[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[RobertoCarlos]

Not a bad episode per say, just the series as a whole is feeling pretty rushed now.

The rickon death scene was well done and better than I thought it would be. And the "battle" was very well done and the slow mo focus again on Jon works great.

Danys scenes are so cringy now sadly

Also Sansa smirking like she did all the work and littlefinger doesnt even get a line was pretty annoying.

[Deleted]

This fight was quite epic. Jon had some massive balls to just stay in front of the cavalry charge like that.
And that long shot of him on a killing and dodging spree was really fantastic.

My only problem with this episode is that Umber was a cunt, and they just destroyed the Manderly plot from ever happening. Sad.

generally not a hater, but nothing this episode happened, that I didnt expect.

Spoils on this episode that are 100% accurate down to "Who holds the North" line have been out since episode 2 aired. So obviously no surprise.

And even if you didn't read the spoils, they heavily hinted that they had fewer men than Bolton's and that they would need the Eyrie. They weren't going for surprise value at all, it wasn't their aim.

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Not a bad episode per say, just the series as a whole is feeling pretty rushed now.

The rickon death scene was well done and better than I thought it would be. And the "battle" was very well done and the slow mo focus again on Jon works great.

Danys scenes are so cringy now sadly

Also Sansa smirking like she did all the work and littlefinger doesnt even get a line was pretty annoying.

Littlefinger's smirk was enough, he didn't need to say anything.

Get used to Dany she's been like that since the begining, won't change now. Good job Tyrion is there.
We know dragons burn stuff and shit they didn't need to show that again,so they failed a big opportunity to have the Greyjoy's save the day in Meereen, a shame.

[toxicrusader]

Likewise, this episode, we have a beautifully shot medieval battle scene - but the whole set up, execution, and denouement of it was literally terrible.

I'm with you sir.

I was a very well done battle scene, but the lack of commitment with some elements that would give the story behind it a deeper meaning made it plain ad dull, and yet there are a lot of people calling it the best episode ever, which is not.

This season is stalling since episode 1, and it had some inexcussable flaws, like the Dorne arch, or Blackfish dying for nothing offscene.

But they have a lot of people too much into the series already to lose something to that, but my hype is gone for the show, and I'm anxiously waint for Winds of Winter.

[Thrif]

Well, even though Rickon is dumber than a peanut, there's a deus ex army and jon has heavy plot armor +5 which reduces suspense by 100%, I throroughly enjoyed this episode and watched it all with a big grin on my face.

Seriously, that fight scene was incredible. Especially Jons one-shot scene. But in general it was all around enjoyable and even managed to blend in the gore and horror that was medieval warring, from the wounded guy shouting "help me" in despair to Jon almost being suffocated under bodies. Yes, it was more hollywood than one would've hoped from a series that has previously become known to be very non-hollywood, but I think we're stuck with this now and at least this was brilliantly executed, as opposed to the Arya fiasco.

Still looking way more forward to next episode though. The King's Landing intrigues interests me ten times more than any battle could at this point.

[Deleted]

Well, even though Rickon is dumber than a peanut, there's a deus ex army and jon has heavy plot armor +5 which reduces suspense by 100%, I throroughly enjoyed this episode and watched it all with a big grin on my face.

Seriously, that fight scene was incredible. Especially Jons one-shot scene. But in general it was all around enjoyable and even managed to blend in the gore and horror that was medieval warring, from the wounded guy shouting "help me" in despair to Jon almost being suffocated under bodies. Yes, it was more hollywood than one would've hoped from a series that has previously become known to be very non-hollywood, but I think we're stuck with this now and at least this was brilliantly executed, as opposed to the Arya fiasco.

Still looking way more forward to next episode though. The King's Landing intrigues interests me ten times more than any battle could at this point.

