[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Sooba]

Ramsay was crazy but he was a good tactician and military comander. He managed to burn stanis's camp and also killed the rest of the men in an open battle.
He managed to convince the other northern house to suport him after he murdered his dad.

Him shooting arrow at his own men makes absolutely no sense

Small quibble, you quoted my own snipping of your post, rather than my post. haha.

I will grant you that it was a waste and expensive. I just don't think it's out of the realm of possbility for him.

As someone else has said, he really isn't a tactician. He was raised a peasant boy for quite some time, and his father never liked him. His septon and maester were afraid and avoided him. He never learned tactics at anyone's hand. His strength and stay have always been creativity in cruelty.

Which isn't to say he would 100% do it. I just find it less of a problem to suspension of disbelief than other elements in the show -- like the cliché 11th hour rescue, Jon's miraculous survival of a Knight's charge and volley after volley, and Ramsay not shooting an exposed Jon when his back was turned in favour of finishing off an incapacitated giant.

[veehro]

I think the better question is why Ramsay met them in the field when his infantry/archers could've been inside the safety of Winterfell and his cavalry hidden somewhere in the woods so it can take Jon's army from the back when he sieges the walls.



Another thing that makes little sense. Ramsay was a bastard, son of a peasant woman for most of his life. Why does he know strategy? He's only been chilling with Roose for a few years.

He said when fighting stanis he wants to look strong. Meeting them head on was a smart move since he would of won had it not been for the vale. And really there is absolutely no way he would of seen this coming.

Also the only victor here is little finger. And if he has any mind he would force sansa to mary him and own the north and the vale .
And i say force cause really what will she do about it? She is surrounded by his men now

[Deleted]

Damn that was satisfying.

[pateuvasiliu]

He said when fighting stanis he wants to look strong. Meeting them head on was a smart move since he would of won had it not been for the vale. And really there is absolutely no way he would of seen this coming.

Also the only victor here is little finger. And if he has any mind he would force sansa to mary him and own the north and the vale .
And i say force cause really what will she do about it? She is surrounded by his men now

Would be a weak move, too obvious.

LF knows about R+L = J, he should tell Jon and then manipulate him. Jon's Ned Stark's ''son'', he's not the brightest bulb when it comes to political schemes. He could be LF's puppet.

[Airlick]

No one ever said D&D can't produce good battles. But I said this after Hardholme, and I'll say it tonight, the story is just shit. There's a reason there's no Hardhome in the book (well, there's a reason why what happened at Hardhome is just rumors), and it's because no man in the Night's Watch would fault Jon for letting the Wildlings south if they were at Hardhome. After the Fist of the First Men, every single man who survived is loyal to Jon, for good reason - because they've seen the White Walkers. The mutiny comes from men who weren't there, Stewards and Builders who still can't get past the idea that Wildlings are the enemy.

And how is this different from the books? Only a few men have seen the White Walkers. The mutiny is indeed started by those who haven't, and Jon still had a few loyal men left. This is exactly the same as in the books. As for Hardhome, the Night's Watch rescued some of the wildlings by sea, and Tormund (and that wildling "princess" who was sister to Mance's wife, what was her name again?) led the rest to the Wall before the Others got there.

1) You have one character telling you what's going to happen, and not mentioning she's possibly got other help coming.
2) Same character warns other character not to fall into an emotional trap, and that their brother is probably dead.
3) Other character....watches brother die, falls into same emotional trap aforementioned, and battle goes precisely to his weaknesses after he touts how he knows battle and better odds were won against.

5) Deus ex machina from unmentioned potential allies.
6) Deus ex giant negating the need for a potential siege by one-shotting a door, as if there aren't any fortifications to Winterfell besides a big door.

1-2-3-8 - Sansa probably didn't realise that Littlefinger's army is equipped with jetpacks, she didn't know Littlefinger would come and even if he did, WHEN would that be. She saw that there is no way to convince Jon to wait. And could he wait, anyway? He had little support and it was waning. He needed a decisive battle. He also wouldn't probably be too happy with accepting outsiders' help. As for the traps, well, he underestimated Ramsay despite Sansa's threats. It was dumb by him, but I guess someone in his position could have gotten a bit arrogant. He probably thought Sansa overestimated Ramsay because she was in his hands for too long and she was powerless against him. He thought he could handle him, since he's a big boy and Sansa is just a girl.

5- I don't know how much foreshadowing do you need to predict that Littlefinger was coming at the last moment to save the day. Is it cliche? By all means, but it's within limits of reason. It's not like it's the first time it happens, except there were other actually deus ex machinas that nobody could have seen happen unless they read the books, like Lannisters and Tyrells beating up Stannis at King's Landing in the last possible moment. This one was absolutely predictable in comparison.

6 - Winterfell was burnt to the ground, the only thing left standing were the walls. The Boltons only had a few months to rebuild it, that's not enough time. So yes, that gate to the inner castle might have been just about the only defense, and it wasn't reinforced with metal, it was just a makeshift wooden gate. Winterfell also had a moat (at least in the books, I've never actually taken time to notice if it has a moat in the show), except it was probably all frozen by then. So yeah, they didn't have much defenses. And what siege are we talking about, anyway? Ramsay had 50 men back at the castle, they were all wiped out in the field.

