Okay, so the RNG loot discussion

[Deleted]

I think some RNG is good, but too much just kills motivation.

Way back in vanilla, re-running the say, UBRS until your shadowcraft dropped was motivating. You'd do the dungeon, hope like hell what you wanted dropped and this kept you coming back over and over. It also meant you'd find groups and a lot of the early bonding in wow was done between "good guys" who would help you farm your stuff after you helped them farm theirs.

When gear with RNG stats just falls out of the sky, theres not quite the same motivating factor. Its still nice and everything, but the motivational feeling is muted in comparison.

[Deleted]

i like when i know this boss drops my Head that i need.I would love if drop % goes down then gettin 20 diffrent heads evry week and waiting for one who is best.
Only Rng i like is with spells like mage Brain freez.
this rng is too much for now but dont think blizz wil change it

[Echocho]

I don't see the reason to aim for something with all the bonus rolls on it. Aim for just having the item in any form if it is BiS. Then you are done if you want to. Don't feel forced into trying to get it with all those bonus rolls tacked onto it.

Not all people are able to play like that. A lot of people want the best possible item, a definite place they can find that item and a realistic chance to win that item. When you start going below 5% drop chance you go from something players will farm for months to something they won't farm at all.
If there's no chance of winning a lot of people just won't participate at all. This will lead to more players clearing the content once and then never touching it again. Too much RNG will actually make content end faster instead of slower as intended.

[Mhyroth]

I already commented about this issue numerous times in various threads, always being pointed at as being silly and "it will be fine", while the first 5 posts already show clearly that people are not happy with the upcoming/current system and it's has no place in WoW where you're bound to Daily/Weekly lockouts.
I can't wait to see people quit 3 months into the expansion because it's turning a bit too much into Diablo, although with the lockout problem which makes they can't farm gear 24/7.
I hope they will make "some" changes the longer the expansion progresses and that they will listen to the concerns regarding this issue, since not a lot of people know about it yet and there will be quite a lot of people be surprised about how Legion's gearing mechanism works.
Not judging or calling for the end of the world here, just concerned about the direction they're taking Loot and even more randomness to it.

My experience with old-school gemming was you looked at your gear, looked at your character sheet, looked at your gear, alt-tabbed, loaded your armory into askmrrobot, and copied what it told you to do to hit your caps and then fill out the rest with your best stat according to their big optimization equation.

Alt tabbin ain't that immersive to me.

I think you kind of missed the points and concerns people have here. Nobody says that is the solution or is the best thing to do, but with how easy stats are nowadays why would you even need AMR at all ? A bit more immersiveness wouldn't hurt, compared to what they have now which is an RNG cake with a layer of RNG icing with an RNG cherry on top.

Edit: Would you farm a 1/2000 rare drop Mount ? Lots of people wouldn't because the odds of getting that specific item are too low. Same for the BiS item now, it's probably a little of a higher dropchance but anything under 1% kills motivation for a lot of people.

[WorldofWorkcraft]

Edit: Would you farm a 1/2000 rare drop Mount ? Lots of people wouldn't because the odds of getting that specific item are too low. Same for the BiS item now, it's probably a little of a higher dropchance but anything under 1% kills motivation for a lot of people.

That sounds like the intent, doesn't it? But not in killing motivation, just making it an afterthought, if anything. I don't believe it's Blizzard's intent to introduce a new BiS item you grind for, especially at high-end raiding. From how they state it, it'll be a very nice surprise, if anything. If an argument involves getting bored of the same content in order to get some new random rare BiS, then the argument is pretty invalid just in the sense that you would have quit anyway once you're mostly geared, right? So the idea behind a rare, possible upgrade MIGHT keep some people around at the high-end difficulties, but this reward system is definitely not intended for that. Not at all, even if that result comes about. The idea of someone getting frustrated because only 1/20 people have gotten their "BiS" after 100 raids would mean Blizzard did an unintended good job of making you want that item, while explicitly stating it's going to be amazingly rare, which should lead you to believe it's probably NOT going to happen for you; ever.

Having said that, this RNG system change is possibly more for the people stuck in dungeons, or having a hard time progressing in raids, or alt-leveling, or helping friends, or gearing up new people for raids. If a guild is doing their best to take on a raid and get those few sick RNG items, maybe they can push further. I think this system was designed specifically to be a way of letting people have a taste of items they may never get to have otherwise, and maybe even help people push content. But, even in such a case, if it's as rare as it's led to be, this will hardly be a case either. It's more for the "OMGMGGGGMMGMG!!!" factor during a dungeon or raid. Remember those? Now they're at least achievable again to an even higher degree, where your guild can rejoice with you while harboring only a tiny bit of jealousy.