To be fair it wasn't a Deus ex Army at all. It's like saying Rohan in Pelenor fields battle is Deus ex army.
They did everything they could without being 100% open that the army of the Vale would come. Robyn saying they should help, help refused, emphasis on fewer numbers, Sansa's letter etc. A Deus Ex is someone that comes out of nowhere with no prior notice at all, this isn't the case it's hinted a few times.

Jon has plot armor but he still gets nicely crushed for a few scenes. Plus he got rezed once and put the emphasis on not wanting it to happen again, so you never know. Killing him at the begining of the fight would have been lame tho.

Rickon I have to agree, is very dumb, my first thought would be: "Right an arrow takes time to come, if I zig zag randomly every 2/3 seconds or so I should be okay"

The biggest fail for me is Umber being well anti-Umber and a cunt. He is supposed to be one of the biggest Stark supporters... Even if I knew he wouldn't do anything special, I secretly hoped that he would betray Ramsay. It would have been better than the Vale. Cause know Littlefinger is all "You owe me one I saved your bro and gave you back Winterfell, now get naked"

[Slant]

When Reddit is more positive about something than MMO-C, you know shit got real...

[Deleted]

When Reddit is more positive about something than MMO-C, you know shit got real...

Since when is MMO ever positive about anything? It's a lair of special snowflakes.

[Fincayra]

Yeah, I'm at a point of "screw the haters", this negativity is depressing...
I loved the episode, I don't give a goddamn fuck if some don't.

The best parts of the episode were without any doubt Davos and Tormund discussing before the battle (and Davos's look at Melisandre at the end, like "ooohh I'm gonna get you"). Oh, and Ramsay's end was so satisfying, and seeing the Stark flag on Winterfell felt good.

The negativity on the website is really starting to get to me. Any mentions of the Warcraft movie are met with a wall of people bitching about it to bitch, and now this thread is kinda becoming the same thing. People can't just enjoy something for what it is. They have to lament about what they think it SHOULD have been to the entire world, just because they have an audience.

Anyway, great season so far. I love the show, and I hope it continues to be great.

[Sooba]

I was also quite pleased with Dany's scenes. Her and those Dragons are so badass.

Just going to relink this. I don't think it's coincidence that word is the one so often used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek2O6bVAIQQ

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This entire fucking episode was badass.

Indeed, indeed.

[Thrif]

To be fair it wasn't a Deus ex Army at all. It's like saying Rohan in Pelenor fields battle is Deus ex army.
They did everything they could without being 100% open that the army of the Vale would come. Robyn saying they should help, help refused, emphasis on fewer numbers, Sansa's letter etc. A Deus Ex is someone that comes out of nowhere with no prior notice at all, this isn't the case it's hinted a few times.

Fine, it wasn't technically deus ex army. It was just a very predictable and boring way to solve the problem of being outnumbered. Nothing about playing Ramseys madness against himself, or Sansa knowing how to beat him, or being able to use their homeground advantage of knowing every nook and cranny of Winterfell, or any of the northern houses turning against Ramsey, either by being planned of having a change of heart upon seeing the Starks... There was a lot of possibility, but nope, let's just throw in a bigger army and call it a day. Who needs clever plots when we have all this fighting going on?

Jon has plot armor but he still gets nicely crushed for a few scenes. Plus he got rezed once and put the emphasis on not wanting it to happen again, so you never know. Killing him at the begining of the fight would have been lame tho.

I know. I wasn't expecting anything else. Just saying that for a show that used to be extremely suspenseful because nobody had plot armor, it feels silly to see Jon being in the middle of a huge, vastly dangerous fight with arrows raining down every split second and you dont feel an ounce of suspense.

Rickon I have to agree, is very dumb, my first thought would be: "Right an arrow takes time to come, if I zig zag randomly every 2/3 seconds or so I should be okay"

Not just Rickon, but Ramsey too. Realistically, there's no way you're good enough to hit a moving target at that range after that amount of time, even if he runs in a straight line. Especially not so it's lethal. Ramsey was basically giving up Rickon for free, which was just dumb all around.

