want to vote for a independent rather than say Trump, go ahead. It may help Trump win.

No gramps you stated it was a waste. Like I said it's a simple concept that you seem to struggle with. It's only a waste if you believe your reasoning is better than theirs for how they voted. How I vote won't help Trump win. Trump's doing his damnest to ensure that.

[zorothusian]

Of course he is, he's leaving behind the raging dumpster fire that was the GOP primary and moving onto the general. Did anything seriously think his particularly juvenile brand of bravado and bombastic sociopath rhetoric would fly with anyone beside that typical neanderthal GOP primary goer?

I'm no fan of Secretary Clinton, and I believe she's as phony as they come. That being said, she's going to wax Trump and because he's so damn toxic the GOP in general is going to get hosed in this election.

Make America great again, indeed.

I'm a democrat and I am not voting for her I will be voting for Johnson

[Pangean]

I'm a democrat and I am not voting for her I will be voting for Johnson

Of course you are.

[Felya]

I'm a democrat and I am not voting for her I will be voting for Johnson

Why Johnson over Jill Stein? As a democrat, voting for Johnson makes no sense.

[Zyster]

This is such nonsense. There are many uses of a vote. And one is to protest the current options. Another is to actually vote for someone who represents what you actually believe as opposed to one of the two who might be closest. This "you must vote one of the two party's" silliness is presumed on the basis that you, not the one voting, knows best how to use their vote. You don't.

False, you vote for who you feel would be best in office out of the candidates that will win. IE Trump or Hillary. Doing it to protest is foolish and will result in someone being in office for at least 4 years to prove a point. For example, republicans right now who won't vote Trump to prove a point, but dislike Hillary even more. You don't vote based off who you do or don't like. That is selfish and asinine. Once the parties reach where they are currently, you really think and vote who will do better for this country. Not trying to use democratic memes like we shouldn't vote at all so they can try and push Hillary into office easier.

[Felya]

False, you vote for who you feel would be best in office out of the candidates that will win. IE Trump or Hillary. Doing it to protest is foolish and will result in someone being in office for at least 4 years to prove a point. For example, republicans right now who won't vote Trump to prove a point, but dislike Hillary even more. You don't vote based off who you do or don't like. That is selfish and asinine. Once the parties reach where they are currently, you really think and vote who will do better for this country. Not trying to use democratic memes like we shouldn't vote at all so they can try and push Hillary into office easier.

Uhm... No, people who vote for the person that wins are responsible for them winning. By your logic, voting for either of the two parties is responsible for third party not having a chance. So, you are just as responsible for Trump winning while voting Hilary, as someone who voted Jill Stein. The differance being, you voted for someone you dislike, because succeeding in what they do, is more important than what they do.

[Pangean]

False, you vote for who you feel would be best in office out of the candidates that will win. IE Trump or Hillary. Doing it to protest is foolish and will result in someone being in office for at least 4 years to prove a point. For example, republicans right now who won't vote Trump to prove a point, but dislike Hillary even more. You don't vote based off who you do or don't like. That is selfish and asinine. Once the parties reach where they are currently, you really think and vote who will do better for this country. Not trying to use democratic memes like we shouldn't vote at all so they can try and push Hillary into office easier.

Not false at all. And in fact my vote is specifically saying that neither of the two major candidates are the person I want in office. My vote is saying the system is broken and I want a better system. My vote is saying that continually voting between shit and shit simply gets me shit. I choose another path. I choose to vote for someone who far better represents my views and neither of the two main candidates gets my vote. You on the other hand can keep voting for shit.

[XorMalice]

Yup rules committee makes changes and unbinds all delegates before first vote.

I very much doubt that is a possibility. Trump has 1500+ pledged delegates. If he's somehow not the nominee, it would be vastly unprecedented and we'd likely lose the GOP completely. I can't really believe people are still talking about this after Trump won all the everythings.

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Your rights exist because of the government, so you don't have much of a choice.

This is scary thinking. Rights exist inherently. The bill of rights prevents the government from attempting to deny these rights. You always have your rights.

[Pangean]

I very much doubt that is a possibility. Trump has 1500+ pledged delegates. If he's somehow not the nominee, it would be vastly unprecedented and we'd likely lose the GOP completely. I can't really believe people are still talking about this after Trump won all the everythings.

It's an answer to the question asked. How likely is it? Fairly small.

You make it sound that loosing the GOP is a bad thing.

And people are still talking about it because they realize how poisonous Trump is to their party.

[PC2]

And people are still talking about it because they realize how poisonous Trump is to their party.

Trump is the cure not a poison. Establishment GOP is way too soft on illegals and unskilled immigration.

[Nathreim]

Trump is actually the best choice. Hes burned down so many bridges the only way anything will get done will be through all sides working together and rigorous debate. He wont be able to use Executive orders without being challenged at every turn by both parties.

The worst case scenario with Trump is nothing gets done and his Presidency is dead on arrival. Then we get better choices in 4-8 years.

Hillary will just abuse her power and the Democrats will support her while the Republicans wave a finger while doing nothing to stop her.

[Garnier Fructis]

I bet they said that in Europe too.

I did not say there was no element of the religious right left in the US. I said they were defeated (and I meant in the court of public opinion which I didn't clarify. my bad). You can't seriously think social conservatism is a winning issue in the current political climate. Even the GOP realized they lost on social issues.

Defeated on a national scale, maybe. They've shifted focus to whatever they can do on a state and local level. You'll note that the continued attempts to introduce creationism into schools is happening at the state level (or lower), and have for a long time.

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Trump is actually the best choice. Hes burned down so many bridges the only way anything will get done will be through all sides working together and rigorous debate. He wont be able to use Executive orders without being challenged at every turn by both parties.

The worst case scenario with Trump is nothing gets done and his Presidency is dead on arrival. Then we get better choices in 4-8 years.

Hillary will just abuse her power and the Democrats will support her while the Republicans wave a finger while doing nothing to stop her.

No, the worst case scenario is Trump picking supreme court justices. If it wasn't for this, I could actually stomach 4 years of Trump since I'd be able to watch him let down all the idiots by not building the wall.

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Trump is the cure not a poison. Establishment GOP is way too soft on illegals and unskilled immigration.

It's a cure in the same sense that chopping your leg off definitely cures a toenail fungus infection.

[Bodakane]

Trump is the cure not a poison. Establishment GOP is way too soft on illegals and unskilled immigration.

lol.

If you and the rest of the GOP really cared about the illegals coming here, you'd be going after the agribusinesses that not only hire them but smuggle them over. You guys won't do that, because its all about racism and not the actual problem.

https://www.opensecrets.org/industri...cle=2016&ind=A

Agribusiness has given $23.5 million to Repubs this year alone ($8 million to Dems).

[Fahrenheit]

Hillary will just abuse her power and the Democrats will support her while the Republicans wave a finger while doing nothing to stop her.

I think you mean they'll do everything in their power to obstruct her at every turn, regardless of the collateral damage caused. It's the same game plan they've had for the past 8 years. It's the same game plan that has turned me off from voting for them until they get their head out of their collective ass and act like a pragmatic center right foil to the Dems and not the far right lunacy it's become since GWB burnt all the GOP capital with his shit show of a presidency.