BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

Djalil arent you a little biased in all this immigration debate?

Why would I be?

[Noradin]

Farage has said (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681) he thinks there needs to be a two thirds to one third majority in favour of Remain to end the discussion [no possibility of a second referendum]. Do you think he'd also agree that there should be a two thirds to one third majority in favour for Brexit for it to happen, or would a difference of 1% be enough?

So if Brexit does not win with a two thirds to on third majority, will remaining stay up for discussion?
That would be only fair if brexit is to remain up for discussion unless Remain gets a two third majority.

[Deleted]

You're still not getting it. The point is not to help German citizens. They live in fucking paradise, it's one of the greatest nations on the planet to live in. The point is for them to help other countries. And Greece is being helped a shitton. We just released another billion money transfer to Greece. We are what's keeping Greece alive at the moment. And as has been said countless times, it's going to be a long process for them to heal up properly. But once they do, they will help others just like we did. For the moment they're benched and watch the game from the sidelines, and that's fine. For them and for us. They'll rejoin the game when they're in shape again.

Oh, crashing the EU financial market? That's all on the US and the UK (to a lesser extent). Don't blame that on the EU.

Did you honeslty just say that getting cars stolen and your house/aparment burglarized is helping other countries? Are you for real?
Do you understand the societal impact of major theft and crime increase on the citizens of a country and what comes with that? People not feeling save and losing faith in the justice/legal system? Why do you believe right wingers are on the rise?

You do understand that the ecomonic situation for ordinary German citizens is getting worse right? There has been almost no increase in wages since 1992 compared to costs and inflation even though productivity has risen by 30%. We have an insane amount of youth unemployment. It is now almost impossible to get an employment contract that is not limited in time. Rent is becoming more and more expensive. There has been more and more economic uncertainty. The goverment tries to abuse welfare more and more while inviting 1.5 million people into their our country. The issues are going and on, Germany is stagnating for its citizens. Only companies profit.

Greece was destroyed by the EU and Germanys (mostly Merkel and Schäuble) economic austerity. Ask Noam Chomsky your hero.

And btw nice goalpost shifting. I give you example of human rights violtions and you just ignored it. Do you not care about sinti and roma? Or freedom of the press? Then how come those countries were allowed to join?

[Deleted]

Don't be a dickhead with word play mate. It's still the same in the eyes of the countries natives. An incompatible culture clashing with their own native culture. Aboriginals of Australia lost, Aboriginals of America, Canada and Mexico lost. The natives of Indonesia lost as well as the natives of Northern African lands etc. No reason why it can't happen to the west in this age and from what I have seen in Europe it is certainly happening.

Of course bro.

[Noradin]

Because you were fully aware of these huge expenses already? So you know... you can make an informed decision.

Also I think the point is more why the fuck did we pay for our "mate" to join a "club" in the first place.

We (the EU) didn't, we did give then incentives so they would meet some of the prerequisites.
Like giving your mate some spare pants so you don't have to see his naked ass.
You just call it "help getting into the club" so he stops arguing about not accepting pity handouts.

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I wish you would stop quoting blatant propaganda sites... *sigh*

But those are his sources.

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To be fair. You are the genius that claimed migration will slow down during the winter and Merkel will not suffer in the polls because people love her.

Your predictions are pointless. Especially since you are an authoritarian at any cost.

Yes, he didn't predict the weather correctly. There was no winter this year.

[Belize]

If you guys leave, will the GBP come down in value for a week or 2? I got some shit to order, but the damn GBP is too high to get a good conversion rate...

[Deleted]

Yes, he didn't predict the weather correctly. There was no winter this year.

There was but the decrease in temperature had almost no effect on migration.

[Noradin]

It will be interesting to see how England reacts to having her vote overturned by the other UK nations.

They could hold a reverendum to leave the UK...

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The goal is to get turkey into the EU and it has been for many many years.

Obviously you have no grasph of international politics.
The goal has always been to get Turkey to meet the prerequisites for joining the EU.
To actually have them join is still just as far off as it has always been and very unlikely to ever happen.

[baskev]

First off this is not a attack or something, just how i feel about it.

