No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[wing5wong]

Why? That is the question we have all been asking and you and everyone else as failed to answer. Flight worked great BC-MoP. There is no reason to rework the game to work without flight. And that isn't the issue at all. The issue is that Blizzard wants to remove flight for whatever reason and are reworking the game to try and appease everyone pissed off that flight is being removed.

Its been answered many times.
It doesnt contribute to legion gameplay outside of convenience. Whether or not you accept that is a different story.

All the work being put into reworking the game over this only solves the convenience issue. And while they do that they remove elements that are actually engaging and fun. Teleports, hearths and flightpaths are not engaging gameplay and remove the player from the game. Having the commander of an army not able to fly while everyone around him can, removes the player from the gameplay.

The reworks are not based around flight or no flight. They are about engaging you with content, feeling like there is a reason to go do professions, to do world quests, to do dungeons.

Flight was introduced almost 10 years ago. Is a feature people loved and have invested a lot of time into. Nothing is being done to address this fact.

How much time did you invest in flying, really?

Your killing me, hear

I rest my case.

Whoooooosh!

[SirCowdog]

The fix in legion is to address gameplay mechanics (questing, professions, artifact gameplay etc) such that flight is unnecessary.
That is not to say flight should or shouldnt be introduced with better mechanics that contribute in an interesting way to gameplay outside of allowing you to get places faster and more directly.

That's kind of the thing with this whole argument. They're "fixing" gameplay by taking away gameplay that a lot of people like and want. Actually, it's worse than that. They're using the gameplay that a lot of people like and want as a carrot to extend the life of gameplay that they don't want.

[wing5wong]

Sigh.......It's selfish to want something that's been in the game for the past decade?

I get what you're saying about not being able to reach rares before someone with flight swoops in and kills it. But that's an issue of balancing the way in which rares spawn, and how long they last once they're attacked. It's also an issue of designing mazelike ground terrain that is purposefully meant to force ground movement to take unnecessarily extra time to navigate. On top of that is how bad ground mounts are at handling terrain steeper than a 1% grade. They should be able to climb or leap terrain that someone on foot wouldn't be able to handle.

This is the kind of thing I mean when people try to blame flight for issues that it's not solely responsible for. People are so focused on flight that they don't see all the other problems creating a situation. And don't get me wrong, I'm in full agreement that the current speed and mechanics of flight are too strong. But that isn't the ONLY problem here.

Its not selfish at all.

But players grew accustomed to the incredible speed advantages that flight gave though, and that is a major issue right now.

a full rework of the mount system in general would be cool. More options, more advantages to particular type (water strider, flyer )

- - - Updated - - -

That's kind of the thing with this whole argument. They're "fixing" gameplay by taking away gameplay that a lot of people like and want. Actually, it's worse than that. They're using the gameplay that a lot of people like and want as a carrot to extend the life of gameplay that they don't want.

Whilst they certainly have some crossover, those are 2 distinct development goals.
.Address core gameplay (quests,professions etc)
.Remove/restrict flight

The argument that they remove flight to extend content is weak IMO, i really dont think it has any grounds to base their decision on.
Any developer creating a game with the primary focus of thinking how long they can run a piece of content by slowing you down as much as possible is doomed to fail. Blizzard has made some stupid decisions before, but they are not that stupid.

I still think there are better options than the current pathfinder, but i also think pathfinder is better than paying 1k and now you fly.

[Eapoe]

Oh really?



Oh look you just did it again.

I am not reading the rest of your post until you can accept that your opinion is not the only one.

- - - Updated - - -



Your sentence was awful. Your grammar needs a lot of work.

- - - Updated - - -



AH did not add to the direct gameplay, and went against the nature of dungeon crawlers, hence it was removed. It was not a stop gate, it was a feature added that the devs though people wanted. It didn't work out that way.

Flight in its very nature is gameplay and adds a ton of new ways to experience the game. It was added as a feature and loved by the majority of players (if it weren't we wouldn't be here). At the very essence of WoW lore and fantasy, there is flight. In no way shape or form does it go against what the game is.

Now pathfinder, that is a stop-gap.

Well, maybe you should read the full post then. Also, find a dictionary and look up the difference between opinion and fact. Example of fact: flight is an in game tool that allows you to mount a flying mount and traverse the world, while doing it bypassing content and trivializing the world. Example of opinion: I love flight because it lets me do those things, I think it's great.

[Bun-Bun]

Its been answered many times.
It doesnt contribute to legion gameplay outside of convenience. Whether or not you accept that is a different story.

It contributes in gameplay to those that want/enjoy it.