Jesus, it's a shitshow that shines real well, and people are going to call this the best episode in forever because they don't give a fuck about an actual story that makes sense.

Why not:
a) Have Jon take Sansa's council to heart, and play Ramsay against himself? Sacrifice Rickon for the battle's formation? You've done nothing to build up Rickon and the emotional tie to him, why have this overly emotional reaction to his death that just lays complete waste to an already uneven battle?

c) Have a deeper plot with the Northmen who support the Boltons? The Umbers joining Ramsay is near unconscionable.

Because he's his brother, the only one left alive as far as Jon knows. A cold-minded person would understand what Ramsay was trying to do, but Jon Snow isn't accustomed to being powerless to act. He believes he can always do something more. Sansa knew he couldn't, she knew Rickon was as good as dead, but how could she have convinced Jon to just watch Rickon die? She couldn't.

It sucks that the northern plot is so shallow compared to the original, but the writers gave convenient reasons as to why there is no internal struggle in Ramsay's camp - Karstarks hate Starks for killing Rickon Karstark, and Smalljon Umber is a scumbag. And that's it, all the other houses either join Jon or remain neutral (though officially stay loyal to Boltons, like the Glovers).


I lol'd at Tyrion claiming they have enough ships to transport their army. This isn't Total War, you need more than 1 ship to transport a full army. A thousand ships may not be enough to transport both the Unsullied and the Dothraki, especially considering the ironborn ships are small. 100 of them, and let's just mercifully agree that the Masters had another 100 ships blocking Meereen, even if they've only shown a few dozens in the siege scenes. So, 200 ships? That may be enough to transport the Unsullied and the Second Sons, no way in hell any Dothraki would fit in. Let's also assume Dany wouldn't take all of her army with her, she'd leave some Unsullied and probably most of the Dothraki behind to keep Meereen safe from the Masters, or she'd send the Dothraki to conquer the other cities and install "democracies" there the way she tried with Astapor in the books. 200 ships is still not nearly enough. So maybe she'll demand ships from the Masters in exchange for leaving them alone. Let's be generous and assume that happens, but as of now, they DON'T have enough ships. D&D, please don't try to make idiots out of your audience. Oh, yeah, it wouldn't be the first time.

Anyway, I think Bastardbowl is going to play out pretty much the same way in the books, Sansa will convince Littlefinger to move against the Boltons, but I think the chronology will be slightly different. Makes no sense right now for Littlefinger to openly move against the Boltons, while Lannisters still hold the power - they are still allies on paper and attacking Boltons would mean attacking the Lannisters. Once King's Landing burns, it's free for all, I think that's the point when Littlefinger actually starts an open rebellion - and getting Sansa to rule the North is a fitting first step. Except it's also about the time for the Wall to go down, so he won't get to plot against the Lannisters.

Or maybe Stannis beats Ramsay, there is no Bastardbowl, and what happens is that Littlefinger actually fights Stannis, not the Boltons? That way he wouldn't even have to go against Lannisters yet - not until proclaiming Sansa, anyway.

[MrTharne]

It's funny how the bodies make perfect piles for Ramsay to use when the arrows were killing people in a large area and we never saw people climbing until those piles were there...
It's funny how the shield wall takes is sweet time instead of avancing more and more to kill all of them, but they just stall...what perfect luck for Littlefinger army.

It's also funny for the giant to not take a fucking tree into battle, that way the shield wall can last longer and be a threat, but add a tree and the wall is over in a matter of seconds.
Edit : Forgot that Jon is a rogue and can use Evasion.

Stupid convenience both ways.

More Davos please.

[Deleted]

Those combat scenes before they got surrounded by that shieldwall was amazing. Chaos, lots of shit happening, it was amazing.

Ramsay was the best character in GoT. He was portrayed so incredible.

Glad Tormund is still alive. Afterall, he is the face of the Wildlings, so I hoped he'd live. If he were to die, the Wildlings pretty much would stop getting any screentime since Tormund is the only one we know. After WunWun that is

[Deleted]

That episode was everything that I had hoped it would be and then some. Actually seeing it was much better than fantasizing about it in my head all season.

When the army of the Vale came over that hill I suffered from one 5 min long nerdgasm that I am only now just recovering from. When the Stark banner was unfurled again along the wall of Winterfell I almost burst into triumphant tears. After all of that suffering and death and misery, the Starks hold Winterfell again. Now, Arya is on her way home and Bran is...well...still boring, but still! Winterfell has come home

I cannot wait to see what happens in episode 10. The finale next week should be a good wrap up of the season and set the tone for Season 7.

The North remembers! YES!

Hold Winterfell? With what? 200 men? Sansa told that dumbass jon to look out for ramsay's tricks n rickon was as good as dead, yet jon was a sucker...90% of his army dead, all unless for Vale. How many would be alive if he stuck t tactics? This was a Pyrrhic victory, now any force can run over the north.
After victory I was glad wun wun made it, but jon wastes him for fast revenge...
I hope lady Mormont survived...

