Venezuela's Crash: There's No Toilet Paper In Caracas

[Forogil]

So the people in north korea should blame their plight on democracy?

The people in "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea living in a self-reliant socialist state with elections" should blame their necrocracy, their dear leader and his cronies for their plight. They should not blame democracy, the republican party or the people.

The difference with Venezuela is that Venezuela not only described itself as socialist, but was described as socialist by socialists in other countries; when it was still rich from the oil - I guess you missed the pamphlets roughly stating that "Another world is possible: Venezuela". Democratic countries didn't praise N. Korea for their democracy before the latest famine.

Additionally the policies in Venezuela are consistent with the socialist idea as previously explained; seizing control of the means of production is one of the main parts of socialism - it is just that it invariable fails in practice (taking from the rich is easy - and giving some to the poor; it's just that everyone always take a bit for themselves as well); and also that it removes the incentives for efficient work - which caused the collapse of Venezuela when the oil stopped flowing. So, the problem in Venezuela stems both from the inevitable failures of implementing socialist ideas in practice - and additionally from the inherent failures of the socialist ideas (removing incentives to improve).

Sending families to work-camps for speaking their mind in N. Korea is inconsistent with democracy.

Those are simple facts.

[Deleted]

The people in "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea living in a self-reliant socialist state with elections" should blame their necrocracy, their dear leader and his cronies for their plight. They should not blame democracy, the republican party or the people.

The difference with Venezuela is that Venezuela not only described itself as socialist, but was described as socialist by socialists in other countries; when it was still rich from the oil - I guess you missed the pamphlets roughly stating that "Another world is possible: Venezuela". Democratic countries didn't praise N. Korea for their democracy before the latest famine.

Additionally the policies in Venezuela are consistent with the socialist idea as previously explained; seizing control of the means of production is one of the main parts of socialism - it is just that it invariable fails in practice (taking from the rich is easy - and giving some to the poor; it's just that everyone always take a bit for themselves as well); and also that it removes the incentives for efficient work - which caused the collapse of Venezuela when the oil stopped flowing. So, the problem in Venezuela stems both from the inevitable failures of implementing socialist ideas in practice - and additionally from the inherent failures of the socialist ideas (removing incentives to improve).

Sending families to work-camps for speaking their mind in N. Korea is inconsistent with democracy.

Those are simple facts.

That's communism. Nice facts tho.

[PosPosPos]

Sending families to work-camps for speaking their mind in N. Korea is inconsistent with democracy.

Those are simple facts.

Rigged elections, superPACs, crony capitalism leaking into politics and gerrymandering in the US are also inconsistent with democracy.

Those are simple facts.

And the list goes on....

[Machismo]

Hoarding of wealth, while everyone else gets poorer is stealing. Do you even know how money is made today?

And like I said, it's not about removing a million from someone's account and redistributing it. It is about making sure as many people work as possible, and are paid fair enough. A socialist country wants to establish the infrastructure where people can work.

Saving money is not stealing, neither is letting your money make money for you. Demanding that one group give money to others... now that's theft.

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But primarily, they are a democracy because they claim to be.

According to your standards set by your narrative anyway.

Not even close. I haevn't set any standard, feel free to use the dictionary definitions.

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And they also share, I'm betting, the fact that they do not consider themselves socialist countries at all. The Scandinavian ones sure as hell don't, at any rate. Unless one would call countries that embrace social democracy socialist, but that would be a bit strange, considering that those countries often hold a special sort of contempt for countries that actually do call themselves socialist. Sliding scale or not, the two are vastly different concepts, and they really shouldn't be lumped into one category.

The only real difference is how free the populace is, and to what level they ascribe to democracy to a totalitarian form of governance.

[Forogil]

Except it doesn't and everything you wrote here is wrong. Most of it is the same old american fear mongering people copy/paste without doing any research or know what they are talking about.

First of all how much does socialism take? you said too much but exactly how much?