I was expecting him to throw one or two shots, and then order all his bowmen to shoot at once, since that would've been a good guarantee for Rickon dying, and maybe he was hoping to get Jon as well. Jon having to stop his horse and realize that Rickon was dead when he saw the rain of arrows would've been way better.

The biggest fail for me is Umber being well anti-Umber and a cunt. He is supposed to be one of the biggest Stark supporters... Even if I knew he wouldn't do anything special, I secretly hoped that he would betray Ramsay. It would have been better than the Vale. Cause know Littlefinger is all "You owe me one I saved your bro and gave you back Winterfell, now get naked"

Everything would've been better than the Vale.

[Sooba]

I can sympathize but don't forget John doesn't give a fuck if he dies. His army believes he is Jesus and they have nothing better to do anyway. So I can justify the recklessness. The real flaw was Dragons burning down the ships. That scene needed more attention. But hey! Danny ftw!

I thought so at first. And then they made clear why the dragons didn't go apeshit but instead only burned 2 or 3. -- Dany wants the ships. Doesn't do much good to destroy them all.

[Tommy T]

The negativity on the website is really starting to get to me. Any mentions of the Warcraft movie are met with a wall of people bitching about it to bitch, and now this thread is kinda becoming the same thing. People can't just enjoy something for what it is. They have to lament about what they think it SHOULD have been to the entire world, just because they have an audience.

Anyway, great season so far. I love the show, and I hope it continues to be great.

It's a game of opinions and you have to accept that. All that matters, is that you enjoyed it and you are most definitely not alone.

[Sooba]

Yes, it's a definite character switch, but I think Jon is just trying to fiercely protect his family now that he can (couldnt when he was at the Wall).

It also doesn't fit because Jon was expressly told by Sansa that Ramsay was an expert at crushing hopes cruelly. Jon very well knew that was coming. And it really isn't in character for him to get himself and everyone else killed for senseless reasons.

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At the range Ramsay was firing, just a little zig and zag would have made it near impossible to hit him anyway. Silly kid.

Yup! haha. I was saying that to my girlfriend at the time. After every twang he should've simply started running in a different tack. It's something that any random person of that time would've known. Him not doing it seemed odd.

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Y'know, one thing I really didn't understand. Why didn't Wun Wun just grab a horse and start swinging it at the shield-wall? That would have cleared a pretty large path. Hell just start picking up bodies and throwing it at them. Those shields are heavy enough to hold upright without someone lobbing 200+ lb human bodies or horse bodies that way half a ton.

Or how about having a weapon at all? The writers disarmed him precisely because he would've been able to break out, which to me was weak. In the book the giants use a massive hammer -- which would've broken the shields of that wall to splinters.

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That will be shitty. Poor Jon.

I see it happening in the books. But not the show. We have officially gone into cliche (do what everybody be expects ) territory. The show will be enjoyable, but I don't think it will be the show we all fell in love with past this season.

Which I think is what I've been saying. I like it. It's just been diminished, somewhat.

[Eleccybubb]

Calling it now. Yara and Daenerys are gonna be getting busy at some point.

[Sooba]

I think they did one of the best jobs they've done all series long of depicting just how chaotic and dangerous a medieval battlefield would have been. Horses and arrows flying all over the place.

That part they did quite well. As well as capturing the danger of a pike wall.

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It was bloody amazing, especially when Tormund took a chunk out of the Smalljons neck.

I see what you did there.

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Joffrey and Ramsey were both acted exceedingly well. People may hate the character, but that is because the actors did such a good job.

Definitely.

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Ugh, it bugs me that Little Finger and his posse showed up in that fashion. I cringed at how cliche that whole thing was.

If they wanted Jon Snow to win, they should have thought up something more interesting than that. Felt like something out of a random Mel Gibson war movie.

