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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    We've changed the relative of WoD's universe B immensely, sure, but it doesn't do anything to change our primary universe A.
    One problem was their clarification that there is but one Burning Legion, akin to the forces of Apokalips in the DC universe. While this can work as it does in DC, WoW encounters the problem that in theory the Burning Legion should never, ever be beaten if they can pool forces from [infinite] alternative realities.

    They stated the Archimonde we fight at the end of WOD is the same as the one we also saw at Hyjal. Therefore Mannoroth is the same, as would be any other demon present [Archi trash, etc.] Any demon we kill in WOD returns to the Twisting Nether so they can reconstitute and return - as explained in the Chronicle [also why pre-fall Sargeras created Mardun as the prison world to stop this constant respawning of demons]. However primary universe A already has a Socrethar wandering around a floating rock in Netherstorm. That plot twist where he declared that name in the SMV quest was likely done in fan service to TBC players - I certainly got that feeling from it. [Likewise the inversion of the Blackhand/Ogrim story in Talador was similar fan service].

    The problem however is that our defeat of Socrethar outside Shattrath wouldn't permanently kill him, since he's a demon by that point, so he would eventually return. Even though we encounter his spirit in HFC and defeat him again his dying words are "The Nether, it consumes me!" indicating he's returning to the Nether to regenerate.

    While it could be argued that perhaps Socrethar A is originally Socrethar B and once he returns he comes to Universe A, the fact they originate from an exarch that isn't a demon means each universe can likely have an Exarch Othaar. So every Exarch Othaar can then potentially become a Socrethar, permitting probability that not every Othaar will, and with no limit on universes [Kairozdormu line about "an infinite number of worlds" during his Ring chain battle] then the Burning legion shouldn't really ever be stopped if they manage to actually invade in full force. Even if they can't, unless we can kill demons in the Nether, it's just a stalling tactic until they finally get everything ready to drop a hammer down with the force of an 'infinite mass punch'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jochie View Post
    The expansion didnt make sense to me either.

    We destoyed the dark portal in the opening quest chain and somehow we get resources over to draenor.
    You can say Khadgar opened portals to our world, but how did he make cross universe portals?
    Same goes for the portals in ashran.

    I have never been a fan of time travel though the dungeons are one thing a whole expansion didnt make much sense in my eyes.
    He portals in resources just as you set up your garrison as a one time thing.

    He does this for perhaps a minute tops due to the power it needs.

    The portals in Ashran are simply for player convenience and don't actually exist story wise.
    If you set a man a flame, you keep him warm for a day. If you set a man aflame, you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

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  2. #22
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandMax View Post
    Garrosh goes back in time to Draenor age, creating alternate timeline. In this timeline orc clans form "iron horde", their mission is to conquer azeroth of the "original" universe. This doesnt really make sense since if they build portal in this alternate universe, the portal will lead to alternate Azeroth, not the one players are in, so the original Azeroth was never in danger of orc invasion. The whole premise of expansion doesnt make sense, unless somehow the portal built in alternate universe leads to Azeroth in original universe.
    The Dark Portal of AU Dreanor was linked to MU Azeroth by the same magic that sent Garrosh back. It is just like the Caverns of time instances but a larger scale. Kairoz wanted to create an army that could be used to stop the Legion. And then replicate that many times. Garrosh killed Kairoz but that didn't stop the magic that had already linked the two time lines.

    It makes sense. Garrosh, Orcs, and the Legion all exploited that link. Maybe they thought they would go to AU Azeroth. Maybe they knew where they were going. Kairoz had to link the two timelines in some fashion to take a large army through to Azeroth. The Dark portal is the logical choice for Draenor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jochie View Post
    The expansion didnt make sense to me either.

    We destoyed the dark portal in the opening quest chain and somehow we get resources over to draenor.
    You can say Khadgar opened portals to our world, but how did he make cross universe portals?
    Same goes for the portals in ashran.

