Wow Legion : PvP Everyone is Everyone

[The One Percent]

it's similar to how CM modes showed who was carried by gear

[bloodmoth13]

Skill reliant... in Legion? LMAO, they've pruned & dumbed everything and anything that requires skill to use.

Pruning doesnt make the game easier, all players have less tools, now its a matter of applying the limited tools you have in the right situations and covering for your weaknesses, which takes more skill imo than just pressing whatever counterbutton happens to be on your utility belt

[Deleted]

So lets take a look with your logic at pve:

So - Pve should also be about skill, not gear.
It shouldn't be about how many raids you've been in, or how many LFR's u've done if that's the case ( all depending on stage ).
It's exactly the same. The game has to be skill dependant ofcourse, but if you don't get any rewards, for progress and time spent put together, it doesn't give the same feeling.

Imagine being a super hardcore raider, and still run around with the same gear as a newly dinged. How good is that feeling? Yes your skilllevel is better, but no reward.

It's a mmo, people want and need rewards.
Yes there is prestige, but that is just not enough tbh, even tho i really like the prestige system.

Gear matters, and it should do, this is not a Moba game, this is not a FPS game, this is a MMORPG game.

That actually sounds fantastic!! Just think what blizz could do with PVE class balance and encounters. I would really love this! And the rewards, just like PVP, would be titles and cosmetics.

[Deleted]

I believe people are forgeting what is the MMORPG description and believeing they are playing a MOBA or FPS shooter for competitive purposes (ok for rated arenas).
RPGS are based on progression, rewards, adventures, social. Not street fighter fight stage model, select your character and it comes "done" for you.

For the PVE players saying it is cool cuz they will now try PVP its fine, because if i didnt have to get alot PVE gear for raiding i would also try to learn mechanics and kill bosses.

You are just forgetting that PvP IS competitive and doesn't really go to well with a classic (to be honest, outdated) RPG-model. So it actually is a good thing to separate those two things from each other. In PvP people play for the competition, and competition can only happen if the starting conditions are equal (or close to equal).

I personally like that change as i am more the PvP than the PvE type of player. This way it is more focused on the player vs player aspect and less on the gear vs gear aspect. And at least for me, playing against people with significantly worse gear than i have has been fun only for a very short time and grew old fast. The best fights have been the one where it got close in the end: one mistake, and i either survived with 10 hp or died before i could land the killing blow.

[Rikhart]

I´m feeling inclined to PVP, something i havent done in years, because of the really nice changes they made.

[ComputerNerd]

It's an RPG with multiple classes and specializations. For as "balanced" as some players and blizzard claims it to be, equalizing gear would only make it glaringly obvious how bad the imbalances are. Also you'll lose any sense that the gear you're working for is doing anything. The problem with pvp and the game in general is blizzard isn't doing their math and has a bad philosophy on how much they should increase those numbers when adding a new season/raid tier.

Removing the gear influence as much as blizzard are means they have this template system.
And that can be adjusted, in addition to the usual pvp-only ability fixes and PvP talents.
That allows a lot more options for tweaks which do not overlap with PvE.
It has the potential to be more balanced than before, but it seems you do not want that.
You are intent on it retaining something which penalises players late starting.
RPG for the sake of RPG at the detriment of gameplay or the experience of other players is rather selfish.

[Eleccybubb]

Because god forbid PvP should be about skill over gear right?

[Deleted]

I don't like the PVP system in Legion.

"Everyone now has a more equal footing with the removal with gear!" No. It's always been equal if you play any kind of higher end pvp because people will simply not be undergeared.

Ok, that goes for 5% of ALL PvP-players and content. What about equal footing for the rest of the 95%?

Theres no customisation, nothing. They've made the random BGs more equal kind of in exchange for removing gear progression which I personally enjoyed and gives me more incentie to pvp anyway. People are going to be pvping naked which completely ruins it for me too. Only mythical raiders will have an advantage which completely contradicts their overall attitude to pvp this expansion and is a massive fuck you to loyal pvp players.

You forget the bright side of it all: no more whining in forums from the "pro-gamer-side"that in random BGs (which is still the biggest part of instanced PvP) about those "ungeared plebs". And on the other side, no more people that pull down the own team on random-BGs.