Surprised to see a lack of debate about this.

Leave or remain?

I will vote leave because:

a) I do not feel, at heart, that I'm a "European" and I do not want further political or economic integration of the sort that the federalists in Brussels are pushing for. I believe that the original post WW2 argument that European countries who trade with each other are less likely to go to war has been superseded.

1) If i am reading this right you think EU wants to become 1 big country. They do not. All they want to be is 1 big force against the might of country's like USA, China, Russia etc. And with the laws in place we can do stuff more easy.

b) TTIP, specifically the introduction of ISDS (Investor State Dispute Settlements), which would allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. A spectacular devaluation of democratic process, especially considering how the Tories are busy privatising the NHS. Enter Corbyn and then a host of American lawyers will be taking billions from the public purse. Completely unacceptable. TTIP fails to take into account ongoing variations in local political opinion.

2) Do not know allot about this subject. Sounds insane though. But you think it will stop if you are no longer in EU?? stuff like that will happen anyway they are politicians.

c) Democratic accountability. Rightly or wrongly I feel the EU is a distant and unaccountable institution that I have little influence over. An unelected council drafts legislation that MEPs (assimilated into right, centre right, centre left, and left voting blocs) vote on? I just don't see how this is right. If there were a democratically elected President and European Commission I might feel differently about this, but that's not the case.

3) Yes agree with you on that. Its very distant. The council is not unelected . The council is made up out of ALL the head of states of the EU. And the rest of the council is made up out of party's from all the country's. They usually mix with each other. So lefty tree hughers from Britain usually hang out with lefty tree hughers from germany etc. The commission is made up out of 1 person from EACH country. Again choice by there OWN country.

d) The incredible, overwhelmingly negative campaigning of the Remain camp. Not a day goes by without Cameron or Osborne trundling out some new apocalyptic statistic. If they were to actually say something positive for a change I might feel differently. But it's an ongoing onslaught of "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. house prices and "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. the cost of foreign holidays. It just puts my back up.

4) Yes but that is your political system ( ours is the same). Its "hip" to talk apocalyptic these days. I think staying will be positive for you because things will not get more expensive, and doing stuff from starting a company in the eu, to going on vacation or buying something from a other country is cheaper now.

I will not vote leave because of fears about:

a) Immigration. Immigrants contribute a huge amount, culturally and economically, to the UK. I do not worry about strains on public services, although I accept that views will differ on this.

1) Yes i agree with you. But it will bring more and more a strain on the EU.

b) The costs of membership of the EU - 0.5% of GDP.

2) Yes for country's like ours that is easy to do.

I am worried about voting leave because:

a) As a tax-payer who has had to tolerate 8 years of austerity, the immediate short-term economic effect of Brexit will be negative (even according to the least pessimistic of estimations). Having paid for the financial sector's shortcoming over the last 8 years, I'd then face a further 10 years of uncertainty, possible recession, further austerity, etc.

1) You think leaving will protect you from a other Economic problems. Yes you will no longer have to pay for greece. But last economic crisis was caused by american way of doing business and it started in america. So it will still have allot of effect on you. The difference now is that you are not alone in fighting it. Then you will be.

b) Destabilisation of the EU as a whole. In the face of increased economic protectionism e.g. Trump in the White House, China's distortion of commodity markets, and open military aggressiveness from e.g. Russia. Can the EU afford to lose the UK?

2) Yup, worried about that to. Can we afford to lose you...yes and no. It will have a large effect. And i rather see the econimc and polictial weak country's of the Mediterranean and eastern Europe go away then the British . But if you stand alone. How will you defend against stuff?

UK folk - how will you vote and what are you reasons for doing so?

Personaly i hope the British will stay. I really want the eastern country's and southern ones to leave. Belgium, Netherlands, France, Britian, Germany etc are all good and strong together. Al lone we will be weak.

[Mayhem]

Don't be a dickhead with word play mate. It's still the same in the eyes of the countries natives. An incompatible culture clashing with their own native culture. Aboriginals of Australia lost, Aboriginals of America, Canada and Mexico lost. The natives of Indonesia lost as well as the natives of Northern African lands etc. No reason why it can't happen to the west in this age and from what I have seen in Europe it is certainly happening.

