BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

It's kinda funny to read different UK news websites and newspapers right now. It's like both sides for see the end of the world either when they leave or stay.

Who even knows what to believe anymore?

[vbnm247]

Not only Turkey cannot join period but people fail to realise that joining the EU is a decades (plural) long process that require a nation to reach plenty of milestones. We the old eastern block countries the EU realised that it cannot be rushed either.

If you look at Turkey today, not only it does not meet ANY of the criterias for joining but on top of that a majority of Turks do not want to join because it would destroy their own economy....

People also forget, that nations have veto power...

Turkey might not join but it does not stop the EU from providing a special type of entry visa allowing a set number of Turks free movement rights. These special visas could increase in number each year. This could be a compromise for Turkey agreeing to take in extra migrants.

A British diplomat suggested visa-free travel for some Turkish nationals should be extended to the UK, documents leaked to the Sunday Times show.

Yeah I know, tinfoil hat etc. But politicians have a knack of saying one thing and doing another.

[Deleted]

Turkey might not join but it does not stop the EU from providing a special type of entry visa allowing a set number of Turks free movement rights. These special visas could increase in number each year. This could be a compromise for Turkey agreeing to take in extra migrants.

A British diplomat suggested visa-free travel for some Turkish nationals should be extended to the UK, documents leaked to the Sunday Times show.
Yeah I know, tinfoil hat etc. But politicians have a knack of saying one thing and doing another.

Even with Visa free travel, (that the UK is under no obligation whatsoever to extend) they still wont be able to work like EU migrants.

[Slant]

The pols say an exit vote is likely but everything else says remain will win out. Why is polling so inaccurate? Do people like to mess with pollsters?

Leavers are more vocal about their opinion. Remainers only get attacked with irrational bile and don't care about polls half as much.

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"Look, we gave you a vote, you guys voted to stay. Aren't we great?"

What will happen is in 2 years someone will call it rigged and ask for a new vote. And the UK gets to play this fun game every few years, whenever something new crops up. Pandorra's box has been opened, good luck trying to get it shut again.

[klogaroth]

I think the quiet ones are going to Tory remainers.

Somehow people have managed to turn leaving into a right wing cause.

Whatever your political leaning there are pros and cons to the EU from your point of view. There is more than one issue in play here. It's not solely about trade, it's not solely about immigration, it's not solely about industry regulations. It's all these things and many, many more.

Some of them you will probably agree with the general EU stance. Unless you're disagreeing with absolutely everything just out of being a dick to bremainers. Some things you'll probably disagree with, again unless you're agreeing with absolutely everything just out of being a dick to brexiters.

For all people try to frame it as left vs right, it really isn't. Like I said earlier in the thread, joining the EU was done under a Conservative government. Some people have just turned the entire thing into a single issue debate, when the EU is an enormously complicated thing. People don't like complexity though. They just want to shout at the bloody foreigners or the bloody racists; when that's not what's going on on either side at all. (outside of the occasional person on Twitter, Facebook or a forum)

[Deleted]

Here's a new film claiming to put the case for and exit from a left standpoint.

Lexit


Lexit articles.
https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/42...European+Union

Left wing supporters of the European Union (EU) predict disaster if Britain votes to Leave. They say workers’ lives would get harder and racism would rise. But what would really happen? Socialist Worker looks behind six myths

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/t6645ad-lexit

[Deleted]

i wouldnt tell anyone which your voting for i mean look what happened to that MP a few days ago she was killed cos of being pro remain. so better to keep your views personal in my opinion

[Xires]

The EU is trying to be like the US except that it is missing a key factor. In the US we came together and made our own traditions and national pride. The EU is looking to take millions of people from different parts of the world and put them all in a magic box of "happyness" and expect them to get along all the while losing your national pride. Europe can NOT keep up its rate of immigration and refugee's from the 3rd world. Their are over 5 billion people in the 3rd world that would love to move to Europe and have the native population take care of them while giving NOTHING back in return. In 3rd world countries they have 5-15+ kids while in the west they have 2 or less.