Theres been nothing of value added to pvp for Legion ( I personally think theres been more taken away), only a talent progression which will be non existent as soon as you prestige and a couple of cosmetic arenas which do look nice but don't really add much.

The only thing of value that needed to be added in PvP has been: fun, for a lot of people. Like most people that are below 1800 rating (which is the vast majority).

[Sencha]

Skills matter more than gear. I welcome this change.

[Frogguh]

So lets take a look with your logic at pve:

So - Pve should also be about skill, not gear.
It shouldn't be about how many raids you've been in, or how many LFR's u've done if that's the case ( all depending on stage ).
It's exactly the same. The game has to be skill dependant ofcourse, but if you don't get any rewards, for progress and time spent put together, it doesn't give the same feeling.

Imagine being a super hardcore raider, and still run around with the same gear as a newly dinged. How good is that feeling? Yes your skilllevel is better, but no reward.

It's a mmo, people want and need rewards.
Yes there is prestige, but that is just not enough tbh, even tho i really like the prestige system.

Gear matters, and it should do, this is not a Moba game, this is not a FPS game, this is a MMORPG game.

Well let's talk about that, shall we?

Let's take four players. Player A is a "hardcore" PVE player. Player B is "hardcore" PVP. Player C is "casual" PVE, and Player D is "casual" PVP.

Player A wants to do Mythic raids, so he does lower-difficulty raids obtaining the gear required to be able to do Mythic level difficulty.
Player B wants to do Rated PVP, so he does lower-difficulty PVP until obtaining the honor gear, then begins farming Conquest.
Player C has no interest in Mythic and wants to do Normal raids and maybe PUGs, so he begins doing them.
Player D has no interest in Rated PVP and wants to do random bgs, so he begins doing them.

Player A plays enough Mythic content to farm a full set of gear. He can now more easily clear Mythic raids.
Player B plays enough Rated PVP to farm a full set of Conquest gear. He can now compete on equal footing with any PVP'er.
Player C plays enough Normal content to farm a full set of gear. He can now more easily clear Normal raids and is ready for Heroic if he desires.
Player D plays enough random bgs to farm a full set of Honor gear. However, he is screwed because despite his lack of interest in Rated PVP, he is forced to compete against Rated geared players. Unlike every other category of player, Player D - the PVP'er who has no interest in Rated play - is at a disadvantage IN HIS CHOSEN CONTENT. He is at a disadvantage because of his preferred progression path, and his play experience is soured. Unless, of course, random bgs quickly and efficiently reward Conquest points to get top-notch PVP gear, which defeats the purpose.

That is why comparing PVE progression to PVP competition fails on every level. Mythic level raiders do not increase the difficulty of Normal raids simply by obtaining gear, but Rated geared PVP'ers do increase the difficulty of random bgs. Casual raiders get to choose the difficulty they want, but casual PVP'ers are either forced to be at a disadvantage or are forced to participate in content they do not enjoy simply to be able to compete in the content they do enjoy.

And as far as the gear grind goes, ever raid tier unlocks new content and new power levels for raiders. A new PVP season is nothing but an arbitrary power nerf relative to the content, which stays the same. Raiders gain in power with their gear relative to content, and PVP'ers have to keep fighting back to where they already were.

That is why instanced PVP should have no gear difference whatsoever. It is not only more about competition - rather than progression, like PVE - but by virtue of having all PVP players pooled together in randoms, the experience of players who don't want to participate in arena or rbgs is affected negatively. Out in the world, it should be fair game - you got better gear than I do, so since I chose to be on a PVP server I better steer clear if I know what's good for me. But in my chosen content - random bgs - I should not be forced to participate in Rated PVP just to effectively compete, any more than a Normal raider should be forced to play Mythic.

[Nayami]

Personally, I can't wait for the PvP changes. Not saying that they're the best for the game, but I think that they're going in the right direction. Would love to see an option to modify our PvP stat templates, Eg: choosing to have more crit than haste, but lets see how it goes first when it hits live.

OT: I believe we have a PvP Q&A this week? Can someone tell me that exact date and time?

[ItachiZaku]

They did say they have improved the lvling as a healer potential. What do you want them to do let you do as much dps as a normal dps ? :/ why would anyone be a dps then ? your main is heals you will not be doing as much dmg as a main dps, deal with it.

