Simulated sine wave UPS with Active PFC PSU's

[aktorsyl]

I just can't seem to stop running into strangeness with the power issues lately.

Okay so. I have a Seasonic 750W (M12II) PSU. From what I can tell, it has active PFC... which is a good thing. However, today I connected up a UPS I got (line-interactive simulated sine wave 2000VA with AVR). I got the UPS a while back for my entertainment centre but never actually used it, until today. Main purpose of the UPS is to provide surge protection as well as brownout and undervoltage protection.

So, I connected everything up, made sure the UPS had a full charge, and started testing. Did 5 tests in total. With all the tests, the battery kicked in and the PC stayed on without problems. However, 2 of those 5 tests yielded a strange result: while the PC stayed on (and even my USB headset stayed on), my USB keyboard lost power for a split second. Naturally, this made me start googling. Extensively.

From what I could surmise, Active PFC PSU's do NOT play well with simulated sine wave UPS's. In some cases, the battery kicking in would make the PSU think that it's receiving dirty power and result in an immediate shutdown. And apparently, in some other cases, it can even result in damage to the PSU and other PC components - especially if it's running off the battery for more than a few seconds, and also especially if you're in a 220V country (like I am).

I say "apparently" because as usual, the Internet seems to be heavily conflicted on the issue. So my question to you guys: Do any of you have experience with a Seasonic PSU (preferably specifically the M12II 750W model) and simulated sine wave UPS's? Can they ACTUALLY damage the PSU? I'd hate to just have the UPS go back to the closet and gather dust, but I also sure as hell don't want to risk my PC - which is a brand new rig. Online or pure sine UPS's are out of the question unfortunately.. locally they are priced to the point of wtfno.

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UPDATE: Think it's safer to go for this option (as far as over-and-undervoltage protection is concerned).

http://www.clearline.co.za/products/...er-tripconnect

The price is in ZAR, but in USD it would be equivalent to about $70 or so. It features overvoltage and undervoltage protection, with a 10-second delay to ensure the supply is stable before restoring power. I phoned the manufacturer (it's a local OEM) and confirmed most of the specs. They do have more advanced and more expensive models, but the only real difference between this one and those is the added protection for CAT5E and phone cables, which I don't need.

Spec sheet as follows:

[Evildeffy]

Whilst I do not have any experience with Seasonic PSUs and simulated sinus wave UPS devices I can tell you about my experience with similar tech.

Often when I installed HP servers, being rackmounted or tower, they had PSUs from certain series which had the problem you're describing AND just shutting off completely.
This was in combination with APC UPS devices which had a simulated sinus wave.

This combination (with the power gap you're referring to) actually toasted 2 x 750W server PSUs in a tower (primary and redundant one).
The PSU did not like the simulated sinus wave at all and it caused it to flicker and literally blow capacitors.

APC listed the model as certified with the specific server it occurred with but clearly wasn't.
HP replaced the PSUs, APC sent us 2 new UPSes which were double the cost of the previous ones (old ones were 400 euros each, new were 800 each).
The new units did not have a simulated wave but an actual analogue sinus wave, haven't had issues since.

I got to keep the 2 old UPS devices Plenty of PSUs whom work perfectly fine with it.

Moral of the story: If it was anything like what I had with 2 HP servers (though to be fair this was 7 years ago) then yes it is damaging.

[aktorsyl]

Thanks for the info. I wish retailers would make it clear that simulated sine wave does not play well with Active-PFC. But so we learn.

In regards to the surge protector I mentioned, do you think it's a good alternative?

[Evildeffy]

Thanks for the info. I wish retailers would make it clear that simulated sine wave does not play well with Active-PFC. But so we learn.

In regards to the surge protector I mentioned, do you think it's a good alternative?

I honestly have no idea, most of those types are junk.
But I don't know the brand and I simply work with too many UPS devices which have that built-in.

If it does what it says on the tin it's fine but it won't protect your PSU from the simulated sinus.

[westom]

In regards to the surge protector I mentioned, do you think it's a good alternative?

How many joules does it claim to absorb? Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Did that discrepancy cause anyone to be concerned? No. Because most who make recommendations routinely ignore numbers.

Urban myths assume 'dirty' power can damage Active PFC circuits. They just know because others said so. What part in that PFC circuit is damaged? Never mentioned for one simple reason. Fiction writers invented bad science fiction to create fear.

If AC power interrupted DC voltages, then a computer's power controller immediately halts the CPU and order a PSU off. It did not happen because DC voltages did not glitch (or that hardware was defective when purchased).

