[BEAST MASTERY]Legion Alpha Discussion

[AdrianCC100]

I wish Blizzard listened to the Hunter community like they do with the Mage community. I just read on the front page Blizzard is changing something with Frost because the community thought it wasn't good.

[Sim]

Level 100: (Beast Mastery) Aspect of the Beast

Why is this talent so weak? I've been dummy testing and it is actually lowering my DPS by about 2-3% compared to not even having a Level 100 Talent. It does ~3% total dmg, but why? Chimera Shot @ LV30 Talent is doing ~18% total DMG. Now this is on the PTR and without Hati whom I can only imagine also does Bestial Ferocity which would bring it up to ~6% total DMG (I hope). Maybe I am getting the wrong idea about talents but I would hope that a Level 100 Talent should feel like one and not be made weaker for having taken it.

As far as rotation is concerned
Live
1) Kill Command
2) Arcane Shot (Focus Dump)
3) Barrage
4) Cobra Shot (Focus Gen)
5) Kill Shot

use BW when properly lined up with FF/Trinkets etc.

PTR
1) Dire Beast (Focus Gen)
2) Killl Command
3) Chimera Shot (Sort of Focus Gen)
4) Cobra Shot (Focus Dump)
5) Barrage / Murder of Crows

use BW on CD pref before using DB because it lowers CD on next BW.
Aspect of Wild for burst.

The biggest change is that your time is not filled up by spamming Cobra Shot. Your always having to do something if your not doing something else. Above all you are hitting Cobra Shot in between everything. So it does feel weird not having to constantly manage cool downs and abilities around your Cobra Shot usage. It also does feel weird not having those moments of pure burst dps when your hitting BW and spamming Arcane Shot like your life is doing to end if you dont use 50 arcane shots in time. With these changes BM feels like its all one pace and straight forward with how you are using your abilities with some down time in between. On PTR I have 19% Haste and I don't have infinite Focus like people would claim to have so I would like to know at what point does your Haste % need to be at to achieve this infinite Focus.

[ejpaints]

Every time Blizzard unnecessarily cuts good features from the game *cough* flying *cough* this is the excuse people give. Why do you feel the need to excuse them? If things like Camoflague were fun and weren't detrimental to the game why should BM be denied access to it (especially in favour of what is literally a shittier Binding Arrow; same duration, longer cooldown, only one target, requires pet in range)?

NOT DOING most of these changes and just keeping hunters similar to how they are on live would be both easier and a wiser decision. They wen't through a whole bunch of extra effort for a worse end product. We lose not just a giant amount of utility, but many very fun abilities that allowed for people who truly mastered the class to distinguish themselves from people who were just average at the class.

Blizzard should not be making half-assed changes and saying "it's not optimal, but it's fine" and you shouldn't be saying it for them. Any change needs a good reason and in Legion they are changing a whole lot for the sake of change, ESPECIALLY in class design, without considering whether they are actually improving the end product.

Don't take my opinion as excusing them. In the case of camo since that's the part you quoted, I can simply switch to MM I believe was the spec I recall still having it. Do I agree with their changes? No I don't. But, I know this late in the game it's not going to change so I've adapted my playstyle. I am still enjoying the spec I've always loved regardless of the fact that they've made some changes I don't like.

Overall this expansion is so far and beyond the crapstorm that was WoD it would be difficult for me to be disgruntled too much over class changes. Mostly because these changes are something I've easily adapted to. They've done plenty of things in the past that ticked me off, flying was definitely one of them. But they just haven't done anything to the class that has made me that annoyed.

So I don't have to decide when I should & shouldn't use focus fire now. I'm finding other things in the talent tree to fill that role. Seeing as balance changes aren't done I'm seeing how each talent feels compared to the others. There are ways to make our rotation a little more interesting. It's just too early to know which of those are going to be the optimal use. But as an example I'm currently finding that using Chim shot & AMoC for open world is more fun for me. Will that change in a raid setting? Probably, but since I can't test that yet I'm focusing more on what feels right because #'s can and will change.

[MrTharne]

Looking at all the Artifacts for DPS specs, I found something rather...disturbing. All of them have the "0/20" trait that increases all of their damage by 0.5% per point (Fire, Frost, Arcane Mage and Shadow Priest are only their respective elements but that's the only type of damage they do, I think) BUT THEN I saw something funny...

"Increases Hati's damage by XX%", I only look what was on WoWHead so I don't know if this is up to date or not but : Is this some kind of sick joke from the Devs ? What kind of morons gave us this shit ? And I'm not even gonna say what I think of Hati's 2min death CD.

[Thursley]

Looking at all the Artifacts for DPS specs, I found something rather...disturbing. All of them have the "0/20" trait that increases all of their damage by 0.5% per point (Fire, Frost, Arcane Mage and Shadow Priest are only their respective elements but that's the only type of damage they do, I think) BUT THEN I saw something funny...