Of course these are opinions. Everyone will either like, hate, or be indifferent of the ideas. But, I think Blizzard is heading in the right direction with the surprise factor. Because we already know what to expect in a lot of cases, such a small percentage to get a "OMG YESSSS!" item will not push people to grind content to obtain it, while still making it an amazing feeling if you unexpectedly get it while doing yet ANOTHER boss you don't need something from because one of your healers really needs the upgrade from it. Think of it this way; how would you feel if you were helping gear a friend up in a dungeon you can do pretty easily, and get an upgrade yourself that will help you in your main raid or dungeon progression? Will you feel it was dumb, because this is the 50th time you've done this dungeon? How happy will your friend be for you? Is it a dumb, dull moment, or something you'd share with people and remember?

And, if you want to use the Diablo 3, know the percentages. You have a 10% chance for a Legendary item to be Ancient. That's a very large percentage; something achievable, especially with the Legendary drop rate being very high. If this random upgrade in WoW was 10% I could see people being outraged because of raid lockouts. But if it's 1%, are you going to see that as an achievable necessity? Lower? Where is the cutoff where people stop seeing the RNG drop as a necessity and start seeing it as something that will probably never happen, so why even bother in terms of progression? I don't know the answer, but hopefully Blizzard does.

I believe Blizzard are 100% wrong in their views on what makes loot exciting. In some areas of the game lots of RNG is perfectly fine but don't underestimate the satisfaction of going after a specific item and getting it, if it's from a boss drop or from farming of a currency. For me, the best part of the endgame was always crossing of items from my wishlist and that's not a realistic way to play the game anymore.

There's nothing exciting about not knowing what you might win.

TL;DR:
At the end of the day, all I know is this; if I'm running a friend through a dungeon to help them gear up, not expecting any upgrades at all, and I actually get one, I'm going to be ecstatic, and my friend will be really happy for me. If I'm doing a progression raid, and get a new item that's an upgrade, I'll be happy, and people will be happy for me, regardless of how MUCH of an upgrade it was. If our guild Tank gets an amazingly rare BiS chest that we weren't expecting, that will help them help us for further progression, everyone is happy. The only problem I foresee is jealousy among raid members if that amazing gear piece drops, and if that's the case, I suggest you re-evaluate your view of your friends, guild, and how you play the game in general.

[primalmatter]

Personally I like the system.

It lets me do the content I enjoy and keep progressing my characters power. It gives me a long term goal that has a change to keep me subed from day 1 to the last day of Legion.

Doing the same thing over and over again isn't progression old friend.

[Jtbrig7390]

Doing the same thing over and over again isn't progression old friend.

Doing the same thing over and over can lead to progressing yourself.

Keep working out and you lose weight that is progression. Keep doing LFR and getting better drops that is progression.

[primalmatter]

Doing the same thing over and over can lead to progressing yourself.

Keep working out and you lose weight that is progression. Keep doing LFR and getting better drops that is progression.

You are still doing lfr though. There isn't any progression you remain in the same spot. Yeah in time your ilv will climb but it is akin to running in place.

[Jtbrig7390]

You are still doing lfr though. There isn't any progression you remain in the same spot. Yeah in time your ilv will climb but it is akin to running in place.

And you are still doing weight loss traing. The progression isn't the action but the outcome.

Action - Doing LFR
Outcome - Getting higher ilvl/dps

Action - Weight Loss Training
Outcome - Less weight.

So yes that is progression. I can keep doing content I enjoy and keep progressing my characters power.

[primalmatter]

And you are still doing weight loss traing. The progression isn't the action but the outcome.

Action - Doing LFR
Outcome - Getting higher ilvl/dps

Action - Weight Loss Training
Outcome - Less weight.

So yes that is progression. I can keep doing content I enjoy and keep progressing my characters power.

Its a game though... you are not getting healthier doing the same thing over and over again.

[Jtbrig7390]

Its a game though... you are not getting healthier doing the same thing over and over again.

Its called a example and it proved your comment wrong.

While doing LFR the gear it provides will progress your characters power.

pro·gres·sion
prəˈɡreSHən/
noun
a movement or development toward a destination or a more advanced state, especially gradually or in stages.
"the normal progression from junior to senior status"
synonyms: progress, advancement, movement, passage, march; More

It is achieved by getting higher ilvl gear and improving your character. So like I said its progression because you gradually gain power.