You not understanding the difference between civilians fleeing and colonization isn´t playing with words. The colonial powers had armies with them, they didn´t peacefully started to outnumber the aboriginal population, they murdered and/or enslaved them.

[Noradin]

Djalil arent you a little biased in all this immigration debate?

I'd call it "fed up with the UK and their antics."

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yo ucan easily work for cash in hand in the UK while still claiming benefits yeah its illegal but they dnt care, the benefit system is a dream for migrants, come to the UK get a free house and money and everything you want without lifting a fucking finger.

Have you per chance listened to the propaganda human traffickers spread to get more "customers".

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There was but the decrease in temperature had almost no effect on migration.

There wasn't even any snow.

[Alydael]

What do you call arguing the merits of leaving based on fearmongering towards people from different nations?

yes racist.

If you go to argument is ''80M Turkish people will come to my country and rape my women'' then yes your a bloody racist especially when every part of your argument is a bloody lie.

Then lets mention what they have been calling other EU immigrants.



It may be me but how does this even work? How can people steal jobs and get well-fare at the same time? If their is such a trick please share because the rest of us have been doing it wrong then. If they worked illegally they couldn't be buying up all of the houses as well could they?

Every single argument contradicts each other, but then people are using it to attack different ethnicities.

Ok....... Even though these arguments refute themselves, I will refure them for you, as a "public" service

argument is ''80M Turkish people will come to my country and rape my women'- I have yet to see this even claimed, anywhere. The closest I have seen is that some rapists are sneaking in with the other refugees, and since the government is not doing it's job and properly vetting these people, the rapist are sneaking in...
- It makes sense. If you were a fugitive fleeing justice in one of these countries, why not go the "refugee" route? They won't vette you anyway- you can just stroll right in to start your crimes anew.

Maybe a few fringe elements are attacking based on race, but most people have obvious and legitimate concerns.

Such as: are there jobs for all these people?

is there enough infrastructure for all these people? You let in 1 million people, did you build more roads, housing, hospitals, schools to accomadate them? I haven't noticed any huge construction push, so I guess not.

As for "how can people steal welfare and work at the same time," I don't know the system in Europe, but here in the USA they do it like this:

They work "off the books"- straight cash, off the record. The welfare agency has no idea they are working.

They pass around children, ids ,etc. Since they were never properly vetted on the way in, their identity is sort of "secret," so they can claim a differenbt name, children, wives etc. and no one knows because they were never checked on the way in. So they just claim whatever they can to get the max benefits while still working "off the books."

Wow, see how easy that was. Even a totally uneducated person with no command of the language could manipulate the system... The real amazing part is that you needed me to explain it to you, I guess they not only outsmarted the system- they outsmarted YOU TOO!

[klogaroth]

then why would cameron call a referrendum in the first place then

Cos he didn't want half his party defecting to UKIP.

There's also the "I told you so" factor.

Nobody who has a sniff of power is sure enough about brexit to put their name to it 100%. They will put it to a vote and then if everything goes to shit they can blame the public.

It's also worth mentioning that it was a Tory government that signed us up for the EU. People seem to have this idea that the Tories are inherently anti-Europe. This is just untrue and is a relatively new development.

[Nigel Tufnel]

So if Brexit does not win with a two thirds to on third majority, will remaining stay up for discussion?
That would be only fair if brexit is to remain up for discussion unless Remain gets a two third majority.

Yes, Noradin, that's exactly the point I was making. I was asking for comments.

But: you're suggesting you agree with Farage and that a split of 66.6-33.3 should put the issue to rest either way? You seem to be implying I agree with that? Reread my post.

Personally, I think Farage is completely wrong, and that if the result was even e.g. 56-44 Remain, there should be absolutely no mention of a second referendum. If the result was 56-44 Leave, regardless of the government's stance, clearly they'd have to follow the will of the electorate.

But what if the gap is genuinely very small e.g. 51-49, 52-48 in favour of Leave? I just can't see Brexit happening. Nor should it do... I would prefer more debate.