All appliances have robust protection. A surge that is hundreds of joules is simply converted to rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power semiconductors. Did myths to promote a UPS forget to mention electronics are not harmed by surges that can destroy that protector? Reread that sentence. Your concern is another surge that can overwhelm existing robust protection. A UPS does not claim and will not discuss that type of surge. Honesty would harm sales.

AVR? Incandescent bulbs can dim to 40% intensity. Even voltage that low is sufficient for any computer. Because computers already contain robust AVR. Did anyone forget to mention AVR is what a PSU does?

Why does you phone and other portable electronics work just fine on any voltage from 85 to 265 volts? AVR already exists.

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved during a blackout. It protects a computer - because it only protects unsaved data. It does nothing for saved data or hardware. Since that protection already exists inside every computer. UPS is to protect unsaved data - nothing more.

Your concern is another and rare surge that can overwhelm robust protection inside the computer and all other appliances. How often are you replacing clocks, LED bulbs, bathroom GFCI, and dishwasher due to surges? Never? Then why do so many fear surges that occur every hour? Junk science creates myths. How many know by ignoring facts and numbers?

If that computer needs protection, then everything needs that protection - including a UPS. Only a 'whole house' solution provides that protection - for about $1 per protected appliance. Best protection is also tens of times less expensive.

Simulated sine wave does not damage hardware. Active PFC gets confused and powers off is power is too dirty - without damage. Ignore fears and outright lies that promoted destructive sine waves. Either it works or it does not. Nothing more. Hardware protection is provided by something completely different - less expensive - and unknown to an overwhelming majority who make recommendations by ignoring spec numbers.

[Snuke]

How many joules does it claim to absorb? Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Did that discrepancy cause anyone to be concerned? No. Because most who make recommendations routinely ignore numbers.

Urban myths assume 'dirty' power can damage Active PFC circuits. They just know because others said so. What part in that PFC circuit is damaged? Never mentioned for one simple reason. Fiction writers invented bad science fiction to create fear.

If AC power interrupted DC voltages, then a computer's power controller immediately halts the CPU and order a PSU off. It did not happen because DC voltages did not glitch (or that hardware was defective when purchased).

All appliances have robust protection. A surge that is hundreds of joules is simply converted to rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power semiconductors. Did myths to promote a UPS forget to mention electronics are not harmed by surges that can destroy that protector? Reread that sentence. Your concern is another surge that can overwhelm existing robust protection. A UPS does not claim and will not discuss that type of surge. Honesty would harm sales.

AVR? Incandescent bulbs can dim to 40% intensity. Even voltage that low is sufficient for any computer. Because computers already contain robust AVR. Did anyone forget to mention AVR is what a PSU does?

Why does you phone and other portable electronics work just fine on any voltage from 85 to 265 volts? AVR already exists.

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved during a blackout. It protects a computer - because it only protects unsaved data. It does nothing for saved data or hardware. Since that protection already exists inside every computer. UPS is to protect unsaved data - nothing more.

Your concern is another and rare surge that can overwhelm robust protection inside the computer and all other appliances. How often are you replacing clocks, LED bulbs, bathroom GFCI, and dishwasher due to surges? Never? Then why do so many fear surges that occur every hour? Junk science creates myths. How many know by ignoring facts and numbers?

If that computer needs protection, then everything needs that protection - including a UPS. Only a 'whole house' solution provides that protection - for about $1 per protected appliance. Best protection is also tens of times less expensive.

Simulated sine wave does not damage hardware. Active PFC gets confused and powers off is power is too dirty - without damage. Ignore fears and outright lies that promoted destructive sine waves. Either it works or it does not. Nothing more. Hardware protection is provided by something completely different - less expensive - and unknown to an overwhelming majority who make recommendations by ignoring spec numbers.

If the surge is that high then all that really matters is the $$ the company that made the surge protection pays out for damaged hardware. UPS are nice and all, but do you really want a fire hazard sitting on your floor that you have to replace every so often? I can't recall the last time a surge actually fried any of my electronics. Maybe back in the 80's?

Just for people's information, you have to replace a UPS every 3-5 years... Which means they really aren't a wise investment unless you absolutely MUST have one.

[westom]

If the surge is that high then all that really matters is the $$ the company that made the surge protection pays out for damaged hardware.

Why pay for damage when their protector does not even claim that protection? Read its fine print. Or learn from many who tried. Warranty for near zero protectors has many fine print exemptions. All that really matters is something completely different, also called a surge protector, that claims that protection - with numbers.

[Snuke]

Why pay for damage when their protector does not even claim that protection? Read its fine print. Or learn from many who tried. Warranty for near zero protectors has many fine print exemptions. All that really matters is something completely different, also called a surge protector, that claims that protection - with numbers.