Well, it's more to the point of not having a main spec weapon option (if you have to level as an off spec with artifact weapon).

[rda]

OT: I believe we have a PvP Q&A this week? Can someone tell me that exact date and time?

All I can find is this tweet from Holinka with no dates:

https://twitter.com/holinka/status/742476064752996352

The hashtags are cool until you realize that these clowns aren't much good for anything else and that they were actually serious about #AshranRules until everyone and their dog laughed at them.

[Letdown]

PvP is supposed to be competitive. Vertical progression diminishes competitive integrity. There's a reason why in League of Legends you don't see pros playing on a myriad level of accounts (or accounts without all runes unlocked) -- there's a reason why when a gun becomes OBJECTIVELY better in CS:GO there's riots over it.

Yes, in MOBAs there's, over the course of a match, a degree of vertical progression, but that's more comparable to saying kicking a field goal in American football is vertical progression. It's a scoring mechanism due to the binary state of victory/loss in a MOBA -- there is no "they destroyed our Nexus, we can destroy 2 back to win the game!"

Vertical progression in a MOBA is a first down.

The problem is vertical progression in PvP like WoW has had for the last few years is the equivalent of getting to start a football game with 4 touchdowns while the other team starts with 0, or starting a game of League of Legends with 10,000 gold to spend.

It hurts competitive integrity.

I, for one, will be PvPing for the first time since BC probably BECAUSE of the stat normalization.

[rda]

The problem is vertical progression in PvP like WoW has had for the last few years is the equivalent of getting to start a football game with 4 touchdowns while the other team starts with 0, or starting a game of League of Legends with 10,000 gold to spend.

It hurts competitive integrity.

I, for one, will be PvPing for the first time since BC probably BECAUSE of the stat normalization.

The progression you are talking about is *WORSE* in Legion than in WoD. The disparity is *MORE* severe, not less. Have fun PVPing.

[Letdown]

The progression you are talking about is *WORSE* in Legion than in WoD. The disparity is *MORE* severe, not less. Have fun PVPing.

That just simply hasn't been what I've experienced at all in testing, nor does it make sense to me that it would be worse on paper.

PvP talents aren't nearly as miserable to grind out as gear has been for the last couple of expansions, and I at least feel like I am able to compete in that grinding process now rather than watching me hit for sub-10k while I get hit for 200k+.

Unless you're talking about the templating being off on the PTR right now in particular? I am confused.

[rda]

That just simply hasn't been what I've experienced at all in testing, nor does it make sense to me that it would be worse on paper.

PvP talents aren't nearly as miserable to grind out as gear has been for the last couple of expansions, and I at least feel like I am able to compete in that grinding process now rather than watching me hit for sub-10k while I get hit for 200k+.

Unless you're talking about the templating being off on the PTR right now in particular? I am confused.

Read the thread.

The gear differences are higher in Legion (yeah, yeah, ilvl differences are scaled down, but there is no ilvl cap, so do the math and find out that the differences are - surprise - higher, not lower) and the gear gap doesn't reduce with time (for 99% of the players).

[Letdown]

Read the thread.

The gear differences are higher in Legion (yeah, yeah, ilvl differences are scaled down, but there is no ilvl cap, so do the math and find out that the differences are - surprise - higher, not lower) and the gear gap doesn't reduce with time (for 99% of the players).

But they're not higher at all. Unless you're talking about in the scenario where someone is full titanforged (lol) against a brand new 110, which would still be a lower gap than currently exists between a Conquest-geared PvPer and an ungeared PvPer?

Like where are you getting your numbers from because that's not how math works to my knowledge. 50% > 10%.

[rda]

PS:

PvP talents aren't nearly as miserable to grind out as gear has been for the last couple of expansions, and I at least feel like I am able to compete in that grinding process now rather than watching me hit for sub-10k while I get hit for 200k+.

What?? You haven't been PVPing lately. Like, in the last few years.

[Hexxidecimal]

Read the thread.

The gear differences are higher in Legion (yeah, yeah, ilvl differences are scaled down, but there is no ilvl cap, so do the math and find out that the differences are - surprise - higher, not lower) and the gear gap doesn't reduce with time (for 99% of the players).

...yeah...no.