20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Radaney]

I still believe the removal of 10man end game is one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard have ever done with this game.

[Relapses]

There you go, that's my entire point. I guess burnout wasn't the right word to use, the lower difficulties indeed take no time at all, but in general I have no desire to clear the same raid more than once anymore. This doesn't concern farm though, as I would be much less tired of the same instance if it was only one difficulty, ie clearing it only once a week, discounting alts if you're into them. New difficulty of the same instance is not progression for me, it's repetition.

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding the actual difficulty of Mythic, of which I have no experience from, I've never seen this from an end boss in the highest difficulty prior to WoD. 3 and a half minutes?

Mythic HFC speed kills are the result of the legendary ring being so stupidly broken on classes with short windows of burst, like Mages. Honestly, the most impressive thing about these kills is the guilds who are able to wrangle up that many geared Mages for a single kill. The same thing happened in SoO to a smaller extent with Warlocks, especially on fights like Protectors and Dark Shamans.

[Glorious Leader]

It's another example of a decision done in the best interests of the developers but is questionable how it's better for players.

[Alydael]

It wasnt meant as in insult it was meant as a reality check, I dont get why people just dont get that yes while it is possible it requires so much time and resources do be able to do it its just not worth is as they have other things to work on (in before "ye but they only had raids in wod so what did they have to work on beside raids?" line people like to use) If you have no idea about game developments then dont bother to even start a discussion on the matter.


Cmon now your just making a a fool out of yourself, is your name Rym by any chance? you answered your own question in the same sentence.

Once again, since all you can do is insult people, without offering anything meaningful. What mechanic did you see in WOD mythic that was so interesting and unique that you feel it could not have been done in a "flex size" and needed strictly 20 players......

Blizzard said they wanted to introduce new and "interesting" mechanics to mythic and they just couldn't do it in flex. What mechanic did you see in WOD mythic that fits this description? I can't think of one (through all thew WOD mythic bosses) really.....

- - - Updated - - -

It's another example of a decision done in the best interests of the developers but is questionable how it's better for players.

I agree 100%

[Thorim]

Plus, fixed raid size makes space for more interesting mechanics that either would not be possible or would not be fun in a different raid size.

Blizz also said this when they announced it....their devs had so many awesome ideas for bosses but they wouldn't do it because of the 10/25 thing...so....where are they? I stopped about 2 months into WOD, came back a few weeks ago and have cleared 7 mythics so far in HFC...WHERE are the 'awesome new interesting mechanics'? Have there even been any all expac? HFC mythics seem almost boring and dumbed down compared to how old heroic mode was in wrath/cata/MOP.

[Vestig3]

"flex size"

Why do you keep saying flex size instead of 10/25 because it makes people think your talking about flex as it currently is if thats what you mean then there is no point is even trying to explain to you why its not possible to tune bosses in your so called "flex"

Also its funny how some people talk about how it currently is with mythic but some people forget that the ring caused a lot of fights to be super boring and easy and who cares how interesting mechanics are, the focus should be on tuning fights tightly to make people work for kills.

[Cosmic Janitor]

It was another nail in my WoW-coffin. I didn't even bother to stay long enough after WoD's release to raid because they once again fucked over the raid we build and maintained. But I hear the encounters were supposedly good, though frankly people hardly ever said anything other than that, so I'm not sure how much of that needs to be ascribed to fanboiism, or the game formula in general compared to the new raid size.

[Deleted]

There you go, that's my entire point. I guess burnout wasn't the right word to use, the lower difficulties indeed take no time at all, but in general I have no desire to clear the same raid more than once anymore. This doesn't concern farm though, as I would be much less tired of the same instance if it was only one difficulty, ie clearing it only once a week, discounting alts if you're into them. New difficulty of the same instance is not progression for me, it's repetition.

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding the actual difficulty of Mythic, of which I have no experience from, I've never seen this from an end boss in the highest difficulty prior to WoD. 3 and a half minutes?

For one it's like 13 months into the tier.
Secondly, this guild is all about speed kills.
Thirdly, 20 fully upgraded rings with a specific comp consisting of mages to zerg him.
Fourth, this would literally be impossible at the beginning of the tier. Our kill was like 10 minutes and that was top 150 mythic kill or so.
It's clear that you haven't done mythic, but don't assume that this is how it ordinarily is. Surprises me you're not wondering why they have that many mages stacked.