By seizing control of the means of production and removing the incentive to innovate socialism takes away too much; and that's one of the reasons Venezuela has collapsed - the other part being the inherent cronyism.
Social democrats instead want to intervene and re-distribute in a primarily capitalist economy are more complicated - and it will depend on the specific policies (how high is the tax?), the society, and your preferences if it is too much or not.

So, socialism takes too much - a simple fact. It's open to debate if social democrats take too much.

Socialism values workers

Socialism values workers in the same way as the Animal Farm values the hard-working horse.

Rigged elections, crony capitalism leaking into politics and gerrymandering in the US are also inconsistent with democracy.

Yes, and they cause problems (possibly except the rigged elections; just because there are accusations of rigged elections doesn't make that so) - so work on fixing them - especially the Voting Rights Act.

But there is a difference between gerrymandering making a vote less meaningful and sending someone to work-camp for speaking their mind. The absence of perfection doesn't make everyone equally bad.

That's communism. Nice facts tho.

Wrong again.

Just to clarify:
Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving collective bargaining arrangements, a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions.
Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.
Communism is an ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state. (Spoiler: It never reaches that.)

[PosPosPos]

Not even close. I haevn't set any standard, feel free to use the dictionary definitions.

So you mean Venezuela isn't socialist?

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But there is a difference between gerrymandering making a vote less meaningful and sending someone to work-camp for speaking their mind. The absence of perfection doesn't make everyone equally bad.

Not just gerrymandering, but feel free to only cherry pick only one example to fit your narrative. Also, I didn't mention anything about "absence of perfection makes everyone equally bad", but keep up with the strawman.

I mean, if your idea is to say that the US is perfectly well off being extremely flawed because of much less developed and more chaotic nations like Venezuela, you must really be grasping at straws.

[Machismo]

So you mean Venezuela isn't socialist?

Umm, yes it is. Go look up the definition of the word.

[Espe]

so work on fixing them - especially the Voting Rights Act.

What happens when the voting rights act is dismantled by conservatives who stole elections through mass voter disenfranchisement and gerrymandering?

[Tijuana]

long story short, he holds the same primary views now as he did when he graduated college.

Most people, in their youth, tend to be more liberal. Then they get a job, pay taxes, watch the shit show that is the gov't mismanage funds through corruption and ineptitude, and change their tune. Maybe not a 180 mind you, but some.

Bernie never had a "full time" job. He worked some bullshit on and off jobs, and eventually got elected in one of the most liberal cities in the nation by doing what hard core socialists typically do, making promises that he can't keep (although to be honest that's pretty much every politician). Hard core socialists like Bernie are not much different from people like Bernie Madoff. They promote a Ponzi scheme that in reality can never stand on its own over a long term.

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I didn't write the co-op, so don't aim your arrows at me.

Caracus is the epitome of a failed socialist state.

I like the following expression for what you are saying: "If you are a conservative at 20, you don't have a heart. If you are a liberal at 40, you don't have a brain."

It's attributed to Churchill but, so are a lot of the good ones that he didn't really say.

[Forogil]

There was no illegal power grab. The people willingly elected 'socialists' because they were pissed with previous governments.

One could claim that the main reason the socialist Chavez didn't grab power illegally is his lack of competence when he tried in 1992; but according to Venezuelans I have spoken to he was still vastly more competent than his successor. (That's not praise of Chavez.)

However, it is also true that kleptocratic countries usually replace one government by another; often arguing that they will end corruption - but invariable being more concerned about stealing everything than building something; and then replaced by another government trying to steal in another way.

[PosPosPos]

Umm, yes it is. Go look up the definition of the word.

So you admit you are under the erroneous impression that communism is socialism?

[Tijuana]

What happens when the voting rights act is dismantled by conservatives who stole elections through mass voter disenfranchisement and gerrymandering?

It was already struck down by the Supreme court last year since it was inherently unfair. It had no means to test progress, and was to be applied for eternity in the same areas, due to lacking any means to change which precincts it covered. For example, New York was on the list. Does anyone really think New York is a bastion of racism?

[Machismo]

So you admit you are under the erroneous impression that communism is socialism?

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.

You really need to look up some dictionary definitions.