Rather than just quote Farage back at me (who is wrong), what is your opinion? Do you think e.g. a 55-45 (result of the Scottish Independence referendum in favour of the No camp) split would be enough that the government would have to act?

[Deleted]

Yes, Noradin, that's exactly the point I was making. I was asking for comments.

But: you're suggesting you agree with Farage and that a split of 66.6-33.3 should put the issue to rest either way? You seem to be implying I agree with that? Reread my post.

Personally, I think Farage is completely wrong, and that if the result was even e.g. 56-44 Remain, there should be absolutely no mention of a second referendum. If the result was 56-44 Leave, regardless of the government's stance, clearly they'd have to follow the will of the electorate.

But what if the gap is genuinely very small e.g. 51-49, 52-48 in favour of Leave? I just can't see Brexit happening. Nor should it do... I would prefer more debate.

Rather than just quote Farage back at me (who is wrong), what is your opinion? Do you think e.g. a 55-45 (result of the Scottish Independence referendum in favour of the No camp) split would be enough that the government would have to act?

they cant just have a 2nd referendum just if leave win otherwise this referrendum is pointless cos cameron will keep calling for another referrendum until remain wins and that will 1. damage his rep and 2. make the tories almost unelectable ever, just look at what this referrendum has done to nick cleggs reputation lol that guys down and out now

[Nigel Tufnel]

they cant just have a 2nd referendum just if leave win otherwise this referrendum is pointless cos cameron will keep calling for another referrendum until remain wins and that will 1. damage his rep and 2. make the tories almost unelectable ever, just look at what this referrendum has done to nick cleggs reputation lol that guys down and out now

Yeah Furry - but that's not answering my question... do you genuinely believe a 51-49 Leave result would be enough to justify it? Personally, I don't think it would be.

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First off this is not a attack or something, just how i feel about it. /snip

No - don't worry that's all fine. But you're a bit late. I've already changed my mind. Having done so much reading now and taking other people's opinions on board (not really from the rabid pro-EU MMO-C posters, though), I'm going to vote Remain. E.g. the TTIP thing I was just wrong about. Many people have pointed out that a Tory-led UK government would willingly incorporate ISDS in any trade deals negotiated post Brexit. I acknowledged this many pages back.

On other subjects (e.g. democratic shortcomings of the EU) I haven't been convinced and I'm still, in general, a eurosceptic. In the event of a Remain vote I hope the EU takes a good, long, hard look at itself.

But the simple crux of it is I just don't want to deal with the short term economic fallout, which according to practically every single study that's been done, is going to hurt. All the data is there on the web if you go look for it.

Long term economic outlook - no-one knows for sure. If they tell you they know, they're lying. There are simply too many variables.

Already my partner's business is having jobs put on hold until 'after' the referendum. Her position is already looking shaky. So, purely on the basis of my own personal circumstances I'm going to go for short-termism and the status quo, which is a bit depressing but I've got a family / mortgage etc.

Gtg now.

[Bethanie]

Yeah Furry - but that's not answering my question... do you genuinely believe a 51-49 Leave result would be enough to justify it? Personally, I don't think it would be.

It's called democracy, what the people decide at the ballot box is what should happen. If the government or parliament were to go against the democratically expressed will of the people then that would be tyranny, and the first step on a very dark road.

[Deleted]

Actually he's right on that point there's a lot of area's where people cannot speak English.

Almost every single EU national going to the UK for residence will speak English. That's all but guaranteed due to going there for a job and/or investment. Recall they need to demonstrate self-sufficiency in order to remain after X months.

So, what you are talking about are non-EU nationals, i.e. those that the UK, like every other country in the EU, has always had full control over. The EU has absolutely no say in countries abilities to integrate people, let alone non-EU nationals, once they are inside a country.

When (not if, seemingly) countries fail their ability to integrate people, it is utterly their fault since only they can do it in their own way.

[Mayhem]

Actually he's right on that point there's a lot of area's where people cannot speak English.

Scotts, irish and welsh don´t count. :P

[Theodarzna]

Scotts, irish and welsh don´t count. :P

The UK does possess several indigenous languages that are not English.