[Alydael]

Why do you keep saying flex size instead of 10/25 because it makes people think your talking about flex as it currently is if thats what you mean then there is no point is even trying to explain to you why its not possible to tune bosses in your so called "flex"

I am sorry that people can not follow, or don't remember how it worked in MOP. For those people: Mythic (as it is in WOD) used to be heroic in MOP. Heroic in MOP was "flex size" which means you could bring any number from 10-25 players and the boss would "adjust" to the raid size.

Blizzard then set the size of the mythic raid in WOD to 20, which resulted in the breaking up of guilds and raid teams. Blizzard claimed that this would allow them to make new and interesting boss mechanics in WOD. Most players felt that Blizzard did this so that it would take them less work to balance a boss and it had nothing to do with new and interesting mechanics.

The question I was asking Vestig3 (and anyone else really) was: did you notice any new and interesting mechanics (like Blizzard promised) in WOD that you do not think would have been possible with the "flex size" set up of the mythic equivalent of raiding in SoO?

Although I did enjoy raiding in WOD, I did not notice any mechanic that I really thought could not have been done with flex size.

[Vestig3]

did you notice any new and interesting mechanics (like Blizzard promised) in WOD that you do not think would have been possible with the "flex size" set up of the mythic equivalent of raiding in SoO?

Mechanics? no but tuning? yes and in the end for me as a raiders thats what its all about getting the boss to 0% regardless if he swings a big stick at me or rolls over and then swings it at me, i stopped caring for mechanics after Wotlk, also its not the mechanics they could or not could have done for flex its the tuning they couldnt have done for flex.

[PassingBy]

It is quite clear that mythic fights require the most tuning and design effort to be hard enough and interesting enough.

Previously blizz had to tune those encounters for two different raid sizes.
Which was leading to some encounters being too hard or too easy in one difficulty or another.
While it also made it harder for the devs to fine tune the encounters.

Now we have a flexible raid size up to mythic, with the ability to kill as many bosses as you want, and in any order that you want, which is perfect for the people that can't raid on a schedule.
I mean I can log on - just kill Archi for the ring upgrade, and that's it.
I can skip the bosses I don't need. I can find a pug raid almost for everything I need.

And then there is the mythic raiding for those, that want a harder challenge, people that want to invest time and effort.

I'd say mythic raiding was one of the only things that actually worked in this expansion.

I don't think that switchable difficulty is the best solution. I'd rather have and Ulduar'ish way of raiding, where the difficulty of the encounter changed depending on how you do it. With Heroic being the normal difficulty, and Mythic being the harder one.
While the normal difficulty would be a queable LFR kind of raid.

[Alydael]

Mechanics? no but tuning? yes and in the end for me as a raiders thats what its all about getting the boss to 0% regardless if he swings a big stick at me or rolls over and then swings it at me, i stopped caring for mechanics after Wotlk, also its not the mechanics they could or not could have done for flex its the tuning they couldnt have done for flex.

I haven't noticed a big difference in tuning from SoO to WOD. In fact, you are the first person that I heard actually claiming there was even a difference at all.

As for mechanics, Blizzard said that, not me. That was part of their rationale for the size change. Make of it what you will.

[Thorim]

I haven't noticed a big difference in tuning from SoO to WOD. In fact, you are the first person that I heard actually claiming there was even a difference at all.

As for mechanics, Blizzard said that, not me. That was part of their rationale for the size change. Make of it what you will.

So far the mythics have seemed a LOT easier than previous 'heroic' mode encounters to me at least. The 'tuning' excuse and 'new mechanics' excuse are clearly just BS, it's all about lessening the workload on time spent balancing encounters.

[Relapses]

So far the mythics have seemed a LOT easier than previous 'heroic' mode encounters to me at least. The 'tuning' excuse and 'new mechanics' excuse are clearly just BS, it's all about lessening the workload on time spent balancing encounters.

Because two separate raid sizes with one encounter size being either easier or more difficult than the other was somehow "balanced," right?