[primalmatter]

So you want to continually gain power without ever leaving the content you have run dozens if not hundreds of times already... you just want it easier and easier each time?

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye.

[Jtbrig7390]

So you want to continually gain power without ever leaving the content you have run dozens if not hundreds of times already... you just want it easier and easier each time?

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye.

Oh we won't and ya I do because it will give me power to solo other content that I find challenge in.

Its going to be fun soloing WOD content just like I had fun soloing MOP content. NM+ raiding holds no interest to me and Mythic + doesn't ether. Now if they made some or all of that queable I would consider it.

But they haven't so I don't, If LFG was different then I would. But my experince with LFG in WOD was enough to avoid it from now on.

[primalmatter]

Oh we won't and ya I do because it will give me power to solo other content that I find challenge in.

Its going to be fun soloing WOD content just like I had fun soloing MOP content.

You won't really be soloing much with wod...

There is maybe one boss you can do without the tank mechanic killing you in raids. As for dungeons you can solo them currently already.

[Cebel]

you really are jaded man :P

its more of enter a contest, and instead of winning a free trip to vegas all paid, you got a 100$ gift card to some place

sure if that place is the fucking dollar general, which doesnt have any fucking thing you want.

[Jtbrig7390]

You won't really be soloing much with wod...

There is maybe one boss you can do without the tank mechanic killing you in raids. As for dungeons you can solo them currently already.

Just depends really. Just like raids before going in solo some fights abilitys don't happen or there is ways around them.

Going Prot helped me alot with mist content. Also I know I can solo them currently I already have started .

Trying to figure the stuff out is part of the fun.

[FertsBlert]

The problem with the extreme swings available via this system is those with the eternal burning hatred of the RNG gods will be shit out of luck, those who the Gods get down on their knees and blow for just showing up will be in heaven.... and 10-20 ilvls in front with the associated increase in output and survivability. Now guess which camp I'm in?

Under the older system while it may take me far longer to eventually obtain an item as well (4 months to eventually see any fucking pants in SoO doing it weekly and doing the bloody Celestials weekly as well) it brings me up to par with my raid, under this system I ain't never catching up.

There is also the problem that WoW is not a random loot drop dungeon crawler the source for the loot you are after you is often locked, you can't just keep farming until you eventually get what you need.

[Eapoe]

I feel like this is an idea much like the garrison idea: looks great on paper and sounds great in theory. The issue comes with the burnout associated to it. Yes, there's a great feeling when you see an item drop that is absolute BiS, but there's also a sense of let down when you see the same plain Jane vanilla piece drop the 1000th time. You start to feel "what's the point, why am I doing this to myself?"
I understand it's a way to prolong content and get people in the world, but this could easily backfire on the players and cause longer periods of no new content and just grinding the same thing over and over with an ever increasing length of content gaps. It's a great idea for D3 that contains seasons and offers new challenges every season and rearranges/balances the in game gear; but, in a game like WoW where there is a literal cap (mythic+ does not offer any more incentive after a certain level completed and mythic raids won't get harder) it more than likely will not kee players held over the way devs are going for.

[demonhunter50]

I don't think that the RNG loot is a good thing and I hate it(Warforged,Prismatic socket,Tertiarty).I loved the MOP-WOTLK system where I had control over my items(Enchants,upgrades and colored sockets).Personally I'm sure that one of the reasons players left is the simplified rng itemization which we have in WOD.I would love to see a more in depth loot system where we can truly customize our gear with a lot of options but unfortunately the RNG loot looks like a permanent decision for all the wrong reasons Blizzard mentioned(exciting and surprising factor which is bullshit).

[Mlz]

Think of it this way; how would you feel if you were helping gear a friend up in a dungeon you can do pretty easily, and get an upgrade yourself that will help you in your main raid or dungeon progression? Will you feel it was dumb, because this is the 50th time you've done this dungeon? How happy will your friend be for you? Is it a dumb, dull moment, or something you'd share with people and remember?

We already had this in WoD with mythic dungeons having a chance to drop an effectively 735 item with bis stats and a gem socket or hunters getting that trinket from Iron Docks (that looks bis at least on paper, I don't play hunter so I don't know exactly). The chance for the drop happening is so abyssimaly low that even if it did happen, it would be just another "ah great, at least running this shit dungeon for the 500th time wasn't a complete waste of time". Or well, I never bothered running them anwyay after I upgraded my gear - the chance to get something to drop worked backwards in terms of motivation. Similarly, I didn't farm world boss mounts when I only had one character but now I started doing that because I have 30 chances to win every week.