- - - Updated - - -

The reworks are not based around flight or no flight. They are about engaging you with content, feeling like there is a reason to go do professions, to do world quests, to do dungeons.

Go read all the crap from the devs. At every turn they talk about how they are doing things in Legion to make things better without flight. They are trying to appease those that are mad about the removal of flight; the problem we don't want fixes, we want flight.

Flight has nothing to do with the above topics, professions, questing and the world. WoD removed flight and caused all the issues with the above independently of that. BC and WotLK didn't suffer in any way regarding those topics with flight being around.

So wheres your point again?

- - - Updated - - -

How much time did you invest in flying, really?

Saving up for epic flight, collecting flying mounts... hundreds of hours easily.

I bought WoD with the notion I would be able to fly, as I could in every expansion before. I was ripped off and never offered a refund.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, maybe you should read the full post then. Also, find a dictionary and look up the difference between opinion and fact. Example of fact: flight is an in game tool that allows you to mount a flying mount and traverse the world, while doing it bypassing content and trivializing the world. Example of opinion: I love flight because it lets me do those things, I think it's great.

I think you need to go look up the dictionary yourself. Bypassing content and trivializing the world is subject to debate. It is not fact.

Does flight get you accepted into dungeons/raids? Does flight help you beat a boss? Does flight help you skip a boss?

[Eapoe]

It contributes in gameplay to those that want/enjoy it.

- - - Updated - - -



Flight has nothing to do with the above. WoD removed flight and caused all the issues with the above independently of that. BC and WotLK didn't suffer in any way regarding those topics with flight being around.

So wheres your point again?

- - - Updated - - -



Saving up for epic flight, collecting flying mounts... hundreds of hours easily.

I bought WoD with the notion I would be able to fly, as I could in every expansion before. I was ripped off and never offered a refund.

- - - Updated - - -



I think you need to go look up the dictionary yourself. Bypassing content and trivializing the world is subject to debate. It is not fact.

Does flight get you accepted into dungeons/raids? Does flight help you beat a boss? Does flight help you skip a boss?

Seriously? Those questions make me wonder why I am responding to you. Flight bypasses mobs, it bypasses terrain, it bypasses the world, it bypasses world pvp, it bypasses the competition of making it to interactable objects that others without gold can not reach as fast. That is not up for debate. Those are facts, not opinions, and not debatable. How it makes you feel, and whether you like it or not, while doing those things are opinion.

[Raine2099]

Saving up for epic flight, collecting flying mounts... hundreds of hours easily.

I bought WoD with the notion I would be able to fly, as I could in every expansion before. I was ripped off and never offered a refund.

you were not offered a refund? I'm sorry but HAHAHA.

[SirCowdog]

The argument that they remove flight to extend content is weak IMO, i really dont think it has any grounds to base their decision on.
Any developer creating a game with the primary focus of thinking how long they can run a piece of content by slowing you down as much as possible is doomed to fail. Blizzard has made some stupid decisions before, but they are not that stupid.

Unless that game has a significant portion of it's profits derived from a time-based subscription. The conflict of interests is obvious.

How many times has it been stated that there's no possible way to create content fast enough to keep up with the rate of consumption? So instead of trying, you stretch the content as long and as far as possible, based on what players are willing to accept. I guarantee you this is the primary reason why flight was being removed. Because if it was about making a better game that would keep players more interested longer, they would have implemented a system of improving the gameplay of mounts in general instead of just cutting out the thing which allows players to move faster, and with more freedom.

This isn't to say that the underlying gameplay doesn't get better. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. But slowing players down and restricting their freedom is a multiplier.

I still think there are better options than the current pathfinder, but i also think pathfinder is better than paying 1k and now you fly.

I completely agree, as I think many of the people in the pro-flight camp would. Having a system of mounts(both ground and air) with more depth and a better unlock would feel a hell of a lot more engaging and interesting that either a simple gold cost, or having to clear a laundry list of chores that have nothing to do with flying.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, maybe you should read the full post then. Also, find a dictionary and look up the difference between opinion and fact. Example of fact: flight is an in game tool that allows you to mount a flying mount and traverse the world, while doing it bypassing content and trivializing the world. Example of opinion: I love flight because it lets me do those things, I think it's great.

FACT: Flying mounts allow me to get to the content I'm interested in without dealing with a bunch of trivial stuff in-between.

See how that works?

- - - Updated - - -

Does flight get you accepted into dungeons/raids? Does flight help you beat a boss? Does flight help you skip a boss?

Does flight kill monsters for you? Does flight click quest items for you? Does flight collect crafting mats for you?