    I have never been a fan of time travel though the dungeons are one thing a whole expansion didnt make much sense in my eyes.
    How did Kairoz and Garrosh get their? Travel between the two wasn't impossible once the time ways were linked. It was hard and a large scale movement was even harder without proper magic. Attuning, studying, understanding the magic would make it easier as time went on.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #23
    Brewmaster SteveRocks's Avatar
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    I think WoD's story made sense, I just didn't like it all that much and I think the story concepts were not portrayed very well to the players.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord Leih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    This picture explains it all:
    <PICTURE OF DOC FROM BTTF>
    Came here to post this. Beat me to it

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Devidose View Post
    One problem was their clarification that there is but one Burning Legion, akin to the forces of Apokalips in the DC universe. While this can work as it does in DC, WoW encounters the problem that in theory the Burning Legion should never, ever be beaten if they can pool forces from [infinite] alternative realities.

    They stated the Archimonde we fight at the end of WOD is the same as the one we also saw at Hyjal. Therefore Mannoroth is the same, as would be any other demon present [Archi trash, etc.] Any demon we kill in WOD returns to the Twisting Nether so they can reconstitute and return - as explained in the Chronicle [also why pre-fall Sargeras created Mardun as the prison world to stop this constant respawning of demons]. However primary universe A already has a Socrethar wandering around a floating rock in Netherstorm. That plot twist where he declared that name in the SMV quest was likely done in fan service to TBC players - I certainly got that feeling from it. [Likewise the inversion of the Blackhand/Ogrim story in Talador was similar fan service].

    The problem however is that our defeat of Socrethar outside Shattrath wouldn't permanently kill him, since he's a demon by that point, so he would eventually return. Even though we encounter his spirit in HFC and defeat him again his dying words are "The Nether, it consumes me!" indicating he's returning to the Nether to regenerate.

    While it could be argued that perhaps Socrethar A is originally Socrethar B and once he returns he comes to Universe A, the fact they originate from an exarch that isn't a demon means each universe can likely have an Exarch Othaar. So every Exarch Othaar can then potentially become a Socrethar, permitting probability that not every Othaar will, and with no limit on universes [Kairozdormu line about "an infinite number of worlds" during his Ring chain battle] then the Burning legion shouldn't really ever be stopped if they manage to actually invade in full force. Even if they can't, unless we can kill demons in the Nether, it's just a stalling tactic until they finally get everything ready to drop a hammer down with the force of an 'infinite mass punch'.

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    He portals in resources just as you set up your garrison as a one time thing.

    He does this for perhaps a minute tops due to the power it needs.

    The portals in Ashran are simply for player convenience and don't actually exist story wise.
    How can archimonde be same archimonde from hyjal? If the hyjal happened in our timeline, but didnt in alternate timeline then there must be two archimondes! Did blizzard explain the physics of how thise are actually the same? If there are two of everything basicly, how demons are any different?

    This theory requires, that demons have special feature that would somehow make them fuse together or the duplicates would cease to exist if they gathered up.

  6. #26
    Read the chronicles and illidan book.
    1 legion is destroying all timelines to stop a dark titan from being born
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by SandMax View Post
    How can archimonde be same archimonde from hyjal? If the hyjal happened in our timeline, but didnt in alternate timeline then there must be two archimondes! Did blizzard explain the physics of how thise are actually the same? If there are two of everything basicly, how demons are any different?

    This theory requires, that demons have special feature that would somehow make them fuse together or the duplicates would cease to exist if they gathered up.
    That speciel feature is the nether, where they return to when "slain" in the world.
    "Everything always changes. The best plan lasts until the first arrow leaves the bow." - Matrim Cauthon

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrus View Post
    That speciel feature is the nether, where they return to when "slain" in the world.
    But why cant there be parallel nethers? Also doesnt still make sense, since obviously there are parallel universes where the "same" demons exist, so why cant the nether support thise demons co-existing in the same universe?

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    This picture explains it all:
    I love that picture. not only it explains the confusing and stupid events of WoD in a correct and elegant way, it also features some clever extra details from Back to the Future (most noteworthy is 1.21 GW)

    It also triggered the question if it is lorewise still possible to travel to Outlands

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by SandMax View Post
    Also doesnt still make sense, since obviously there are parallel universes where the "same" demons exist
    Says who? maybe they all appear at different times, so if one demon spawns in our universe, it can't spawn in another, until we have killed it or it returns to the nether it self?