Guess what that means? It means in 100 years or so- arabic will be the primary language in Europe and mosques will be found on every street corner. You know mosques...like the ones in France that were found to be containing many weapons and explosives. Liberqals don't care about that though...they just don't want to hear any "islamaphobic" SPEECH because....words are more dangerous then radicals with an agenda to murder.

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I think the quiet ones are going to Tory remainers.

Somehow people have managed to turn leaving into a right wing cause.

Whatever your political leaning there are pros and cons to the EU from your point of view. There is more than one issue in play here. It's not solely about trade, it's not solely about immigration, it's not solely about industry regulations. It's all these things and many, many more.

Some of them you will probably agree with the general EU stance. Unless you're disagreeing with absolutely everything just out of being a dick to bremainers. Some things you'll probably disagree with, again unless you're agreeing with absolutely everything just out of being a dick to brexiters.

For all people try to frame it as left vs right, it really isn't. Like I said earlier in the thread, joining the EU was done under a Conservative government. Some people have just turned the entire thing into a single issue debate, when the EU is an enormously complicated thing. People don't like complexity though. They just want to shout at the bloody foreigners or the bloody racists; when that's not what's going on on either side at all. (outside of the occasional person on Twitter, Facebook or a forum)

because to the left...if you aren't willing to be stripped of your national identity and if you don't want to invite in millions of people that hate everything you stand for....then you are a "right wing nut".

[klogaroth]

because to the left...if you aren't willing to be stripped of your national identity and if you don't want to invite in millions of people that hate everything you stand for....then you are a "right wing nut".

This is exactly what I was talking about.

This level of political discourse. Something that threatens to ruin this referendum, and many other votes.

[Deleted]

I was initially on the fence but i've decided i'll be voting to leave come the 23rd. Not the easiest of the choices knowing full well what economical and social backlashes could potentially be. Personally i just don't see us as part of the EU, don't feel like we ever have been.

[Deleted]

I was initially on the fence but i've decided i'll be voting to leave come the 23rd. Not the easiest of the choices knowing full well what economical and social backlashes could potentially be. Personally i just don't see us as part of the EU, don't feel like we ever have been.

You have been, very much so.

43 years ago, you went from as being almost sick as Greece is now, begging for IMF bailouts, trying to combat high inflation and high unemployment, then you joined the Common Market to sell your goods and services tariff-free to a captured single market.

From that time, your national output increased faster than Germany, France and Italy. Now you are set to become the world's 4th largest economy, have labor regulations and reformed long-running economy around them that other governments in the EU would almost kill for and give a large advantage within the EU bloc (outside it, is another matter entirely).

You have an economy that is very heavily service-oriented and therefore would benefit the most from liberalization between nations. No state would normally ever just give you that, but within the EU these are ongoing efforts all the time, and the UK has enormous influence on the process as the 2nd largest economy in the bloc. Think digital single market or capital markets union etc.

Within the EU, you have massive influence in other areas, such as global security (independent of but as powerful as NATO), global rules on an increasingly dependent and smaller world, e.g. crazies like Putin, uncontrolled migration, international crime, climate change, scientific research ... all risks now and in future that require collective resources or response and rule of law. It is sometimes easy to forget that almost all prosperity and progress since the end of WW2 has been based on common security, spread of common values and rules of international law.

If you leave, you turn your back on and in most cases lose all that, certainly almost all economic benefits and influence from being part of and a primary power of the world's largest common market. At best, you go from being a rule maker to a rule taker.

Also, unlike other types of elections, there is no do-over here. A protest vote is completely and utterly pointless. Not only is the likelihood of another EU referendum in your lifetime very low, but if Brexit does occur, you are not coming back to the EU, certainly not before the UK undergoes profound consequences that strongly change the terms on which it could even want or be allowed to return, e.g. the breakup of the UK.

By contrast, if there was ever a fundamental reason in future to leave the EU, e.g. the collapse of the Eurozone, or something completely untenable to the UK government or its people, a vote then would obviously be offered. So what do you gain, what alternative are you rushing to that is strictly better than the EU now?

