BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Kalis]

You might want to look up the Single European Act that one that declared that the EU would become more political and more than a trade block. Thatcher signed that. As i said a flip flop like most britisch politicians.

The EU bureaucracy does not need to change for the UK, if anything you need to clean house in your own political system. I bet you aren't even aware of all the veto rights and how the EU actually functions politically, otherwise you wouldn't be making that statement but guessing how polarized and poorly the information you can obtain has become on your front the last months i'm not the least surprised by such statements. Do you even know a single thing that have to be changed, an actual thing not something vague like "EU bureaucracy" in general

We literally got the EU to commit to reducing bureaucracy a few months ago, so what are you on about?

The European Council urges all EU institutions and Member States to strive for better regulation and to repeal unnecessary legislation in order to enhance EU competitiveness while having due regard to the need to maintain high standards of consumer, employee, health and environmental protection. This is a key driver to deliver economic growth, foster competitiveness and job creation.

To contribute to this objective, the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission have agreed the Interinstitutional Agreement on Better Law-Making. Effective cooperation in this framework is necessary in order to simplify Union legislation and to avoid over-regulation and administrative burdens for citizens, administrations and businesses, including small and medium-sized enterprises, while ensuring that the objectives of the legislation are met.

The focus must be on:

— a strong commitment to regulatory simplification and burden reduction, including through withdrawal or repeal of legislation where appropriate, and a better use of impact assessment and ex post evaluation throughout the legislative cycle, at the EU and national levels. This work should build on the progress already made with the regulatory fitness programme (REFIT),

— doing more to reduce the overall burden of EU regulation, especially on SMEs and micro-enterprises,

— establishing where feasible burden reduction targets in key sectors, with commitments by EU institutions and Member States.

I do not have to bet you are not aware of that, as you blatantly were unaware of that.

[Acidbaron]

We literally got the EU to commit to reducing bureaucracy a few months ago, so what are you on about?



I do not have to bet you are not aware of that, as you blatantly were unaware of that.

Which was the wrong way to go about it all, since if one member has such an issue with moving forward they are best of on their own, i spoke of this standstill earlier. The only luck the British politicians have is that some European members still believe that it's best to stay as large as a collective as possible rather than to grow more unified with less before expanding again.

You however ignored my question, what do you actually want to have changed? Since if you claim there is a commitment already there you are basically admitting this whole referendum is nothing more than a joke.

Hell the whole reason why the refugee issue became a crisis is due to an absolute lack of european wide immigration crisis something the UK but not the UK exclusive contributed to, because you know "mah sovereignty!" argument.

[Noradin]

i want you to leave because if you vote to stay the 40-45% of you that are delusional will continue to be ignorant and crazy and do their best to screw the EU over again and again - as for a good brexit argument? - Cant say i have heard one, its mostly idiocy and lies.

Well, to be honest, I have heard several. All of them are reasons to kick them out, though, not reasons why it would be beneficial for them to leave.

[Kalis]

Which was the wrong way to go about it all, since if one member has such an issue with moving forward they are best of on their own, i spoke of this standstill earlier. The only luck the British politicians have is that some European members still believe that it's best to stay as large as a collective as possible rather than to grow more unified with less before expanding again.

I like how you just claimed others were uninformed, got destroyed by an extract from the very agreement reached before the Brexit campaigns started and then ignored that part.

You however ignored my question, what do you actually want to have changed? Since if you claim there is a commitment already there you are basically admitting this whole referendum is nothing more than a joke.

In my industry the recent Solvency Directive, is one such problem.

And it does not mean the EU referendum is a joke, we have the right to self determination in the UK, we take that very seriously, e.g. Gibraltar islanders, Falkland Islanders, Scottish Independence.

Who are you, from an irrelevant EU nation that is nothing more than a location for some EU buildings, to tell us that deciding on our future is a joke?