It's true that some companies do everything possible to avoid paying out their warranties. There are others that will most assuredly pay out. The bottom line is that a decent surge protector is a better investment than a UPS as the UPS needs to be replaced far more often and costs quite a bit more.

[westom]

The bottom line is that a decent surge protector is a better investment than a UPS as the UPS needs to be replaced far more often and costs quite a bit more.

All that really matters is something completely different, also called a surge protector, that claims that protection - with numbers. So where are these numbers?

A protector adjacent to an appliance must either 'block' or 'absorb' that surge. How does its 2 cm protector part 'block' what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How does its hundreds or a thousand joules 'absorb' a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. What number defines a 'decent' protector?

This protector might cost $25 or $60. Does that mean it is better? Monster will sell an equivalent product for $85 or $100. Is that better? All are electrically equivalent to one selling for $10 in Walmart. What number defines 'decent'? These plug-in protector can have decent or obscene profit margins. Does that mean better protection? No.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly. Concern is a rare surge that can overwhelm robust protection inside a computer and all other appliances. That includes protecting clocks, LED bulbs, bathroom GFCI, refrigerator, furnace, and dishwasher. What protects them? If anything needs protection, then everything needs that protection. What defines a decent protector?

Sine wave and AVR are promoted on misguided fears created by hearsay, wild speculation, sales brochures, and advertising - without numbers. Something completely different is called a protector. But that was never mentioned. It does not exist adjacent to an appliance where it can even make appliance damage easier. When a near zero joules protector is confronted by a potentially destructive surge, then how does it 'block' or 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? Fire is one possibility. What number defines 'decent'?

[Snuke]

All that really matters is something completely different, also called a surge protector, that claims that protection - with numbers. So where are these numbers?

A protector adjacent to an appliance must either 'block' or 'absorb' that surge. How does its 2 cm protector part 'block' what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How does its hundreds or a thousand joules 'absorb' a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. What number defines a 'decent' protector?

This protector might cost $25 or $60. Does that mean it is better? Monster will sell an equivalent product for $85 or $100. Is that better? All are electrically equivalent to one selling for $10 in Walmart. What number defines 'decent'? These plug-in protector can have decent or obscene profit margins. Does that mean better protection? No.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly. Concern is a rare surge that can overwhelm robust protection inside a computer and all other appliances. That includes protecting clocks, LED bulbs, bathroom GFCI, refrigerator, furnace, and dishwasher. What protects them? If anything needs protection, then everything needs that protection. What defines a decent protector?

Sine wave and AVR are promoted on misguided fears created by hearsay, wild speculation, sales brochures, and advertising - without numbers. Something completely different is called a protector. But that was never mentioned. It does not exist adjacent to an appliance where it can even make appliance damage easier. When a near zero joules protector is confronted by a potentially destructive surge, then how does it 'block' or 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? Fire is one possibility. What number defines 'decent'?

I've had many quality protectors that did their job when lightning struck. Basic research is basic, so long as you're not basic.

http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/

[Masark]

Just for people's information, you have to replace a UPS every 3-5 years... Which means they really aren't a wise investment unless you absolutely MUST have one.

No, you might need to replace the battery, not the entire unit. Every UPS worth buying has user-replaceable batteries.

How often you need to replace the battery depends on the duty cycle. The deeper and more frequent the discharges (lead-acid hates deep discharge. Ask anyone who has left their car's headlights on and needed a new battery), the heavier the wear on the battery and the sooner you'll need a new one.

If it's only used briefly or infrequently, it'll last a long time. Mine mostly carries me through brownouts and a sustained outage maybe once or twice a year. It's been going for 10 years on its original battery.

A protector adjacent to an appliance must either 'block' or 'absorb' that surge. How does its 2 cm protector part 'block' what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How does its hundreds or a thousand joules 'absorb' a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. What number defines a 'decent' protector?

"Block" and "absorb" aren't the only two options. There's a third one : redirect. Specifically, redirect the surge to ground through a parallel circuit opened by some voltage-sensitive mechanism like a varistor, avalanche diode, an old fashioned spark gap, etc.

The Joules rating is not how much it can redirect. It's how much it can redirect without the protector being destroyed, at which point it becomes sacrificial equipment.

[westom]

I've had many quality protectors that did their job when lightning struck.

So an adjacent appliance was protected because all other appliances were damaged? That must be for your observation to have validity. Classic junk science is to ignore other facts to justify a conclusion. To *know* protection existed means all other appliances - dishwasher, clocks, furnace, refrigerator, bathroom GFCIs - all unprotected appliances were destroyed. Your conclusions only demonstrate you can be manipulate into believing what they want you to believe.