[DarkAmbient]

Leavers are more vocal about their opinion. Remainers only get attacked with irrational bile and don't care about polls half as much.

You've thrown around plenty of insults in this thread, you're hardly in a position to complain about attacks.

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The pols say an exit vote is likely but everything else says remain will win out. Why is polling so inaccurate? Do people like to mess with pollsters?

I would ignore all polling, to be honest. They got it spectacularly wrong at the general election. Poor Ed Miliband was getting his stuff ready to move into Number 10 before the exit polls came out.

[Kallisto]

I would ignore all polling, to be honest. They got it spectacularly wrong at the general election. Poor Ed Miliband was getting his stuff ready to move into Number 10 before the exit polls came out.

Honestly if we had PR it would have been more likely he would have been in 10 with the centre left parties of Lib Dems/SNP/Greens/SDLP behind him Tories would have had UKIP with them with the difference on the two sides being a % or two.

I'll say it now though the bookies got it right last year with them pointing towards a very slim Conservative majority. Right now I think the bookies are running on a Silent Tory like situation when it comes to the EU as silent Remainers.

So IMF came out and essentially reaffirmed how bad Brexit could be for UK economy. Best case (and highly unlikely) 1.5% drop. Worst case 5.6% drop with most likely somewhere in the middle.

Either way that's a major hit for jobs many people will find themselves out of work. For nationalistic pride. It just is not worth it,

[Blayze]

we havnt even had the vote yet it happens in 5 days what are you on about

That'll be their defense. They'll rig it, they'll get away with it, nobody will be able to prove it and the elites will keep the control they've always had.

[Deleted]

That'll be their defense. They'll rig it, they'll get away with it, nobody will be able to prove it and the elites will keep the control they've always had.

you cant rig a referrendum as someone stated before its upto the british people to vote and any unauthorised changes would result in tyranny

[vbnm247]

Here's a new film claiming to put the case for and exit from a left standpoint.

Lexit


Lexit articles.
https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/42...European+Union


https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/t6645ad-lexit

TTIP sounds horrendous and being reminded of all those Banks funding remain just makes me even more skeptical of their motivations. EU gravy train in full force imo.

[Deleted]

That'll be their defense. They'll rig it, they'll get away with it, nobody will be able to prove it and the elites will keep the control they've always had.

You cannot rig a referendum in a democracy.

However, just because they vote Brexit, does not necessarily mean they'll Leave.

For example, more than two thirds of their MPs plus Prime Minister (and maybe even more in the upper house) do not want to Brexit.

How would it even legally act within the UK? If the Prime Minister voted legislation to start the process because he felt honor bound based on his promise, he is not a dictator, he cannot force even his own MPs to pass that legislation.

So, it may actually creates deep constitutional issues, that even the monarch could not resolve except in immediately dissolving Parliament and causing a re-election, which may still not lead to a Leave political majority!

And in the meantime, no doubt the referendum details would be one of the most studied processes in modern times and would likely show that all but England voted to Remain. So, on top of MPs being against it, regardless of elections, what now when it comes to devolved regions?

It becomes a complete mess and horrendous uncertainty across multiple contexts in one of the world's largest economies, at a time when the UK, EU and world cannot afford it ....

[Slant]

You've thrown around plenty of insults in this thread, you're hardly in a position to complain about attacks.

Yes, I tend to do that when people act stupid and don't listen to arguments and instead choose to recite some bullshit propaganda they read on some fearmongering website. I'm pretty good at tolerating a lot of shit, but I'm really intolerant to wilful ignorance.

[Blayze]

you cant rig a referrendum as someone stated before its upto the british people to vote and any unauthorised changes would result in tyranny

Never trust anybody in power. They'll do anything to keep it.

[Deleted]

Never trust anybody in power. They'll do anything to keep it.

yeah and rigging the referrendum is the worst thing to do as you will lose power and nobody will vote for you