    Also, the concept of having a "nothingness" or "a phase of chaos", that exists between universes, is pretty normal. I find it appears in almost all stories, that include multiple universes. So, I don't have a problem with it, in blizzards version, it just happens, that demons are bound to this chaos phase.
    "Everything always changes. The best plan lasts until the first arrow leaves the bow." - Matrim Cauthon

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Wow View Post
    Not only was the portal able to connect to an alt universe it was able to do time travel as well since they didn't go to our universe at the time period that they were in. The story is so bad so if they can go anywhere at anytime why would they come here? Because garrosh said "hey can you kill these people thanks" lol?
    Pretty much it was supposed to be an ego trip for him. "Hey look bitches I have an army now" Nobody ever said Garrosh was the smartest orc.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrus View Post
    Says who? maybe they all appear at different times, so if one demon spawns in our universe, it can't spawn in another, until we have killed it or it returns to the nether it self?
    That doesnt really work out, because apparenty the alternate timelines march forward "simultaneusly". When orcs were offered the blood of mannoroth, the same event happened in the original timeline universe at the same time, which means that two Mannoroth instances existed simultaneusly in two universes.

    Only explanation could be, that thise universes dont operate on "common time", but nether operates in universal time and can only link demons to one universe at a time, but it seems to us that they exist simultaneusly everywhere.
    Last edited by SandMax; 2016-06-20 at 08:39 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneFrostFire View Post
    I love that picture. not only it explains the confusing and stupid events of WoD in a correct and elegant way, it also features some clever extra details from Back to the Future (most noteworthy is 1.21 GW)

    It also triggered the question if it is lorewise still possible to travel to Outlands
    Mages. Same way we get back from Draenor. Mages are attuned to a location similar to a hearthstone and can open portals to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanjin View Post
    Read the chronicles and illidan book.
    1 legion is destroying all timelines to stop a dark titan from being born
    The problem with that is they'll never succeed since there are infinite timelines as Wrathion and Kairoz originally wanted MANY armies not just 1 iron horde. So basically Sargeras would need to keep destroying Azeroth forever and he can't even destroy ours.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Mages. Same way we get back from Draenor. Mages are attuned to a location similar to a hearthstone and can open portals to it.

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    The problem with that is they'll never succeed since there are infinite timelines as Wrathion and Kairoz originally wanted MANY armies not just 1 iron horde. So basically Sargeras would need to keep destroying Azeroth forever and he can't even destroy ours.
    Kairoz wanted an infinite army.
    Wrathion just wanted an army strong enough to protect azeroth.
    Sargeras is insane. what do you expect?
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  15. #35
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandMax View Post
    But we went to Draenor because of the orc invasion from portal, we stopped that from happening so events leading to this timetravel didnt happen at all = paradox
    The Orc invasion from Universe B (WoD's universe), made from a rerouted Dark Portal connecting us to Universe B. Anything done to WoD's universe (e.g. killing most of the clan chieftains, having Tanaan practically destroyed by Fel, etc. etc.) has zero effect on our Outland, which is in our primary universe A. We could've technically blown WoD's Draenor to smithereens without worry about Outland, because it belongs entirely to another universe's continuity of events. Kairoz and Garrosh did this on purpose, both to avoid a fatal paradox and to bolster their forces of what are essentially copies of Draenor's luminary Warlords.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanjin View Post
    Kairoz wanted an infinite army.
    Wrathion just wanted an army strong enough to protect azeroth.
    Sargeras is insane. what do you expect?
    Kairoz wanted nothing. He was a pawn simply because he had what Wrathion needed for a plan. Wrathion was pissed at both sides at the end of MoP, but still didn't want the legion to win. He was along for the ride. Wrathion was standing there the whole time we made the means of their travel possible.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    WoD's alternate timeline had one interesting potential: Since it wasn't in the main timeline, we could have lost for once.