Dany looked bored...

[veehro]

Hold Winterfell? With what? 200 men? Sansa told that dumbass jon to look out for ramsay's tricks n rickon was as good as dead, yet jon was a sucker...90% of his army dead, all unless for Vale. How many would be alive if he stuck t tactics? This was a Pyrrhic victory, now any force can run over the north.
After victory I was glad wun wun made it, but jon wastes him for fast revenge...
I hope lady Mormont survived...

Dany looked bored...

In reality castles would be held with anywhere between 20-50 men. The more men you have the worse it is because there is a higher chance of having arguments between the soldiers, run out of food etc

[Deleted]

Hold Winterfell? With what? 200 men? Sansa told that dumbass jon to look out for ramsay's tricks n rickon was as good as dead, yet jon was a sucker...90% of his army dead, all unless for Vale. How many would be alive if he stuck t tactics? This was a Pyrrhic victory, now any force can run over the north.
After victory I was glad wun wun made it, but jon wastes him for fast revenge...
I hope lady Mormont survived...

Dany looked bored...

Dany has looked bored, and is boring since season 2 don't know why people still wonder.
Jon is a poor tactician yes and didn't listen to his sister, loads of men died and he would have lost without the Vale.

As for holding Winterfell, it can be held it's not a problem. The Umbers are no more, the Karstarks are no more, the other Northern Houses won't rebel because they were just under Ramsay by fear, and/or they don't have the men anyway.
The only dangerous armies are the Lannisters, Tyrells and the other one is in Essos.
With the shit going down in KL, the Lannisters and Tyrells will have their hands full, and even more so when dany crosses.

The problem is that they will be no armies left against the WW (which is the whole point of the story I know)

[draynay]

It was a 'by the numbers' fan service episode. I think people would be less critical if they weren't so beat down by bad storytelling this season. There wasn't much storytelling to be found here either, just big scale effects shots with precious little context aside from "those guys/that guy is bad, let's get 'em". We got used to better and its been wearing us out to have things sink to this level. I enjoy what was here, there was just so little substance to it, needed something other than the pure sugar episode 9 was serving up.

Well...we KINDA did.

One of the best parts of the episode was seeing what happens when Ramsay repeatedly tried his "bullying" stuff on men who did not give two fucks. I mean, the faces of Jon, Tormund, Davos, Sansa and everyone else as he tried his little nonsense on them were priceless.

Edit: Oh yeah, even Lady Mormont looked at him like she was thinking, "Holy shit just shut up and fuck off."

This was my favorite part, Ramsay trying to play mind games with people he hadn't been torturing for days and thinking it would have any effect. There was a collective eye roll.

[Lime]

A bit of a predictable episode, but man, that didn't stop it from being absolutely amazing.

And I think we all know what the next episode will be considering how many hints they're dropping. Or maybe a plot for the next season (unlikely).

[Fencers]

I thought s6e9 was one of the best episodes ever for the series. Super emotional. I was water eyed from the moment Tyrion spoke to Dany up to the Stark banner flying from the walls of Winterfell.

What a payoff!

* Stannis was the true king *

[Lime]

That trample scene with Jon was brutal, but amazing. I've never actually seen that portrayed in movies/shows that well.

[Fencers]

Whatever the production budget was for this episode put to shame what I have seen from films. The excitement and spectacle has rarely been matched in the modern era of film. I remember feeling this way when I saw Braveheart with my dad the week it was released.

The in-camera action was great, but the structuring of the scenes at Meereen was tops!

Terrific direction for the episode! I actually clapped aloud in my own living room at the end.

[Tommy T]

Whatever the production budget was for this episode put to shame what I have seen from films. The excitement and spectacle has rarely been matched in the modern era of film. I remember feeling this way when I saw Braveheart with my dad the week it was released.

The in-camera action was great, but the structuring of the scenes at Meereen was tops!

Terrific direction for the episode! I actually clapped aloud in my own living room at the end.

The fist pump I did when the other two dragons were released.
Hell to the yes.


Also, where the fuck is Ghost?
Deserved a cameo at the battle.

[Ahovv]

This episode currently holds a perfect 10/10 imdb rating. Insane.

[Fencers]

I don't think Jon Snow is the 'Prince that was promised'. He's a great fighter, a man of respectable passion but he is a [consistently] shitty battlefield commander. Jeez.

Littlefinger still being the most amazing player at the game.

I swear I almost yawp! aloud when it looked like Tormund Giantsbane might go down. Not Tormund. He and Brianne need to make babies, please.

[Champagne Supernova]

Best episode ever. Though it would've been more satisfying if they Flayed Ramsay instead. Hope they send whatever is left of Ramsay to Walder Frey, stating that he is next. And Rickon should've Zig Zagged, common tactic : D

[pateuvasiliu]

I don't think Jon Snow is the 'Prince that was promised'. He's a great fighter, a man of respectable passion but he is a [consistently] shitty battlefield commander

The Prince that was promised doesn't have to be.

He just needs to kill the Night's King.

The only great commander left in Westeros is Ranyll Tarly and I'm pretty sure he's not Azor Ahai.