Just more to the list. I'm not disagreeing. The content on the ground is still there. The only difference is whether I choose to engage with it or not.

[Eapoe]

Unless that game has a significant portion of it's profits derived from a time-based subscription. The conflict of interests is obvious.

How many times has it been stated that there's no possible way to create content fast enough to keep up with the rate of consumption? So instead of trying, you stretch the content as long and as far as possible, based on what players are willing to accept. I guarantee you this is the primary reason why flight was being removed. Because if it was about making a better game that would keep players more interested longer, they would have implemented a system of improving the gameplay of mounts in general instead of just cutting out the thing which allows players to move faster, and with more freedom.

This isn't to say that the underlying gameplay doesn't get better. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. But slowing players down and restricting their freedom is a multiplier.



I completely agree, as I think many of the people in the pro-flight camp would. Having a system of mounts(both ground and air) with more depth and a better unlock would feel a hell of a lot more engaging and interesting that either a simple gold cost, or having to clear a laundry list of chores that have nothing to do with flying.

- - - Updated - - -



FACT: Flying mounts allow me to get to the content I'm interested in without dealing with a bunch of trivial stuff in-between.

See how that works?

- - - Updated - - -



Does flight kill monsters for you? Does flight click quest items for you? Does flight collect crafting mats for you?

Just more to the list. I'm not disagreeing. The content on the ground is still there. The only difference is whether I choose to engage with it or not.

So your response to me and Bun shows that you use flight to skip content: "let's me get to content I want to deal with while skipping trivial things (content) on the way," and everything you added to that list is skipping things with flight.

[wing5wong]

It contributes in gameplay to those that want/enjoy it.

But it is not gameplay in and of itself. (if you count just flying in the air never actually doing anything, ever, then possibly, but no one can believe that is considered as a design consideration)

Go read all the crap from the devs. At every turn they talk about how they are doing things in Legion to make things better without flight. They are trying to appease those that are mad about the removal of flight; the problem we don't want fixes, we want flight.

Those decisions are not about flight or to appease those who must have (read:want) flight. Its about core gameplay that needs to be addressed.

Flight has nothing to do with the above. WoD removed flight and caused all the issues with the above independently of that. BC and WotLK didn't suffer in any way regarding those topics with flight being around.

WoD had no replayability in content. that was the problem.
Not the fact that you couldnt fly to it. Which content were you going to fly to in tanaan anyway.

So wheres your point again?

Flight is not content, and there is no flying content in legion.

Saving up for epic flight, collecting flying mounts... hundreds of hours easily.

I bought WoD with the notion I would be able to fly, as I could in every expansion before. I was ripped off and never offered a refund.

You can still collect these mounts, you can still use these mounts.
Epic flying was never stated to be oh pay 5k you can go as fast as possible for the unforeseeable future.
Did the WoD box actually say you can fly, or was that an assumption?

- - - Updated - - -

Unless that game has a significant portion of it's profits derived from a time-based subscription. The conflict of interests is obvious.

How many times has it been stated that there's no possible way to create content fast enough to keep up with the rate of consumption? So instead of trying, you stretch the content as long and as far as possible, based on what players are willing to accept. I guarantee you this is the primary reason why flight was being removed. Because if it was about making a better game that would keep players more interested longer, they would have implemented a system of improving the gameplay of mounts in general instead of just cutting out the thing which allows players to move faster, and with more freedom.

Theres obviously a balance that has to be struck here. To implement a world full of flying content would take a significant period of time, im sure you agree.
Making a better game would take a longer time. They dont have a long time to launch legion, they already planned to release it earlier than they currently are, and misjudged that.

[Taeldorian]

You quoted a post from last year, so yeah.

Seriously? My bad :P

[SirCowdog]

So your response to me and Bun shows that you use flight to skip content: "let's me get to content I want to deal with while skipping trivial things (content) on the way," and everything you added to that list is skipping things with flight.

When the content is trash, people will find a way to skip it. It doesn't have to be flight that they use to do it. If Blizzard wants people to not skip content, then they need to avoid making it trivial in the first place. Forcing people to slog through such weaksauce just makes them seek ways to avoid it, or quit. Taking away flight won't stop people from finding ways to skip things, but you're so fixated on blaming flight that you ignore everything else that's causing problems.


- - - Updated - - -

Which content were you going to fly to in tanaan anyway.

Rare hunting, most likely. Or the dailies. But that's about it, and not exactly the height of replayability.

there is no flying content in legion Beta.

Slight clarification. We know that Blizzard is planning on including flight in Legion somewhere near the middle of the expansion. It's entirely possible that it might also include more activities that use flight as well.

