[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Gallahadd]

Funny thought: With her latest arc Dany has come full circle, rendering everything she's done since season one essentially moot.

Let's think it through:

Season 1: she is married off to Khal Drogo in exchange for an army. She has a mighty Khalasar and her husband the Khal pledges to take her Khalasar west to reclaim her throne. Khal Drogo dies. The Khalasar all fuck off. However, dragons hatch.

Seasons 2-5: Dany goes through various states in Essos. Gaining an army, losing, regaining, then eventually locking up her dragons, while the biggest meanest one flies off. She is then "Rescued" from the fighting pits, by aforementioned big mean dragon who then drops her right in the middle of a new, different Khalasar.

Season 6: she sets the Khals on fire and takes their Khalasar, and pledges to use her new Khalasar to retake the Iron Throne.

Putting her right back in the same place she was at the end of season 1. Headed to Westeroes at the head of a slightly larger army than she had before, to attempt to take the throne.

So what was the fucking point of 95% of her plot line is Essos? What did ANYTHING that happened in Slaver's bay after her recruiting the Unsullied have to do with anything? All it proved was that she really doesn't know how to manage a kingdom and that frankly if she DOES win in the end, Westeroes is just as fucked as Essos is now.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

So what was the fucking point of 95% of her plot line is Essos? What did ANYTHING that happened in Slaver's bay after her recruiting the Unsullied have to do with anything? All it proved was that she really doesn't know how to manage a kingdom and that frankly if she DOES win in the end, Westeroes is just as fucked as Essos is now.

There was no point, besides putting off the inevitable.

What little - if any - character development she went through did nothing to make her a better ruler. Before she married Drogo, Tyrion (and even Littlefinger, I'm not kidding) would have ruled Westeros better than her. As of now, Tyrion and Littlefinger still would rule Westeros better than her, and given how she's progressed in the books, by the end of the series Tyrion and Littlefinger would still rule Westeros better in her.

So why has Dany stayed grounded in Essos all this time? It seems like the writers (both Martin's team back then, and the writers of the show now) didn't want to put up with the hassle of thinking through the hundreds of different reactions and scenarios that would erupt in the event she actually made landfall in Westeros during the political conflict (having her invoke a Big Damn Heroes moment and help save Westeros while the Walkers are invading would be in contrast very simple and straightforward to write), so IMO it seems like the ASOIAF universe (read: the authors) conspired against her to delay her invasion and keep things from getting too complicated.

[Sorshen]

Imagine Dany getting killed since she hasn't had any true character development in the last 2 seasons. Might free up some time and money for more interesting characters that the show has completely ignored.

Plot armor.


Also Tyrion was arguably the best Hand of the King. Hope he gets the job again.

[Tempguy]

Can't wait for the most irrelevant Stark to be shot in the back by Ramsey tomorrow night.

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Imagine Dany getting killed since she hasn't had any true character development in the last 2 seasons. Might free up some time and money for more interesting characters that the show has completely ignored.

Tell me this at season 2 and I would have rioted.

Tell me now and I am already doing my Indian dance and wishing for this to pass. I hope the actress gets more jobs and all,but Dany needs to die.

[Snuke]

Plot armor.


Also Tyrion was arguably the best Hand of the King. Hope he gets the job again.

Tyrion is arguably the best character on the entire show.

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Tell me this at season 2 and I would have rioted.

Tell me now and I am already doing my Indian dance and wishing for this to pass. I hope the actress gets more jobs and all,but Dany needs to die.

Kind of sad that she's fallen so far in the last 4 seasons in terms of writing and character development.

[Sooba]

Presumably there will be a certain element of "assumption of the crown by right of conquest" at some point in the show.

You're most likely right. And this thread will riot, because there's one group of people who have expressly been headed in that direction... and they've been bad pussies...

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Plot armor.

I would dearly love to know what is supposed to be the dividing line between "plot armor" and lasting through (most) of a show/book, for some people. Not everyone can die an untimely intrigue-laden death.

