20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[primalmatter]

It can do difficult content well. That's all it needs to do. It doesn't have to provide the exact same experience as the 25-man version just to justify existing.

Also it would definitely be possible to make 10-mans more difficult than 25, either tuning-wise or mechanically. Tuning is just a numbers game, and Blizzard could increase the volume and complexity of mechanics on 10-man commensurate with the increased room to play with. Or, hell, the 10-man room could be made smaller.

They didn't tune Amalgam of Corruption though they flat out gutted the fight. To claim it was half as hard the second week as it was the first is stretching it. We already saw ten mans struggle throughout cata and finally break down in MoP. You can have ten man content but the zone and encounters need to be designed with 10 in mind from the start if you want it to hit mythic difficulty otherwise you are more or less locked to heroic as a cap.

[kary]

In mythic? Yeah to be honest there are a few that would have to be either changed or made mind numbing easy to accommodate ten mans. Black hand, Emperor, Butcher, that rock guy who says "even the mountain falls"

Hell take that sha boss in SoO after the first week they gutted the ten man version because killing that boss was on par with killing Malkorok.

Ten just can't do difficult content as well.

I can imagine how clear the room would be doing mythic kormrok
Or how fun gorefiend would be. The logistics would be awesome.
Zakuun would be interesting.

[Deleted]

Isn't 20m mythic too hard for the people who demand nos?

[Relapses]

It's the worst it's ever been since the 10/25 scheme was implemented in Wrath.

Based off of what? A national consensus of Mythic raiders? Or your anecdotal opinion?

How. How would it possibly not have "survived". Like "Wow this encounter was so badly tuned we HAVE TO DELETE 10-MANS RIGHT NOW!"? Is that really a thing that would have happened?

Tuning encounters around two separate raid sizes led to encounters which were inexorably under/overtuned on one raid size vs. the other. The dual raid size hierarchy wasn't universally better for the game and any arguments made otherwise are largely the byproduct of personal preference.

[primalmatter]

I can imagine how clear the room would be doing mythic kormrok
Or how fun gorefiend would be. The logistics would be awesome.
Zakuun would be interesting.

There is that but room size plays a important role as well. Take Kara and ZA both have fairly small rooms when you compare them to current raids. Scaling just isn't as smooth as people like. I can't see us going back with flex now but if we did the most likely situation would be ten man mythic wouldn't give a mount and reward much poorer loot.

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Isn't 20m mythic too hard for the people who demand nos?

I could be most raiding wasn't hard from a gameplay stand point in vanilla save naxx and some of AQ.

Vanilla was more about growing in power by inches and slowly pushing through content then todays kill the 8 easy bosses before hitting the first speed bump mythic.

[Relapses]

It can do difficult content well. That's all it needs to do. It doesn't have to provide the exact same experience as the 25-man version just to justify existing.

Also it would definitely be possible to make 10-mans more difficult than 25, either tuning-wise or mechanically. Tuning is just a numbers game, and Blizzard could increase the volume and complexity of mechanics on 10-man commensurate with the increased room to play with. Or, hell, the 10-man room could be made smaller.

Actually, I take back everything I said earlier. You're clueless. You think that raid tuning numbers exist in a hyperbolic time chamber and Blizzard can just whimsically shit out a perfectly tuned raid instance at the drop of a hat. Then to go even further and say, "just make the 10M room smaller," I just. There are no words. Please stop arguing this subject, you have no clue what you're talking about.

[kary]

Based off of what? A national consensus of Mythic raiders? Or your anecdotal opinion?




Tuning encounters around two separate raid sizes led to encounters which were inexorably under/overtuned on one raid size vs. the other. The dual raid size hierarchy wasn't universally better for the game and any arguments made otherwise are largely the byproduct of personal preference.

dem dere be too much big fancy words, son.
my feelings matter, my friends quit because they cant pretend to be good in 10 man heroic

[stevenho]

Vanilla was more about growing in power by inches and slowly pushing through content then todays kill the 8 easy bosses before hitting the first speed bump mythic.

Nah.
90% of vanilla raids were cleared in days, save for a few bugged or overtuned last bosses.
Only thing that took like 2 weeks to get to was ragnaros. That's not inches and that's not slow. It was also during a time when noone raided 16hrs a day 7 days a week for the first 3 weeks.

