[Guardian] Legion Discussion

[Ooshraxa]

You have a priority list.

Mangle is the highest, Thrash second, maintaining Moonfire debuff on target, and while Mangle and Thrash are on cooldown fill the time with swipe.

You can also spice your "rotation" up with talenting into Pulverize.

For the sake of completeness:
Maul is horrid damage, and should only be used if you absolutely, positively are about to rage cap. It's that bad.

Just thought I'd throw it in there.

Personally, I'm really satisfied with the toolkit: We have a long-ranged pulling tool (Moonfire) and 360 degree AE damage (Swipe), both with no cooldown.
They are not high on the ability priority list, but it's VERY nice to have them both on demand.

[Kaeth]

For the sake of completeness:
Maul is horrid damage, and should only be used if you absolutely, positively are about to rage cap. It's that bad.

I hope this is eventually fixed in tuning. I'm tempted to take Maul off my bar in beta/PTR to avoid accidentally hitting it. If I'm about to rage cap, why wouldn't I just stack some more Iron Fur? With the stacking mechanic on our physical AM, there's not any interesting gameplay dynamic being presented by the current tuning of Maul: use it to prevent capping when the other tank has aggro; don't use it at all when you're actively tanking.

[PickleballAce]

Maul could definitely feel more visceral, but it's important that it doesn't hit *too* hard, otherwise Guardian's damage potential is locked behind an ability you won't be using too often unless you're not currently holding aggro. If it did OMGWTF damage then it would feel pretty shitty hitting Ironfur just to stay alive when you could've Mauled.

The damage that Maul isn't doing is pretty much just rolled into the other offensive abilities without a Rage opportunity cost.

[Ooshraxa]

Maul could definitely feel more visceral, but it's important that it doesn't hit *too* hard, otherwise Guardian's damage potential is locked behind an ability you won't be using too often unless you're not currently holding aggro. If it did OMGWTF damage then it would feel pretty shitty hitting Ironfur just to stay alive when you could've Mauled.

The damage that Maul isn't doing is pretty much just rolled into the other offensive abilities without a Rage opportunity cost.

I agree, and I don't have a problem with our damage output - I also like Swipe as a filler, and don't care that it does more damage than Maul.

I just thought that Maul should be completed in offensive ability rundown, that is all

[dreamdaddy]

I agree, and I don't have a problem with our damage output - I also like Swipe as a filler, and don't care that it does more damage than Maul.

I just thought that Maul should be completed in offensive ability rundown, that is all

I agree - I felt like Tooth and Claw was a great mechanic that provided a minor offensive rage dump ability with a bit of extra survivability and I'm not sure why it was removed. With Maul is as it is, it's not even worth it to have it on our actionbars. It would be nice to see it get some last minute attention but I wouldn't expect it to.

[Deleted]

Do you guys think there is any reason to pick another affinity over the resto one? seems like the best imo

[Nevcairiel]

Do you guys think there is any reason to pick another affinity over the resto one? seems like the best imo

For solo and leveling definitely resto, the quick healing is sometimes rather helpful.

For raiding .. maybe balance for the extra range on some add-pickup-heavy fights, or feral for movement fights. Its one of those things that can easily be customized instead of sticking to one, always.

[Ooshraxa]

Balance affinity is a neat convenience. Those extra five yards for picking up dungeon/raid trash? Golden.
Reminder: You can try the new Bear on the PTR. It's very very nice, and you get instant dungeon queues for testing.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

What's the rotation? It feels weird with low slow rage fills up, so I don't want to use Maul, but if I don't it feels super slow and clunky to me.

GG gives you interesting Rage Gen. As does Incarnation.

[Findme]

For the sake of completeness:
Maul is horrid damage, and should only be used if you absolutely, positively are about to rage cap. It's that bad.

Just thought I'd throw it in there.

Personally, I'm really satisfied with the toolkit: We have a long-ranged pulling tool (Moonfire) and 360 degree AE damage (Swipe), both with no cooldown.
They are not high on the ability priority list, but it's VERY nice to have them both on demand.

What toolkit are you talking about?

Mangle, Swipe and Thrash is not our toolkit. They are our basic rotational abilities. We have lost almost every utility/toolkit we had since the beginning in the span of several expansions.