Hell the whole reason why the refugee issue became a crisis is due to an absolute lack of european wide immigration crisis something the UK but not the UK exclusive contributed to, because you know "mah sovereignty!" argument.

Why should we bail out other European nations fucking up on refugees? We implemented a sensible policy to only take refugees from refugee camps, perhaps if countries like Germany had followed our lead, then they would not be having this issue and we could deal with the situation in Greece effectively, rather than buggering everywhere up.

[Acidbaron]

I like how you just claimed others were uninformed, got destroyed by an extract from the very agreement reached before the Brexit campaigns started and then ignored that part.



In my industry the recent Solvency Directive, is one such problem.

And it does not mean the EU referendum is a joke, we have the right to self determination in the UK, we take that very seriously, e.g. Gibraltar islanders, Falkland Islanders, Scottish Independence.

Who are you, from an irrelevant EU nation that is nothing more than a location for some EU buildings, to tell us that deciding on our future is a joke?



Why should we bail out other European nations fucking up on refugees? We implemented a sensible policy to only take refugees from refugee camps, perhaps if countries like Germany had followed our lead, then they would not be having this issue and we could deal with the situation in Greece effectively, rather than buggering everywhere up.

I pointed out you being wrong on Thatcher i pointed out earlier that i am not in agreement with the whole concept of catering to the brats in london. I further more mentioned that this is a problem, the whole reason there is a referendum is that the brats still aren't happy which is the right time to tell them to go fuck off, these poor display of theatrics has gone long enough, i do really hope you leave as i said before it would mean your political class actually for once in decades taking blame rather than merely pointing the finger and blaming the EU.

Now you can attack me and my nation all you want if that makes you feel any bigger and better, i simply find it rather amusing you have to resort to that in this discussion what i guess is rather telling, guess i hit a soft spot

And there we go again blind nationalism, yes i agree why should we care about those refugees wanting to go to the UK building camps on the shores of the north sea, we should simply all give them easy passage and let you lot handle them, would actually give you lot an actual reason to cry about something. The whole reason that this situation is a mess is due to this thinking that is limited by borders, it's an EU wide problem and trying to solve it purely on a national level borders on stupidity. Sensible policy my ass, yes you intended to take refugees from camps only while the issue was already spread over the entire continent where camps had long become merely points they passed through. Thank you for merely proving my point i guess of how poorly that plan was, but that doesn't surprises me a lot of nations tried to move the problem around rather than trying to solve it.

Do find it funny that the nation protected by a geographical barrier is the nation that cries the most about it considering how your surrounding nations have and continued to stop illegal immigration.

Anyway have to get up in a few hours, so guess i'll join you in that dreamworld of yours

[Mhyroth]

Whatever the outcome will be on thursday, the UK will be more divided than ever before. I hope that whatever choice you make, is one that you make with full understanding of the reason you vote that way and take responsibility for whatever the consequences will be.

[Kalis]

I pointed out you being wrong on Thatcher i pointed out earlier that i am not in agreement with the whole concept of catering to the brats in london. I further more mentioned that this is a problem, the whole reason there is a referendum is that the brats still aren't happy which is the right time to tell them to go fuck off, these poor display of theatrics has gone long enough, i do really hope you leave as i said before it would mean your political class actually for once in decades taking blame rather than merely pointing the finger and blaming the EU.

How was I wrong on Thatcher? I said "Thatcher was pro-free markets, so the EU (or EC, as it was called then, maybe EEC, whatever) as a free trade bloc was what she liked. The regulation that infringed upon free trade was not what she liked", which is true.

Now you can attack me and my nation all you want if that makes you feel any bigger and better, i simply find it rather amusing you have to resort to that in this discussion what i guess is rather telling, guess i hit a soft spot

You said that us deciding on our future was a joke, which is an attack on British ideals, yet when it is thrown back at you then you start claiming to be the victim.