Name me a single communist nation.

[Forogil]

What happens when the voting rights act is dismantled by conservatives who stole elections through mass voter disenfranchisement and gerrymandering?

Every party in power uses gerrymandering in the US. What will happen is up to the people.

[Tijuana]

Every party in power uses gerrymandering in the US. What will happen is up to the people.

One person's gerrymandering is another persons fair electorate map. Do people who cry about gerrymandering want it all split in to equal squares? Because, that isn't fair either.

[Forogil]

So you mean Venezuela isn't socialist?

He assumedly looked up the definition in e.g. Wikipedia, and thus correctly state that Venezuela is a self-described socialist state - with a socialist leader and socialist economic system.

Not just gerrymandering, but feel free to only cherry pick only one example to fit your narrative. Also, I didn't mention anything about "absence of perfection makes everyone equally bad", but keep up with the strawman.

No, but when I showed that N. Korea is nowhere near democracy - despite its official name, you highlighted gerrymandering and other policies to show that the US isn't fully democratic. That is essentially using the argument that "absence of perfection makes everyone equally bad"; and that is your fatally flawed argument - not a strawman argument.

If you are in the US go out and speak your minds against gerrymandering and other actual problems with the voting (don't invent conspiracies such as "election polls show that voting is rigged"); you are free to do so - and strive to improve the democracy. If you are in N. Korea: ...

[PosPosPos]

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.

You really need to look up some dictionary definitions.

Name me a single communist nation.

So North Korea is democratic because they named themselves as such?

[Machismo]

So North Korea is democratic because they named themselves as such?

Jesus Christ, go look up the definition of the fucking words. No, that does not make them democratic. It's no different when someone says Venezuela is communist, which they are not.

Can you name me a single communist country?

[PosPosPos]

No, but when I showed that N. Korea is nowhere near democracy - despite its official name, you highlighted gerrymandering and other policies to show that the US isn't fully democratic. That is essentially using the argument that "absence of perfection makes everyone equally bad"; and that is your fatally flawed argument - not a strawman argument.

It's not democratic. It's not just "imperfect". Just because it's slightly better than being sent off to work camps, doesn't change the severity of the issue. Unless, of course, your argument is that because eating shit is better than diarrhea, you are very well off eating shit. Or that you are making up strawmen like inputting non-existent intentions into my words.

If you are in the US go out and speak your minds against gerrymandering and other actual problems with the voting (don't invent conspiracies such as "election polls show that voting is rigged"); you are free to do so - and strive to improve the democracy. If you are in N. Korea: ...

In both cases, you are ignored. So the only difference is, one puts you in work camps, the other imposes "humane" slavery on you.

Jesus Christ, go look up the definition of the fucking words. No, that does not make them democratic. It's no different when someone says Venezuela is communist, which they are not.

Can you name me a single communist country?

Oh, okay, so you are splitting hairs now.

[Forogil]

One person's gerrymandering is another persons fair electorate map. Do people who cry about gerrymandering want it all split in to equal squares? Because, that isn't fair either.

There is no perfect election system (I believe Arrow proved that); and it might be that the only way to avoid it would be a proportional system - and the states doesn't want that - similarly as they don't want to replace "the winner takes it all" by popular vote in the presidential election. The point is that people can work to change it in the US.

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It's not democratic. It's not just "imperfect". Just because it's slightly better than being sent off to work camps, doesn't change the severity of the issue. Unless, of course, your argument is that because eating shit is better than diarrhea, you are very well off eating shit. Or that you are making up strawmen like inputting non-existent intentions into my words.

Do you really compare sending people to work-camps for speaking their minds with gerrymandering diminishing their vote?
Have you lost all sense of proportion, human values, and human decency?

To give some perspective:
Freedom house ranks the US as 90% democratic: https://www.freedomhouse.org/report/...dom-world-2016
N. Korea is ranked as 3% democratic. Germany is at 95%, Norway, Sweden, Finland at 100%.
Added: Canada at 99% (too polite to be 100%?), and Venezuela at 35%.