• Tranquility
• Innervate
• Range Interrupt (Glyphed Faerie Fire)
• Mass Taunt
• Berserk
• Bear Hug
• Omen of Clarity for instant Heal or Battle Rez
• Tooth and Claw

all got cut.

Even HotW which was one talent in the talent tree is now split into a whole talent tier to fill the talent tree up. Guardian Druids utility/toolkit is basically not being a guardian druid.

[Promdates]

GG gives you interesting Rage Gen. As does Incarnation.

I've been running with: http://beta.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#C29v

And honestly in dungeons the rage generation is pretty much more than enough. It might not be the right talents, but I'm alway have Ironfur/Ursol up sometimes together. I'm assuming Incarnation is the true dps talent in the tier there, guess I should swap to that and try it out.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

I've been running with: http://beta.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#C29v

And honestly in dungeons the rage generation is pretty much more than enough. It might not be the right talents, but I'm alway have Ironfur/Ursol up sometimes together. I'm assuming Incarnation is the true dps talent in the tier there, guess I should swap to that and try it out.

Try brambles with GG. More AOE efficiency and also more surv without losing rage gen.

[zurm]

What toolkit are you talking about?

Mangle, Swipe and Thrash is not our toolkit. They are our basic rotational abilities. We have lost almost every utility/toolkit we had since the beginning in the span of several expansions.

• Tranquility
• Innervate
• Range Interrupt (Glyphed Faerie Fire)
• Mass Taunt
• Berserk
• Bear Hug
• Omen of Clarity for instant Heal or Battle Rez
• Tooth and Claw

all got cut.

Even HotW which was one talent in the talent tree is now split into a whole talent tier to fill the talent tree up. Guardian Druids utility/toolkit is basically not being a guardian druid.

Just for the sake of accuracy, in regards to omen of clarity, our battle rez is instant by default in bear form now, so we didn't really lose anything there. Losing the instant heal sucked, but that's not a bear specific nerf; all non-healers had their self healing gutted across the board. With legion changes, you're doing yourself a disservice by comparing class A in WoD to class A in legion; rather seeing how Class A and B differ is a better approach. The legion changes come from a completely different set of goals and EVERY class has seen utility gutted.

Additionally, as far as tanks go, we have the second longest range interrupt (13 yds on skull bash vs 20 for demon hunters, but we can go balance affinity and it's nearly the same at 18yds). We might be the only tank with an instant cast (but hot effect) POTENT heal not based on damage taken or health missing (in the form of lunar beam). DKs and DH's still beat us in the self healing department, but aren't even close to our raw HP or physical damage mitigation. We also traded in a terribly designed form of active mitigation for two vastly superior options.

Pretty sure the only tank with a mass taunt now is monks (which they have to talent into ox statue for), as warriors also lost theirs. Mass grip's cooldown was so heavily increased it's barely worth mentioning (and it only exists on DK and DH tanks now... and the DH one is terrible and has like no range).

The loss of berserk baseline sucks, but it's now baked into incarnation (yep, incarn's mangles now hit 3 targets, and it lasts 30 seconds instead of just 15).

I didn't play back then, but I looked up bear hug... how is this something worth missing? You were stuck "channeling" for 3s on the target. IMO bash is better.

As far as tanks go, we're in a fantastic place. You really need to stop looking to the past (plus, compared to live, legion druid is VASTLY more fun IMO), but instead compare us to other tanks in legion.

Try brambles with GG. More AOE efficiency and also more surv without losing rage gen.

As an addition to this, don't underestimate lunar beam (especially when paired with GG, as the individual hits can proc GG). The heal is significant, as is the extra damage (especially when combined with GG). It's great for those big trash pulls, and also great while soloing (as it's the only REAL heal you have while in bear form).

After leveling a few bears on the beta, this is going to be my leveling build. It has a good mix of damage, survivability, and sustain... with burst from incarnation to take out bigger enemies. Displacer beast allows you to survive big falls when you're just too lazy to run around the "correct" way (I found wild charge in travel form too unreliable, even though it should work like disengage). That said, I'm probably going to be leveling with a DPS warrior from my guild so killing stuff won't be much of a concern anyway.