The show I might grant you, as it's been a bit hackneyed on her storyline at points. But book-Dany has had some pretty rough / scarring moments and feels vulnerable. Not really encased in plot at all.

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There was no point, besides putting off the inevitable.

What little - if any - character development she went through did nothing to make her a better ruler. Before she married Drogo, Tyrion (and even Littlefinger, I'm not kidding) would have ruled Westeros better than her. As of now, Tyrion and Littlefinger still would rule Westeros better than her, and given how she's progressed in the books, by the end of the series Tyrion and Littlefinger would still rule Westeros better in her.

So why has Dany stayed grounded in Essos all this time? It seems like the writers (both Martin's team back then, and the writers of the show now) didn't want to put up with the hassle of thinking through the hundreds of different reactions and scenarios that would erupt in the event she actually made landfall in Westeros during the political conflict (having her invoke a Big Damn Heroes moment and help save Westeros while the Walkers are invading would be in contrast very simple and straightforward to write), so IMO it seems like the ASOIAF universe (read: the authors) conspired against her to delay her invasion and keep things from getting too complicated.

Perhaps her story isn't meant to be a progression of Dany turning into a wonderful ruler? I mean, I'm with you. She seems stalled, particularly in the show. But I've been questioning my assumption that that's where she's supposed to end up.

Book Dany at least seems to be flirting with the concept of the social contract and wrestling with the ultimate realization of what her dragons mean. The show lost all that by simply focusing on trying to turn her into a badass.

[eschatological]

I think the point of Dany will ultimately be about the assumption of power, IE that she's "owed" the throne because her father sat on it, and how fallacious that is, at least in the show.

In the books, as @Sooba linked in a video a couple pages back, the point of her arc is to undermine the idea that "might makes right," as she progresses from the idea that her being the Mother of Dragons gave her power to being simply a Mother to the oppressed and downtrodden. Selmy's character in the book is kind of her guiding light in that regard, if he also dies there, then she'll have to fight the other guiding star in her life, the inevitable madness of her House and the uncontrollable nature of her dragons.


I think it might actually be poignant in the books if Dany has to destroy her dragons in order to rule fairly and justly.

[Therougetitan]

Random question but what are the genders of the dragons? I'm assuming all male since they are named after male characters. Wouldn't that mean dragons will be extinct? Granted they could always just use stone eggs as an excuse.

[Tempguy]

My take on "plot armor"

Arya last episode.

Surviving by brute force, intelligence , alliance or what have you is fine. So long as it is established and built upon in the world you created. Like the mountain. H Ded, but you can argue he survived. But it wasn't some "I'm too damn special to die yet" thing. It makes sense. Even Jon makes sense. And he is skirting dangerously close to ha I got a full set of plot plate. I'd say he has plot mail over plot padded armor. Lol. All jokes aside, Beric paved that path and Jon is supposed to have been changed a bit. I do t see it, hence why I say he is really close.

Dany, I don't think she has plot armor, but fuck is her arc annoying. It's so over the top "I am the key character" that its out of plac in this show. In past seasons, people like that wound up dead. Bring too much attention on yourself, have no allies, and be stupid; means your life will be short. Case and point, Rob.

That is how I see plot armor. When a character can do shit that would have gotten others killed, but survives just fine, the plot armor shines bright.

I know some characters have plot armor( but they wear it beneath their clothes and don't flaunt it like Dany and Arya have been doing.

I feel like I am watching a guy who knows he is immortal go through life. "Why look to cross the road? I can't die. Why worry about assasins? I can't die. Why worry about being raped and killed by the Khals? I can't die. "

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Random question but what are the genders of the dragons? I'm assuming all male since they are named after male characters. Wouldn't that mean dragons will be extinct? Granted they could always just use stone eggs as an excuse.

Apparently they swap as needed Jurassic park style. Someone said something along the lines of "sometimes this way, sometimes that. A dragon is what it chooses to be". I butchered the hell out of it but they are basically lizards that chang sex when needed/wanted.