[Thorim]

I thought it's clear they didn't do 20 man for "new mechanics". Mechanics evolve with the game.

They specifically said multiple times at blizzcon their devs had 'so many cool ideas' they couldn't implement due to it not working on one or the other size. It was one of the big reasons along side balancing.

[Voco]

I am sorry that people can not follow, or don't remember how it worked in MOP. For those people: Mythic (as it is in WOD) used to be heroic in MOP. Heroic in MOP was "flex size" which means you could bring any number from 10-25 players and the boss would "adjust" to the raid size.

No. The raid difficulties in SoO were LFR, the newly introduced Flex, Normal, and Heroic. LFR filled to 25 people. Flex scaled from 10-25(cant remember if it was 30). Normal was fixed raids of 10 or 25. Heroic was fixed raids of 10 or 25. They did not scale like you are saying for heroic. That was a newly introduced mechanic for WoD. Stop spouting bullshit, if you raided in MoP you would know this.

[Alydael]

No. The raid difficulties in SoO were LFR, the newly introduced Flex, Normal, and Heroic. LFR filled to 25 people. Flex scaled from 10-25(cant remember if it was 30). Normal was fixed raids of 10 or 25. Heroic was fixed raids of 10 or 25. They did not scale like you are saying for heroic. That was a newly introduced mechanic for WoD. Stop spouting bullshit, if you raided in MoP you would know this.

I have raided since vanilla. The sizes and difficulties have changed so many times through the x-pacs it is a little difficult to keep track. You could curse me out for mixing it up, but WOW is not my main focus in life (especially not raid sizes from raids in the the last x-pac). Still doesn't change the validity of the mechanics/ size argument.

[Phunkle]

I thought it's clear they didn't do 20 man for "new mechanics". Mechanics evolve with the game.

It's because it's easier to balance for a fixed raid size. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

As for the guild breakups, of which I know first hand as i barely saved my alt's guild from oblivion 2-3 times in WoD, that's not because of the fixed raid size at all. It's because lack of recruitment opportunity on dead realms.

Fix dead realms so guilds can replace people as needed.

Let me give you an example:

- my main realm, "Recruiting Mage and Rogue for Legion Mythic Raiding, 5 days/week. Anyone welcome to ask for details, whisper me if interested".

Result: I'm being spammed with people asking me about this. Not all raider material, but many are. 15-20 responses.

- my alt realm, same thing, but with 2-3 days/week. I get no response 90% of the times I try. I might get a raider that's already guilded but unhappy to talk to me once/month. Guild is 13/13M and with good reputation, since Burning Crusade, so this is not a factor.

Fix dead realms, and 20 man Mythic is not an issue at all. Well, maybe just for those that want to do 10 man and never adapt, which I kind of feel sorry for, but common people, recruit 10 more already, Legion will give you an opportunity for a fresh start.

Dead realms aren't the only factors in that matter, though. Many guilds simply don't want to raid with more than 10 people.
You could argue now that if guilds aren't willing to recruit more people, they shouldn't be entitled to go mythic. I'd agree on that point if Blizz didn't gave us almost 4 years of 10 man mythic (or heroic for that matter) raiding.

[Deleted]

I sincerely miss being in a 10 man raid team. Finding 20 people of a similar skill level, with similar goals, and who get along is significantly harder than finding 10. It's even worse if you aren't on a high pop server. I main dps, but I also like healing. 20+ man healing however has always felt really boring to me. I feel like my performance matters much less.

Same.

Larger raid sizes are dogshit, always have been.

- - - Updated - - -

Dead realms aren't the only factors in that matter, though. Many guilds simply don't want to raid with more than 10 people.
You could argue now that if guilds aren't willing to recruit more people, they shouldn't be entitled to go mythic. I'd agree on that point if Blizz didn't gave us almost 4 years of 10 man mythic (or heroic for that matter) raiding.

Heroism is a small band of people pulling off the impossible.

It is not gang banging your way through a clusterfuck of particle effects in a huge crowd.

[PassingBy]

Same.

Larger raid sizes are dogshit, always have been.

And finding 2, 3 of 5 people of the same skill is even easier.
Let's make raiding like arena.