"Increases Hati's damage by XX%", I only look what was on WoWHead so I don't know if this is up to date or not but : Is this some kind of sick joke from the Devs ? What kind of morons gave us this shit ? And I'm not even gonna say what I think of Hati's 2min death CD.

Don't fixate on 1 component of a spec's kit in a vacuum. It's only a problem if you think blizzard will do damage tuning before counting the artifact trait bonus, which would be silly. It doesn't really matter where the damage comes from, as long as the end result is balanced. If the spec's actual damage output is low that's a separate issue.

[MrTharne]

Don't fixate on 1 component of a spec's kit in a vacuum. It's only a problem if you think blizzard will do damage tuning before counting the artifact trait bonus, which would be silly. It doesn't really matter where the damage comes from, as long as the end result is balanced. If the spec's actual damage output is low that's a separate issue.

When you combine "Increases Hati's damage by XX%" with "Hati's 2min death CD", you have the example of bad design, no other spec lose half of their Artifact because a stupid and bugged AI dies.

[Keyimin]

While I agree that it seems outlandish on first glance (and Hati's 2-min death CD is ridiculous regardless), it's not as bad as it initially might seem. Those 0/20 levels are a final added bonus to keep AP relevant after you have a fully upgraded artifact. The amount of AP that you'll need to even get a few of those, let alone all of them, is monstrous, and if you're working on an off-spec artifact, chances are far more likely you'll be dumping AP into that first.

If you've been maining BM long enough to get to the point where you're at the ultimate min-maxing of your artifact, that end-game 10% dmg boost going to Hati won't matter.

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

Does anyone know of a transmog set that would look good with that bow? :P

[MrTharne]

So I tested it on PTR, with ChimShot it's good I think, it's not complicated (at all) but I enjoy it. Now without ChimShot, it's bad, I don't have really high haste (13%) but the focus starving is real, like already pointed. A shame since I really like Dire Frenzy.

ChimShot baseline Blizzard.

Edit : If they're not gonna make Chim baseline (and at this point, they're not gonna), they should at least lower Dire Frenzy's cd to improve focus regen.

[Firebyrd]

Reading the last couple of pages makes me weep and suggests exactly why Blizzard ignores us as a class. It reminds me of the people declaring that Hunter's Mark was our signature ability during the WoD beta and crying over it being gone. If you think BM is playing the same on PTR/Beta as it does on live, I have to think you're one of the people that sits around not hitting KC on cd if at all, not using Cobra Shot to regain focus, etc. I mean, even if it played exactly identically to live, it would be almost 50% slower just due to putting us back on the 1.5 sec GCD. That's a big difference. Then you add in that there is literally never an empty GCD on live as compared to new BM. As many have noted, it's bearable with Chimaera in the rotation, but there's still downtime. And with Dire Frenzy? There's a /lot/ of downtime.

I just can't comprehend how anyone could think going from 1 sec GCD capped to 1.5 sec GCD with lots of empty GCDs feels the same, even apart from ability changes and losses.

[Bepples]

Reading the last couple of pages makes me weep and suggests exactly why Blizzard ignores us as a class. It reminds me of the people declaring that Hunter's Mark was our signature ability during the WoD beta and crying over it being gone. If you think BM is playing the same on PTR/Beta as it does on live, I have to think you're one of the people that sits around not hitting KC on cd if at all, not using Cobra Shot to regain focus, etc. I mean, even if it played exactly identically to live, it would be almost 50% slower just due to putting us back on the 1.5 sec GCD. That's a big difference. Then you add in that there is literally never an empty GCD on live as compared to new BM. As many have noted, it's bearable with Chimaera in the rotation, but there's still downtime. And with Dire Frenzy? There's a /lot/ of downtime.

I just can't comprehend how anyone could think going from 1 sec GCD capped to 1.5 sec GCD with lots of empty GCDs feels the same, even apart from ability changes and losses.

Because people like to make false equivalencies and claim things are the same, discarding the numerous things wrong with their argument. Hell, Blizzard does this. Blizzard thinks Marksman Mobility is not nerfed, for example, because they think Sniper Training is exactly the same as Aimed Shot being standstill (and I've seen people here argue that too). For a BM-specific example: Blizzard thinks empty GCD periods where you wait for focus return is exactly the same as casting Steady Shot to get some focus back.

People generally know, sometimes subconsciously, that a change is negative so they choose to deny the existence of the change entirely. Hell, denial is pretty much the driving force behind class design since late 2013. "Elemental shamans aren't underpowered, you're overpowered and you don't even know it!" comes to mind.

[Firebyrd]

Because people like to make false equivalencies and claim things are the same, discarding the numerous things wrong with their argument. Hell, Blizzard does this. Blizzard thinks Marksman Mobility is not nerfed, for example, because they think Sniper Training is exactly the same as Aimed Shot being standstill (and I've seen people here argue that too). For a BM-specific example: Blizzard thinks empty GCD periods where you wait for focus return is exactly the same as casting Steady Shot to get some focus back.