And there we go again blind nationalism, yes i agree why should we care about those refugees wanting to go to the UK building camps on the shores of the north sea, we should simply all give them easy passage and let you lot handle them, would actually give you lot an actual reason to cry about something. The whole reason that this situation is a mess is due to this thinking that is limited by borders, it's an EU wide problem and trying to solve it purely on a national level borders on stupidity. Sensible policy my ass, yes you intended to take refugees from camps only while the issue was already spread over the entire continent where camps had long become merely points they passed through. Thank you for merely proving my point i guess of how poorly that plan was, but that doesn't surprises me a lot of nations tried to move the problem around rather than trying to solve it.

Now it is blind nationalism to not want to fuck up your country

We took refugees from refugee camps bordering the conflict to ensure they were actual refugees and not leeches pretending to be refugees, it was an eminently sensible idea considering we are supposed to be helping refugees.

Do find it funny that the nation protected by a geographical barrier is the nation that cries the most about it considering how your surrounding nations have and continued to stop illegal immigration.

That natural barrier is why we did not fall to Napoleon, why we did not fall to the Nazis and why we could eventually liberate Europe alongside our allies, it plays an important role in our psyche.

[Kallisto]

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/stat...89625109450752

That anti-intellectualism.

Oh and if anyone has three hours to waste, two part Brexit "war games" roleplaying what discussions might look like in the event of a Brexit;

I was pretty much gob smacked when the PM was mocked for relying on the experts. I mean who do you want him to rely on. Mr and Mrs Gumby? Seriously experts are experts for a reason.

[Deleted]

Doesn't UK export more to EU than the other way around? Why would an exit be beneficial to them, economically speaking? We're talking about the largest single market out there...

[Kallisto]

Doesn't UK export more to EU than the other way around? Why would an exit be beneficial to them, economically speaking? We're talking about the largest single market out there...

Quite simple.

It won't.

[Deleted]

I was pretty much gob smacked when the PM was mocked for relying on the experts. I mean who do you want him to rely on. Mr and Mrs Gumby? Seriously experts are experts for a reason.

During Q&A today with the PM he answered people's question like a typical politician, go around in circles saying exactly the same things even when asked some tough questions. Who are the experts? Why have we not heard them? Where is the evidence?

He is hiding stuff like a typical conservative and thus my leave vote is confirmed

[Deleted]

Doesn't UK export more to EU than the other way around? Why would an exit be beneficial to them, economically speaking? We're talking about the largest single market out there...

It doesn't benefit them economically at all, especially considering the largest benefit to the UK over the last 43 years has been trade liberalization from within the Common Market.

With an 80% Services economy, and the largest common market in the world that has been negotiating or eliminating non-tariff barriers continually, the UK would be about to leave when the most important revolutions in Services are about to really take off, in particular backed by the growth of the Internet and other powerful technologies.

The UK can almost literally have their cake (EU single market) and eat it (rapid growth of non-EU trade).

Instead, some Machiavellian politician decides to use their cake as a political football for elections, party politics and even a future leadership tug-of-war.

Regardless of result, the UK will pay a price after Thursday, with divisions at every level ever growing in the country. If they do Brexit, the price will be orders of magnitude worse than the current GBP 0.39 they pay per day per person for being in the EU...

[Kallisto]

During Q&A today with the PM he answered people's question like a typical politician, go around in circles saying exactly the same things even when asked some tough questions. Who are the experts? Why have we not heard them? Where is the evidence?

He is hiding stuff like a typical conservative and thus my leave vote is confirmed

IMF
WHO
WB
Bank of England
Every University leader.
Top Scientists (cox, Hawking ETC)
90%+ of economic leaders.
NHS
Union of teachers
Nurses Unions

Essentially what did you want him to do. Come in with folder after folder. Why have you not heard of them? I don't know have you spent 5 minutes with your head out of sand? When it comes to economy trust the economist, medical issues you want doctors and nurses. For stupidity your general member of public in the pub or anything written by Murdoch media, mail, express, star.