You mean you're tired of badasses and the clichéd 11th-hour rescue in the nick of time? :P

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I was expecting Jon to go all super saiyan and shit when those horses started to charge but that didn't happen.


On a side note, besides the obvious plot armor, does anyone else think Jon might be unkillable? Sort of like Beric, even when sliced, he'll just keep coming back? I mean, there has to be a reason he was brought back. Is he going to be the Prince that was promised?

Mel was pretty clear that she will be repeatedly resurrecting him. The question is, will she still be around to do so?

[veehro]

That part they did quite well. As well as capturing the danger of a pike wall.

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I see what you did there.

Actually they did a HORRIBLE job on depicting a medieval battlefield.


1. No one in their right mind would fire arrows at their own men. Because

a) Boltons had twice as much men, they would of won the skirmish without the help of the archers.
b) Medieval battles were mostly won or lost on morale. If you are fighting for a comander who throws arrows at you after you charge...well... lets just say the men would not be very inclined to fight for you a second time and there would be mutiny in your ranks.
c) Cavalry was VEEEEERY expensive in the middle ages. peasants would not be able to afford a WAR horse. War horses were bread purely for war and they were more muscular and resilient then average horses. These warhorses were mounted by knights or sons of noblemen.
Shooting your noblemen sons willingly and for no reason would create massive turmoil in your army. You would not only risk asssassinations but you would risk outright civil war as people would consider you a madman.


2. They had a forrest behind them. Why would they not be fighting in the forest? It would prevent the boltons from using their cavalry charge and it would prevent them from doing their shield wall properly.

3. They allowed themselves to be encircled. That was pure madness. You would think one of them would of screamed "MEN fall back to high ground!! break off, form ranks!" But nope , instead they just stood there like idiots.

4. The boltons did fight like an ACTUAL military force. Shield wall with spear formations, similar to the romans. That is how a military battlefield would look like. Organized and methodical. It makes people know "there is a plan" and they need to follow the plan. It makes soldier feel safe and it makes morale high.
Johns soldiers fought like a bunch of 2016 amateurs. And if you would say "well they were savages". Then they should of been butchered by the nights watch and the white walkers ages ago. Because fighting like that does not have a chance against an organized medieval military.

It makes for good tv drama but it has 0 merit for an accurate view on ancient times.


I have made a video with a historian about this. Feel free to watch it if youd like to know more about the tactics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pcw2KnT7_4

[Sooba]

Yeah, I'm at a point of "screw the haters", this negativity is depressing...
I loved the episode, I don't give a goddamn fuck if some don't.

The best parts of the episode were without any doubt Davos and Tormund discussing before the battle (and Davos's look at Melisandre at the end, like "ooohh I'm gonna get you"). Oh, and Ramsay's end was so satisfying, and seeing the Stark flag on Winterfell felt good.

The issue isn't that we're haters. We're disappointed lovers. :P Some of us like having plausible setups to our fantastical battles.

I would agree about one thing though, the best part of the episode was the exchange between Tormund and Davos. Which fits with an observation I've had before, D&D are at their best with small scenes with emotional undertones. They did it with Arya and Tywin, with Tyrion and Oberyn, Tyrion and Jaime, Tormund and Brienne, Jaime and Brienne, etc etc etc.

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1. No one in their right mind would fire arrows at their own men. Because /Snip

Right mind? This is Ramsay.

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No one ever said D&D can't produce good battles. But I said this after Hardholme, and I'll say it tonight, the story is just shit. There's a reason there's no Hardhome in the book (well, there's a reason why what happened at Hardhome is just rumors), and it's because no man in the Night's Watch would fault Jon for letting the Wildlings south if they were at Hardhome. After the Fist of the First Men, every single man who survived is loyal to Jon, for good reason - because they've seen the White Walkers. The mutiny comes from men who weren't there, Stewards and Builders who still can't get past the idea that Wildlings are the enemy.
/Snip

Snipping for length even though I don't want to. Good post. Agreed with most of it.