[Deleted]

I could be most raiding wasn't hard from a gameplay stand point in vanilla save naxx and some of AQ.

Vanilla was more about growing in power by inches and slowly pushing through content then todays kill the 8 easy bosses before hitting the first speed bump mythic.

The game was very easy compared to now... I think blizz did a very good job do transfer individual skill into time.

[Gorthezar]

Personally I say fail, They killed the 10 man community and that was honestly still my favorite way to raid.

[primalmatter]

Nah.
90% of vanilla raids were cleared in days, save for a few bugged or overtuned last bosses.
Only thing that took like 2 weeks to get to was ragnaros. That's not inches and that's not slow. It was also during a time when noone raided 16hrs a day 7 days a week for the first 3 weeks.

You are telling me BWL was cleared out in a week? The raid where if everyone didn't have a cloak they automatically died?

Let me guess you also think world legendary items are like the vanilla experience of finding a world epic don't ya lad?\

At least google search your lies to make them believable.

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The game was very easy compared to now... I think blizz did a very good job do transfer individual skill into time.

It was mechanically easier in the sense most bosses save naxx (classic naxx the bosses actually had more abilities then 80 naxx) were easier to kill. Vanilla was just... I think the word I want is paced better? I will admit that TBC is the gem in wow's crown for me personally but I did enjoy Vanilla.

[Glorious Leader]

The game was very easy compared to now... I think blizz did a very good job do transfer individual skill into time.

It was ridiculously easier compared to now. Fights weren't bloated with abilities and playing your characther was much simpler. The same is true of tbc as well. One button no focus bm hunters topping dmg charts ggm

[stevenho]

You are telling me BWL was cleared out in a week? The raid where if everyone didn't have a cloak they automatically died?

I am telling you what I wrote.
BWL was cleared in 48h except for the overtuned Nef who lived long.

[primalmatter]

It was ridiculously easier compared to now. Fights weren't bloated with abilities and playing your characther was much simpler. The same is true of tbc as well. One button no focus bm hunters topping dmg charts ggm

Walking into the boss room the wrong way insta killed the entire raid as well..

I get it you want to believe the game has gotten more challenging and in some ways but vanilla was not the utter cake walk you believe it was.

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I am telling you what I wrote.
BWL was cleared in 48h except for the overtuned Nef who lived long.

So it was cleared except it wasn't actually cleared?

*golf clap*

[Bonezerker]

Nah.
90% of vanilla raids were cleared in days, save for a few bugged or overtuned last bosses.
Only thing that took like 2 weeks to get to was ragnaros. That's not inches and that's not slow. It was also during a time when noone raided 16hrs a day 7 days a week for the first 3 weeks.

lol
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ed-the-longest

[stevenho]

So it was cleared except it wasn't actually cleared?

Which part of the sentence "90% of vanilla raids were cleared in days, save for a few bugged or overtuned last bosses." do you have trouble comprehending?

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lol
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ed-the-longest

lol https://manaflask.com/articles/a-history-of-world-firsts-vanilla

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Also a nice necro thread to show how glorious and different it was almost a decade ago http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/626331-Content-cleared-and-people-stop-logging-in

[primalmatter]

Which part of the sentence "90% of vanilla raids were cleared in days, save for a few bugged or overtuned last bosses." do you have trouble comprehending?

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lol https://manaflask.com/articles/a-his...firsts-vanilla

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Also a nice necro thread to show how glorious and different it was almost a decade ago http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...top-logging-in

Today I learned 2/7 is 90%

[kary]

It's kinda not comparable, due to the way how gear was handled, the hours people raided, etc.
There were no split runs and you couldn't get toons geared in a reasonable amount of time due to the silly amount of drops per boss.

[stevenho]

Today you learned all of BWL except last boss was cleared in 2 days. Clearly you were clueless about this fact.

[Bonezerker]

Which part of the sentence "90% of vanilla raids were cleared in days, save for a few bugged or overtuned last bosses." do you have trouble comprehending?

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lol https://manaflask.com/articles/a-his...firsts-vanilla

Yeah, I've read it and it doesn't negate the fact that Naxxramas itself had multiple bosses that took longer to kill from the kill of the previous boss than it took Method to clear all of HFC Mythic