Theres obviously a balance that has to be struck here. To implement a world full of flying content would take a significant period of time, im sure you agree.
Making a better game would take a longer time. They dont have a long time to launch legion, they already planned to release it earlier than they currently are, and misjudged that.

Legion has supposedly been in development since some time during WoD. Although I'll grant it probably wasn't until Blizzard announced their reversed decision on "No-flying Ever Again", or Pathfinder, that they started to prepare Legion for flying. Hopefully it means flight is in 7.1, but I'm not holding my breath.

We've already talked about the different degrees of flight that could be used within the WoW game engine. Anything from simple anti-air cannons, to bombing runs, grapples and harpoons to pull or push flying people in different directions, air currents or other weather effects, all the way up to a complete overhaul of the entire mount system.

[Eapoe]

When the content is trash, people will find a way to skip it. It doesn't have to be flight that they use to do it. If Blizzard wants people to not skip content, then they need to avoid making it trivial in the first place. Forcing people to slog through such weaksauce just makes them seek ways to avoid it, or quit. Taking away flight won't stop people from finding ways to skip things, but you're so fixated on blaming flight that you ignore everything else that's causing problems.


- - - Updated - - -



Rare hunting, most likely. Or the dailies. But that's about it, and not exactly the height of replayability.




Slight clarification. We know that Blizzard is planning on including flight in Legion somewhere near the middle of the expansion. It's entirely possible that it might also include more activities that use flight as well.




Legion has supposedly been in development since some time during WoD. Although I'll grant it probably wasn't until Blizzard announced their reversed decision on "No-flying Ever Again", or Pathfinder, that they started to prepare Legion for flying. Hopefully it means flight is in 7.1, but I'm not holding my breath.

We've already talked about the different degrees of flight that could be used within the WoW game engine. Anything from simple anti-air cannons, to bombing runs, grapples and harpoons to pull or push flying people in different directions, air currents or other weather effects, all the way up to a complete overhaul of the entire mount system.

Nope, not ignoring anything, but the discussion is on flight. So we are talking about flight. If you find the content trash, that's whatever, but it doesn't diminish the fact that content is being skipped.

[SirCowdog]

Nope, not ignoring anything, but the discussion is on flight. So we are talking about flight. If you find the content trash, that's whatever, but it doesn't diminish the fact that content is being skipped.

We're talking about WoW in general, flying, WoD, and Legion in specific.

You also seem to be implying that all content deserves to be done. Not everyone wants to do everything, nor do it in the same way.

[Bun-Bun]

Seriously? Those questions make me wonder why I am responding to you. Flight bypasses mobs, it bypasses terrain, it bypasses the world, it bypasses world pvp, it bypasses the competition of making it to interactable objects that others without gold can not reach as fast. That is not up for debate. Those are facts, not opinions, and not debatable. How it makes you feel, and whether you like it or not, while doing those things are opinion.

People choose to do those things with or without flight. I only play on PVE servers because world PVP is just a bunch of lowlifes ganking people for sick pleasure.

- - - Updated - - -

you were not offered a refund? I'm sorry but HAHAHA.

If my company were to do what Blizzard did to its customers, I would be getting sued if I didn't refund my customers their money.

- - - Updated - - -

But it is not gameplay in and of itself. (if you count just flying in the air never actually doing anything, ever, then possibly, but no one can believe that is considered as a design consideration)


Those decisions are not about flight or to appease those who must have (read:want) flight. Its about core gameplay that needs to be addressed.


WoD had no replayability in content. that was the problem.
Not the fact that you couldnt fly to it. Which content were you going to fly to in tanaan anyway.


Flight is not content, and there is no flying content in legion.


You can still collect these mounts, you can still use these mounts.
Epic flying was never stated to be oh pay 5k you can go as fast as possible for the unforeseeable future.
Did the WoD box actually say you can fly, or was that an assumption?

- - - Updated - - -




Theres obviously a balance that has to be struck here. To implement a world full of flying content would take a significant period of time, im sure you agree.
Making a better game would take a longer time. They dont have a long time to launch legion, they already planned to release it earlier than they currently are, and misjudged that.

Flight is gameplay. It is a way to play the game. "Gameplay is the specific way in which players interact with a game"

And you can agree that flight wasn't the issue with all those things you listed about WoD, thats good.

You still haven't answered my question. BC, WotLK, MoP... all successful with flight.

And why would I collect mounts that I can't use?

The WoD artwork showed flying mounts and flying. The collectors edition came with a flying mount that I was unable to use.

[Eapoe]

We're talking about WoW in general, flying, WoD, and Legion in specific.