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So why exactly did ramsay shot wun-wun in the eye instead of killing the distracted jon? Makes no sense to me.

Other than that, good episode, too predictable, but well directed.

That... is a good point.

[veehro]

1. No one in their right mind would fire arrows at their own men. Because /Snip

Ramsay was crazy but he was a good tactician and military comander. He managed to burn stanis's camp and also killed the rest of the men in an open battle.
He managed to convince the other northern house to suport him after he murdered his dad.

Him shooting arrow at his own men makes absolutely no sense

[pateuvasiliu]

I think the better question is why Ramsay met them in the field when his infantry/archers could've been inside the safety of Winterfell and his cavalry hidden somewhere in the woods so it can take Jon's army from the back when he sieges the walls.

Ramsay was crazy but he was a good tactician and military comander.

Another thing that makes little sense. Ramsay was a bastard, son of a peasant woman for most of his life. Why does he know strategy? He's only been chilling with Roose for a few years.

[Deleted]

Actually they did a HORRIBLE job on depicting a medieval battlefield.


1. No one in their right mind would fire arrows at their own men. Because

a) Boltons had twice as much men, they would of won the skirmish without the help of the archers.
b) Medieval battles were mostly won or lost on morale. If you are fighting for a comander who throws arrows at you after you charge...well... lets just say the men would not be very inclined to fight for you a second time and there would be mutiny in your ranks.
c) Cavalry was VEEEEERY expensive in the middle ages. peasants would not be able to afford a WAR horse. War horses were bread purely for war and they were more muscular and resilient then average horses. These warhorses were mounted by knights or sons of noblemen.
Shooting your noblemen sons willingly and for no reason would create massive turmoil in your army. You would not only risk asssassinations but you would risk outright civil war as people would consider you a madman.


2. They had a forrest behind them. Why would they not be fighting in the forest? It would prevent the boltons from using their cavalry charge and it would prevent them from doing their shield wall properly.

3. They allowed themselves to be encircled. That was pure madness. You would think one of them would of screamed "MEN fall back to high ground!! break off, form ranks!" But nope , instead they just stood there like idiots.

4. The boltons did fight like an ACTUAL military force. Shield wall with spear formations, similar to the romans. That is how a military battlefield would look like. Organized and methodical. It makes people know "there is a plan" and they need to follow the plan. It makes soldier feel safe and it makes morale high.
Johns soldiers fought like a bunch of 2016 amateurs. And if you would say "well they were savages". Then they should of been butchered by the nights watch and the white walkers ages ago. Because fighting like that does not have a chance against an organized medieval military.

It makes for good tv drama but it has 0 merit for an accurate view on ancient times.


I have made a video with a historian about this. Feel free to watch it if youd like to know more about the tactics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pcw2KnT7_4

Your points 2/3/4 make no sense.

Point 2: You talk about hidding in the forest, and allowed themselves to be surrounded, but I feel you didn't watch the episode.
Jon did have plans to avoid being encercled. But Ramsay is a better tactician and isn't as emotional as Jon. He used Rickon to lure Jon out of position, used his Archers to push him even closer to his cavalry. Forcing Jon's army to follow him and fall into Ramsay's trap.

Point 3: As stated above, Jon is a good fighter, but a crap tactician/commander. Once their army was out of position they got fucked by Ramsay's plan.
That doesn't mean it isn't a good depiction of Medival fighting, it just means someone got outplayed. And you work with a historian? Didn't it remind you of a certain battle with romans?

Point 4: Main force of Jon's army are undisciplined freefolk fighters, so yeah of course they fight like savages, they ARE savages.

Those three points are all turned as if the only real medival battles that existed were between forces that had the same strenghts. But no sometimes one side does get rekt, tactically or just outnumbered.
Your "ancient times" accuracy is solely based on TWO equal armies, with good commanders, good plans, good tactics. Who is being inaccurate here? Not every army was like that.