People generally know, sometimes subconsciously, that a change is negative so they choose to deny the existence of the change entirely. Hell, denial is pretty much the driving force behind class design since late 2013. "Elemental shamans aren't underpowered, you're overpowered and you don't even know it!" comes to mind.

I expect the idiocy from Blizzard at this point since it's long been obvious that none of the class designers play hunter at a high skill level (if they play it at all, which fucking Celestalon obviously does not. I'm never going to get over him having to go ask on Twitch what the MM priority was during WoD's beta after he'd been so adamant that it was fine.). It's the players arguing that this stuff is good that astounds me. Stockholm syndrome much?

And thank you for bringing up the bullshit that sitting doing nothing is the same as hitting Steady/Cobra to get focus back. Maybe the end result is the same (which it isn't when you look at the gameplay as a whole), but it isn't the same because it's the difference between doing nothing and doing something. Tell the enh shamans that are whining about being GCD capped now that Maelstrom is basically focus (and how come that's okay for them, but not for BM?) that it's the same thing. You'll get an earful.

I wish enh wasn't melee, I'd swap to it in a second to get my preferred gameplay back if it was ranged.

[Benggaul]

I expect the idiocy from Blizzard at this point since it's long been obvious that none of the class designers play hunter at a high skill level (if they play it at all, which fucking Celestalon obviously does not. I'm never going to get over him having to go ask on Twitch what the MM priority was during WoD's beta after he'd been so adamant that it was fine.). It's the players arguing that this stuff is good that astounds me. Stockholm syndrome much?

And thank you for bringing up the bullshit that sitting doing nothing is the same as hitting Steady/Cobra to get focus back. Maybe the end result is the same (which it isn't when you look at the gameplay as a whole), but it isn't the same because it's the difference between doing nothing and doing something. Tell the enh shamans that are whining about being GCD capped now that Maelstrom is basically focus (and how come that's okay for them, but not for BM?) that it's the same thing. You'll get an earful.

I wish enh wasn't melee, I'd swap to it in a second to get my preferred gameplay back if it was ranged.

I'm curious, who is saying that these changes are good? Pretty much every one of us in the beta who have been playing through these changes have voiced our opinions in the Beta BM Hunter thread and they are overwhelmingly negative. Of course, some are slightly less negative than others, but the net consensus is that it's just plain awful what they've done to the spec in the name of "class fantasy". The fact that nothing major has changed since we came out of Alpha only solidifies our distaste. We know they read the thread, but we still feel completely ignored.

Is it just people in this particular thread saying that it's all good? The only people I haven't heard complaining about it are people who aren't in the beta or don't play a BM Hunter.

[Keyimin]

The fact that nothing major has changed since we came out on Alpha only solidifies our distaste.

There, fixed that for you

Is it just people in this particular thread saying that it's all good? The only people I haven't heard complaining about it are people who aren't in the beta or don't play a BM Hunter.

Yes, there's been a steady trickle of people popping into this thread to say it's not as bad as people are making it seem or flat-out saying they like it. There's been maybe a handful of "it's not so bad" in the feedback thread.

[Hallebarry]

If you're finding yourself without enough focus to cast KC or Barrage at pop, then you're pushing out too many Cobra Shots.


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[Keyimin]

If you're finding yourself without enough focus to cast KC or Barrage at pop, then you're pushing out too many Cobra Shots.


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Thank you for that insightful advice. I'm sure none of us were capable of figuring that out on our own. Or, just possibly, that's the reason for the complaints about downtime.

[Hallebarry]

Thank you for that insightful advice. I'm sure none of us were capable of figuring that out on our own. Or, just possibly, that's the reason for the complaints about downtime.

Not sure if that's sarcasm.




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[Keyimin]

...............

Yes.

[Hallebarry]

...............

Yes.

A large chunk of the players in this thread are concerned with focus and being starved of it. They're opting into solutions that will give them more focus but leave them with less dps.

I was just posting to assure them that it's okay to autoattack, that you don't have to CS to look better.

Obviously most experienced hunters are capable of figuring that out, especially since some might do that now with Chim shot, but i'm sure there's less skilled or new hunters coming in here looking for answers.


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[Keyimin]

A large chunk of the players in this thread are concerned with focus and being starved of it.

Yeah, because you're either focus starved or sitting around with your thumb up your bum. Those are your options. Not very difficult to comprehend.

They're opting into solutions that will give them more focus but leave them with less dps.

Oh hello, strawman. And why, pray tell, have you been conjured from the depths of fallacy this fine evening?

I was just posting to assure them that it's okay to autoattack, that you don't have to CS to look better.

Obviously most experienced hunters are capable of figuring that out, especially since some might do that now with Chim shot, but i'm sure there's less skilled or new hunters coming in here looking for answers.

Oh I see. A strawman lead-in to condescending insults directed at no real person in this thread.

Right on. You do you, boo boo.