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I think the point of Dany will ultimately be about the assumption of power, IE that she's "owed" the throne because her father sat on it, and how fallacious that is, at least in the show.

In the books, as @Sooba linked in a video a couple pages back, the point of her arc is to undermine the idea that "might makes right," as she progresses from the idea that her being the Mother of Dragons gave her power to being simply a Mother to the oppressed and downtrodden. Selmy's character in the book is kind of her guiding light in that regard, if he also dies there, then she'll have to fight the other guiding star in her life, the inevitable madness of her House and the uncontrollable nature of her dragons.


I think it might actually be poignant in the books if Dany has to destroy her dragons in order to rule fairly and justly.

This is the only thing that can save her arc in my eyes. If she is built up to fall hard.

However, I have seen that Hollywood still doesn't quite get it. And unless Mr Martin shits two books and finishes the series next year(and thus give them a source to go off) I won't hold my breath.

[eschatological]

I think she and/or her dragons have to fall hard to make sense in the books, yes. In the show, who knows, she might actually sit on the Iron Throne even though a previous season vision showed KL in ruins while her dragons ran amok.

[Gallahadd]

There was no point, besides putting off the inevitable.

Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well. I think Dany's whole plot has just been one giant stall for time since she convinced Drogo to invade.

Think about it... The whole point of the show is that the various factions/families argue amongst themselves while the real danger, the white walkers, grows every stronger and more prepared.

It would be kinda hard to show that, if everyone was United against Dany and her horde of Dothraki that had just invaded.

Although personally, if I was in charge I'd make the war vs the Dothraki the focus, then when everyone eventually unites and defeats them and it seems all happy... BOOM, the wall crumbles, White Walkers and their zombie army surge through and they realise the true enemy has only just appeared.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I think she and/or her dragons have to fall hard to make sense in the books, yes. In the show, who knows, she might actually sit on the Iron Throne even though a previous season vision showed KL in ruins while her dragons ran amok.

Or she sits calmly on the throne while her dragons put KL to flame.

[Elim Garak]

Or she sits calmly on the throne while her dragons put KL to flame.

Thinking: "Burn them. Burn them all!"

[Sooba]

Random question but what are the genders of the dragons? I'm assuming all male since they are named after male characters. Wouldn't that mean dragons will be extinct? Granted they could always just use stone eggs as an excuse.

They're sort of genderless, from what I can recall. -- A Septon Barth called the gender of a dragon "fickle". Maester Aemon said "but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame".

They sound very much like clownfish. Their gender changes. It's unknown whether that's according to will, or under some sort of biochemical control.

[aarro]

SPOILERS__________________________________________________

Cant Believe John Snow dies again!! FFS!!!!!

[Val the Moofia Boss]

SPOILERS__________________________________________________

Cant Believe John Snow dies again!! FFS!!!!!

Dies again I wish!

[aarro]

A fine example why spoiler tags ain't allowed in this thread =/

What do you mean?

[RobertoCarlos]

Not sure if you guys and girls know but tonights episode is going to be Battle of the basterds. You may have missed all the marketing and spam about it. Just in case you were not going to watch episode 9, now I would. Because of you know...The big battle that is about to happen. Because people like battles right?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Not sure if you guys and girls know but tonights episode is going to be Battle of the basterds. You may have missed all the marketing and spam about it. Just in case you were not going to watch episode 9, now I would. Because of you know...The big battle that is about to happen. Because people like battles right?

I would totally have forgotten to watch GoT without your reminder

I wonder, if it would still be the battle of the bastards if Ramsay's parents had been married? Given that Ramsay is a bastard in the other use of the word

[Sakred]

Dies again I wish!

How edgy af

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Not sure if you guys and girls know but tonights episode is going to be Battle of the basterds. You may have missed all the marketing and spam about it. Just in case you were not going to watch episode 9, now I would. Because of you know...The big battle that is about to happen. Because people like battles right?

I will be pumpin my rod in the most vigorous of manners.