You also seem to be implying that all content deserves to be done. Not everyone wants to do everything, nor do it in the same way.

Again, no. Just implying that the main content Blizzard wants us to do FOR flight needs to be done.

[Squigglyo]

Would everyone be happy with a middle ground?

Flying enabled, but in every major hub some sort of anti flying force-field. Sort of like when your mounted near a Conquest Vendor.
Flying to and from locations can still happen and blizzard can turn on flying when they feel the time is right.


I would have been perfectly happy if I could have flown in WOD but was dismounted near the apexis hubs, main towns, etc.

[SirCowdog]

Again, no. Just implying that the main content Blizzard wants us to do FOR flight needs to be done.

Sure, as long as what Blizzard wants to require for flying has something that actually has anything to do with flight. Maybe some story progression, or something else in the lore that's relevant. And as long as there's equal amounts of flying and no-flying content. The pathfinder Laundry List isn't very good in this regard. Withholding flight until there's nothing worthwhile to use it on isn't very good either.

Legion has a chance to really make up for WoD, in a lot of different ways. The announcement that flying will be ready some ambiguous time halfway through the expansion is promising. But we all know what Blizzard's promises are worth right now.

- - - Updated - - -

Would everyone be happy with a middle ground?

Flying enabled, but in every major hub some sort of anti flying force-field. Sort of like when your mounted near a Conquest Vendor.
Flying to and from locations can still happen and blizzard can turn on flying when they feel the time is right.


I would have been perfectly happy if I could have flown in WOD but was dismounted near the apexis hubs, main towns, etc.

This thread(and many others) have already suggested all kinds of compromises. They're usually met with "Ground or GTFO". I would be less impressed with a force field type control over flight, and would much prefer more advanced types of deterrents to flight, such as weather or environmental effects, patrolling airships with flak cannons, or something that made sense within the context and lore of Azeroth.

[Eapoe]

Sure, as long as what Blizzard wants to require for flying has something that actually has anything to do with flight. Maybe some story progression, or something else in the lore that's relevant. And as long as there's equal amounts of flying and no-flying content. The pathfinder Laundry List isn't very good in this regard. Withholding flight until there's nothing worthwhile to use it on isn't very good either.

Legion has a chance to really make up for WoD, in a lot of different ways. The announcement that flying will be ready some ambiguous time halfway through the expansion is promising. But we all know what Blizzard's promises are worth right now.

Or play the game how Blizzard wants it played. As stated, if you don't like it that's completely understandable, but it's still their game. Even if they mess things up and ruin the game, it's still theirs.

[Dhrizzle]

Unless that game has a significant portion of it's profits derived from a time-based subscription. The conflict of interests is obvious.

How many times has it been stated that there's no possible way to create content fast enough to keep up with the rate of consumption? So instead of trying, you stretch the content as long and as far as possible, based on what players are willing to accept. I guarantee you this is the primary reason why flight was being removed. Because if it was about making a better game that would keep players more interested longer, they would have implemented a system of improving the gameplay of mounts in general instead of just cutting out the thing which allows players to move faster, and with more freedom.

This isn't to say that the underlying gameplay doesn't get better. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. But slowing players down and restricting their freedom is a multiplier.

You keep saying this, but you fail to address the fact that WoD stretched content the least of any expansion, in fact "not enough to do" is by far the biggest complaint. Compare WoD's single Apexis daily with minimal rewards to the several factions in Cata and WotLK that offered head/shoulder enchants and were a decent source of cash. I don't need to go into detail about how MoP stretched the daily content, but it seems quite clear that WoD overcorrected and did the opposite of what you're suggesting.

Of course I expect you to ignore this as it goes against your story that no-flight is objectively bad so the devs must have an ulterior motive beyond gameplay reasons.

FACT: Flying mounts allow me to get to the content I'm interested in without dealing with a bunch of trivial stuff in-between.

See how that works?

Does flight kill monsters for you? Does flight click quest items for you? Does flight collect crafting mats for you?

Just more to the list. I'm not disagreeing. The content on the ground is still there. The only difference is whether I choose to engage with it or not.

The problem is what you decide to label "trivial." WoW isn't an ARPG where anything that doesn't instantly gratify your need for tangible rewards is a pointless activity. Experiencing the World (of Warcraft) is a big part of the game. Flight might not kill mobs, click quest items or gather crafting mats, but it does trivialise the world apart from the few square metres around whatever you are targeting.

Ultimately, the devs have decided they want navigating the world and killing monsters to be part of the content. You might think it's wrong of them to "force" you to play the way they want, but that's what game design is all about. You may as well complain about having to go out and do anything, and demand they just hand you the rewards for logging in.