[Ooshraxa]

What toolkit are you talking about?

I meant toolkit in the sense of a ranged pulling tool with no cooldown and an instant cast AE damage without cooldown.
A lot of other stuff was changed, yep. But the state of Legion bears right now is, as zurm put it, pretty damn awesome.

On the PTR, I find myself overflowing with rage when running GG/Brambles. Really love that combo.

[Bearshield]

Maul could definitely feel more visceral, but it's important that it doesn't hit *too* hard, otherwise Guardian's damage potential is locked behind an ability you won't be using too often unless you're not currently holding aggro. If it did OMGWTF damage then it would feel pretty shitty hitting Ironfur just to stay alive when you could've Mauled.

The damage that Maul isn't doing is pretty much just rolled into the other offensive abilities without a Rage opportunity cost.

Maul could be removed altogether at this point and I doubt anyone would miss it, sadly. I miss it being a core part of our rotation personally (I also miss the days when threat mattered and active mitigation did not exist) and I still stand by my opinion that Maul should have been modified to be both a heavy hitter and our active mitigation button (similar to Pally AM) but as it stands, it's borderline useless now. And imo, it DOES feel pretty crappy rotationally hitting buttons for mitigation rather than ones that do dmg but that is apparently how they intend to keep Bear AM.

All in all though, I am enjoying leveling my Bear on beta. Aside from our lack of utility, we probably have the most complete tank toolkit we've ever had and for me, it's the most fun playstyle we've had in long time. I still think Moonfire in bear form is cheesy, but I've actually grown to like using it.

- - - Updated - - -

• Tranquility
• Innervate
• Range Interrupt (Glyphed Faerie Fire)
• Mass Taunt
• Berserk
• Bear Hug
• Omen of Clarity for instant Heal or Battle Rez
• Tooth and Claw

all got cut.

Even HotW which was one talent in the talent tree is now split into a whole talent tier to fill the talent tree up. Guardian Druids utility/toolkit is basically not being a guardian druid.

Ok I'll bite, as a Bear since vanilla I can understand the frustration over the loss of our utility. As far as our actual tanking toolkit goes though, we are sitting in a good place.

Bear Hug? You actually used this? OoC Brez is a nonissue because we can finally do it in bear form, no OoC or shift macros required. And HotW was a sad attempt to replace the hybridity they had been gradually taking away from Druids since the Feral split in MoP. As to the ranged interrupt, I'll agree that's something we should have always had, but I rarely used that glyph when it was an option and managed just fine so I don't imagine I'll really miss it going forward. T & C was added to give you a reason to push a button that the active mitigation system basically penalized you for pushing otherwise. See my comments on Maul in my other post. Berserk being made a talent I agree, is bs.

On the other hand looking at how we've evolved over the years, we now have:

Physical Dmg Mitigation - Ironfur (yes, I preferred having a crapton of armor by default, but this is as close as we're going to get in today's game)
Magic Dmg Mitigation - Mark of Ursol (magic dmg has historically always been our weakness, now we can actually mitigate it)
Self Healing - Frenzied Regen
CD's - Barkskin, Survival Instincts, Rage of the Sleeper
Ranged Pull - Moonfire
AoE - Thrash, Swipe

And frankly, as someone who still misses bearcat, I am enjoying the new Affinities, because they're about as close to us being hybrid again as we're going to get. So really, we have our issues just like everyone else, lack of utility, our dps kind of sucks, but our toolkit for tanking is in a good place.

[Seani]

Is crit still going to give rage? I havent seen a use for the crit stat besides as extra damage.

[Dreyen]

Nope, crit will only increase your dodge chance. The only stat that improves rage generation will be haste.

[Seani]

Nope, crit will only increase your dodge chance. The only stat that improves rage generation will be haste.

Do you have a source for this my friend?

[dcc626]

Do we know much about adaptive fur? Proc chance etc? I'm trying to plan my artifact progression but i just don't know much about the trait.

[Nevcairiel]

Do we know much about adaptive fur? Proc chance etc? I'm trying to plan my artifact progression but i just don't know much about the trait.

Even with a high proc chance its IMHO the worst of the major traits. Gory -> Nightmare -> Adaptive, IMHO.