[Kalis]

For stupidity your general member of public in the pub or anything written by Murdoch media...

Apropos of nothing much, the Times is pro-remain, the Sun is pro-leave.

[Nigel Tufnel]

The only luck the British politicians have is that some European members still believe that it's best to stay as large as a collective as possible rather than to grow more unified with less before expanding again.

Funnily enough, a lot of economists also agree with your point of view e.g.,

http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitu...EQSPaper57.pdf

TLDR: The reason the Eurozone lurches from crisis to crisis is because "significant fiscal union" has not accompanied monetary union.

For the Eurozone to succeed it must integrate further.

However, if you think that the Eurosceptic percentage of the electorate in the Eurozone countries - specifically: Spain, France, Greece, Austria etc. - is not going to veto completely the "significant fiscal union" that your unification requires, you are burying your head in the sand so deep it's reached Australia.

Euroscepticism is not the sole preserve of the UK electorate. You are in complete denial if you believe this level of integration would ever be supported universally by the Eurozone electorate.

Extrapolating further: basically, what you're saying is that a multi-speed EU (current status quo) is not "best". But, the fact remains that the Eurozone is fucked because the integration required to enable it to truly succeed will never be agreed by the member states. Unless it is imposed, undemocratically, by federalists like yourself.

So, tell me, again, why should I vote Remain?

[dribbles]

Doesn't UK export more to EU than the other way around? Why would an exit be beneficial to them, economically speaking? We're talking about the largest single market out there...

No the EU exports more to the UK than the other way round. How much we buy off them after Brexit depends on how sweetly the Eurotrash sing.

Just to show how sickly Europe is, in 1980 it represented 30% of the global economy, in 2016 it represents 15%. That's how insignificant and failing the EU "superstate" is.

3 days to save the UK, 3 days to escape, Vote Leave

[Heathy]

ill be voting remain, main issue is with work visas if we leave, that makes working in Europe a whole lot more costly for businesses. say you wanna go to holiday in spain and take up a part time bar job, well you won't be able to do that anymore, not without a visa.

doesn't matter how bad things are, being in a actual alliance is far better than fending for yourself. sorry to break it to ppl.

Wales, where I live gets quite a lot of money from being in the EU. think most ppl in Wales will vote remain most likely.

think Westminster will pick up that check, will they hell.

seems the only ppl who actually want to leave are old grumpy farts that'll be dead by the time the real shit kicks off. this won't effect them, this will effect our children.

its not like we'll get a second chance to rejoin. its completely illogical to jump ship, thats not what being a team player is about. 'oh there lots of refugees we better pack up boys'. ppl need to grow a back bone, this country has always had an immigration problem. i very much doubt it will change 1 iota.

[Deleted]

IMF
WHO
WB
Bank of England
Every University leader.
Top Scientists (cox, Hawking ETC)
90%+ of economic leaders.
NHS
Union of teachers
Nurses Unions

Essentially what did you want him to do. Come in with folder after folder. Why have you not heard of them? I don't know have you spent 5 minutes with your head out of sand? When it comes to economy trust the economist, medical issues you want doctors and nurses. For stupidity your general member of public in the pub or anything written by Murdoch media, mail, express, star.

These experts I have seen in the media, I take everything with a pinch of salt as we all know they can easily edit and twist the truth to how they want it, it's like "Isis are Muslims" and tomorrow "racial hate against Muslims on the rise" hmm wonder why?
If the evidence is real it should be there in a spot for anybody who wants to read the facts regardless of how complex it may be.
It's also easier to give "good reasons" to stay as we are already in the eu

[Deleted]

No the EU exports more to the UK than the other way round.

Don't think so.

[klogaroth]

Don't think so.

This is a graph showing that the UK imports more from the EU than it exports to the EU, which is what dribbles was saying.

It even says it in the text of the page you took it from "In EU trade the UK was a net importer this month, with imports exceeding exports by £7.1 billion." April 2016 being the month in question.