The informed demand perspective - the numbers. Provided numbers say protection inside appliances is as robust or more robust than your protector. What probably did protection? The appliance protected itself. Internal protection is often superior to what that plug-in device even claims to do. Did you also ignore those numbers?

Did a surge really exist? You do not even say how you know a surge existed. Also common when one is easily manipulated - forgets how to think for himself. Conclusions without saying why are classic junk science reasoning. Naivety is even why advertising and politicians intentionally lie - because so many still believe them.

That wirecutter.com citation could not be a better sales scam. They do not even say how how tests were conducted. They have no numbers - meaning the target audience is only consumers that are most easily scammed. They notes most protectors disconnect protector parts and leave a surge still connected to appliances. But then imply that disconnecting an appliance somehow does protection. How does that millimeters 'disconnect' gap stop what three miles of sky could not? Why did you not even ask that damning question? Because that citation is targeting people who wait to be told how to think. They are not targeting the informed. And it clearly was not written by an engineer. Engineers would say why with numbers. It is classic text written by a marketing promoter. wirecutter.com citation is a perfect example of how to scam consumers with half truths and lies.

How do you know a surge even existed? Why did that surge not destroy every unprotected appliance? Where are numbers that says how and why you had protection? Where are spec numbers in your citation. Basic is that you have even violated what was taught in junior high science to know something. Demonstrated is why observation so easily creates myths and lies. And that you do not know what is always required to know something - the numbers.

Protector adjacent to an appliance does not claim to protect from destructive surges - when science and numbers exist. Others who wait to be told how to think - who do not even demand reasons why with numbers - can be told how to think. Numbers (and facts in your post) suggest protection already inside appliances can be superior to those plug-in devices. Scams are that easily promoted.



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"Block" and "absorb" aren't the only two options. There's a third one : redirect. Specifically, redirect the surge to ground through a parallel circuit opened by some voltage-sensitive mechanism like a varistor, avalanche diode, an old fashioned spark gap, etc.

A protector adjacent to an appliance can 'redirect' to earth ground. It 'redirects' destructively into an adjacent appliance. Numbers. A 5000 volt surge approaches on a black (hot) wire. A protector (typical let-through voltage is 330) 'redirects' that surge onto the green (safety ground - not earth ground) and white (neutral) wires. Other wires are at 4670 volts. That surge is still hunting for earth ground. Now that surge has even more destructive paths through an adjacent appliance to earth. Where is this protection?

We do this stuff by even identifying and replacing damaged internal parts. Best protection inside a PSU is compromised when a surge is redirected directly into a motherboard.

Honest recommendations always include numbers. A plug-in protector (or UPS) does not have a low impedance connection to earth. Safety ground has excessive impedance. Wire is too long, too many sharp bends, splices, and maybe even metallic conduit. A simple 50 foot Romex connection from wall receptacle to breaker box can be less than 0.2 ohms resistance - and about 120 ohms impedance. During a trivial 100 amp surge, 120 ohms times 100 amps means a wall receptacle safety ground might be something less than 12,000 volts.

Engineers say why with numbers (another comment about that bogus wirecutter.com citations). Always ignore recommendations without numbers. 12,000 volts should have everyone's attention.

A completely different device, unfortunately also called a surge protector, does not protect by 'blocking' or 'absorbing'. A 'whole house' solution 'redirects' IF connected low impedance (ie. less than 10 foot) to single point earth ground. Notice so many critical requirements not found with and ignored to promote ineffective plug-in protectors. Low impedance (ie wire has no sharp bends) makes obvious why a plug-in protector can only 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. Single point earth ground (which is not a receptacle safety ground) actually does protection. That is what harmlessly 'absorbs' hundreds of thousands of joules. An effective protector is a low impedance connection to what actually does protection.

Plug-in protectors can only 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. Effective protectors do not do protection. Effective protectors connect hundreds of thousands of joules to what actually does protection - single point earth ground.

Protection from direct lightning strikes has been routine for over 100 years. That means selecting a protector with numbers that actually claim protection. Lightning may be 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Nothing must be damaged by a surge.

More numbers. Effective 'whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why would anyone spend $26 or $80 for protectors that do not even claim effective protection? Because so many ignore facts and numbers - all but want to be scammed. Many ignore what was well understood over 100 years ago. A properly earthed solution is always found in facilities that cannot have damage.

A protector that 'redirects' must have something to redirect to. Single point earth ground (and not to a wall receptacle safety ground). Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate without damage to anything - appliance or protector. Then a surge current is not anywhere inside the building. Best protection even costs tens of times less money. Protects everything. As demonstrated by plenty of facts with numbers.

For those who need soundbytes. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.