    What a bloody waste.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Kairoz wanted nothing. He was a pawn simply because he had what Wrathion needed for a plan. Wrathion was pissed at both sides at the end of MoP, but still didn't want the legion to win. He was along for the ride. Wrathion was standing there the whole time we made the means of their travel possible.
    you didnt read the short story did you?
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Radaney View Post
    It was fucking nonsense made up to tie into the movie.
    This guy gets it.

    Of course it doesnt make sense. Ask yourself this, why would Blizz want to reintroduce old lore characters that have no impact on our past lore? Where would we see these characters again? Why would it be important to recognize them?

    WoD was one big fucking commercial for the movie. Its why Blizz didnt give two shits about actually trying to make it a decent x-pac.

  20. #40
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devidose View Post
    One problem was their clarification that there is but one Burning Legion, akin to the forces of Apokalips in the DC universe. While this can work as it does in DC, WoW encounters the problem that in theory the Burning Legion should never, ever be beaten if they can pool forces from [infinite] alternative realities.
    Sargeras's Burning Crusade also appears to contend with the multiverse, so as he actively recruits from all continuities/universes he also has to field armies to all universes as well. He can't focus his efforts entirely on a single universe at a time (bringing to bear his infinite forces) because otherwise the infinite universes could then be organized and mobilized against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devidose View Post
    They stated the Archimonde we fight at the end of WOD is the same as the one we also saw at Hyjal. Therefore Mannoroth is the same, as would be any other demon present [Archi trash, etc.] Any demon we kill in WOD returns to the Twisting Nether so they can reconstitute and return - as explained in the Chronicle [also why pre-fall Sargeras created Mardun as the prison world to stop this constant respawning of demons]. However primary universe A already has a Socrethar wandering around a floating rock in Netherstorm. That plot twist where he declared that name in the SMV quest was likely done in fan service to TBC players - I certainly got that feeling from it. [Likewise the inversion of the Blackhand/Ogrim story in Talador was similar fan service].

    The problem however is that our defeat of Socrethar outside Shattrath wouldn't permanently kill him, since he's a demon by that point, so he would eventually return. Even though we encounter his spirit in HFC and defeat him again his dying words are "The Nether, it consumes me!" indicating he's returning to the Nether to regenerate.
    If Socrethar was already a demon at the time of his defeat in HFC, then his appearance in Outland during TBC is easily explained away by the fact that he was reconstituted in the Nether beforehand. It wouldn't be information we'd know at the time in any case, as in TBC we just knew Socrethar was a minor Eredar with a personal beef with the Scryers and Aldor. In this case, Othaar and whoever he was in the primary universe both made the decision to join the Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devidose View Post
    While it could be argued that perhaps Socrethar A is originally Socrethar B and once he returns he comes to Universe A, the fact they originate from an exarch that isn't a demon means each universe can likely have an Exarch Othaar. So every Exarch Othaar can then potentially become a Socrethar, permitting probability that not every Othaar will, and with no limit on universes [Kairozdormu line about "an infinite number of worlds" during his Ring chain battle] then the Burning legion shouldn't really ever be stopped if they manage to actually invade in full force. Even if they can't, unless we can kill demons in the Nether, it's just a stalling tactic until they finally get everything ready to drop a hammer down with the force of an 'infinite mass punch'.
    I think the choice for a given "echo" in a given continuity to join the Legion is actually more rare than it is common - this limits the Legion's forces across the multiverse further and explains better their quasi-immortality save destruction in the Twisting Nether. That being said - Socrethar's death in TBC might've been his final death because of Outland in general (and Netherstorm in specific) and its closeness to the Twisting Nether. As WoD was still in the relative past it would make HFC his first death as a demon, and TBC his second death in his own timeline's future - he has yet to re-appear in Legion unlike most of his fellows, so he may be truly dead.

    TL;DR version: while the Legion's forces are effectively infinite, so too are the number of battlegrounds they must field their forces. While the equation is still against the resistance forces such as Azeroth's people, it's not a completely hopeless struggle (and there are perhaps greater powers supporting us that we haven't fully seen as of yet).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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