Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[fallenangel-succ]

Nowhere near strong enough to be worth the talent investment just to do that. To take Abundance and SoTF to get Swiftmend/Regrowth, you're giving up
- Cenarion Ward - also a 30 second CD that does nearly as much total healing as SoTF - Regrowth when you factor in the synergy with Flourish every second cast.
- Incarnation, which can be a lifesaver, or Germination, which can play even further into the mastery stacking you'd want to do in a 5 man.
- Requires both the Living Seed and HT/Regrowth artifact traits to be anywhere close to on par with CW, which is a huge waste of artifact traits that you wouldn't otherwise take in a 5 man build (because the Tranq major trait isn't nearly as strong in a 5 man - so you have no reason to go down that path).

And, you can't really take SoTF to use with Regrowth without taking Abundance either, because you also need Regrowth at a 100% crit rate for the SoTF-Regrowth option to be on par/reliable. All in all, it's just an atrociously inefficient use of talents and artifact power, and isn't really a viable option. If you're taking SoTF for a 5 man, you would take it because you want more supplemental raid healing on a shorter than 3 minute CD and you feel your single target is strong enough without a Rejuv heavy build. Sure, you can use SoTF with Regrowth occasionally as an emergency heal if you do that, but taking SoTF-Abundance for that purpose is terrible. CW alone will nearly match the emergency tank throughput without costing a second talent point, gutting your raid healing, and requiring otherwise undesirable artifact traits to be taken.

I agree that if you take SotF, you also should take Abundance - but I think that this is looking at it the wrong way for 5 mans. Abundance on its own makes Regrowth an efficient and predictable heal. SotF is one way to supplement that playstyle, but not required. I'm not sure Flourish is the go-to choice for 5 mans, certainly if you don't take CW. As such, I think it's viable to get Abundance on its own, for the boost it offers RG.

On that note, it is annoying that these different options are blocked due to the rigidness that is the artifact leveling processing. I still hope they'll reconsider and allow you to respec the artifact without cost (not in artifact power anyway...gold is fine). Being able to test out these different builds and selecting what works for you is a much better feeling than having to commit to a certain path (and that's before talking about different optimal builds for different scenarios).

Sorry if this was answered before - but was the mastery cap (on the number of hots) implemented? Is there any official word on that?
I can see this having a huge difference on 5 mans where it is pretty trivial to have LB, RJ, RG, EF and SB all active on the tank, with pretty high uptime from WG as well.

[Tiberria]

No - there is no mastery cap implemented yet.

I don't see how Flourish doesn't stay the default talent with or without CW. Moment of Clarity doesn't do anything to buff throughput, just regen, and regen is rarely a limiting factor in 5 mans. Plus, Regrowth in general is not a particularly strong spell to be spamming - with or without Abundance and 100% Crit. Stonebark might see some play, but I can't see a significant use case for it. The reality is - our tank CD is already on a lower CD than every other healer's. Therefore, there is no way Mythic+ will be tuned around needing a tank CD more frequently than every 90 seconds. If you don't need the CD reduction to successfully complete the content, why not take something else that gives you more throughput/options. Not only that, but using Flourish with CW arguably adds about as much burst tank survivability as 1/3 more Ironbarks anyway. And, even if you don't take CW, it isn't like you won't have a bunch of HoT effects across the tank and other party members and a way to get Flourish to save you a lot of GCDs. I just see Flourish as the default talent across everything right now - the use cases of MoC and Stonebark are very narrow.

Also still not seeing any use for Abundance. Even at 100% Crit, Regrowth is both weak (behind other flash heals every at a guaranteed crit), doesn't scale well with gear (taking Abundance makes crit on your gear useless for that spell), and a very inefficient use of mana outside of OOC procs. It's not an efficient spell at all; even at 100% crit, Regrowth is around 35% less HPM than Rejuv and still less HPM than Healing Touch. If we use Abundance for anything, it will probably be for a faster Healing Touch cast time in situations where we need more baseline (i.e. not 30 sec CD burst) tank healing. If it comes down to Healing Touch spam, you'd be far better off parking your Resto Druid on the bench and bringing in any other healing spec though.

[theburned]

No - there is no mastery cap implemented yet.

I don't see how Flourish doesn't stay the default talent with or without CW. Moment of Clarity doesn't do anything to buff throughput, just regen, and regen is rarely a limiting factor in 5 mans. Plus, Regrowth in general is not a particularly strong spell to be spamming - with or without Abundance and 100% Crit. Stonebark might see some play, but I can't see a significant use case for it. The reality is - our tank CD is already on a lower CD than every other healer's. Therefore, there is no way Mythic+ will be tuned around needing a tank CD more frequently than every 90 seconds. If you don't need the CD reduction to successfully complete the content, why not take something else that gives you more throughput/options. Not only that, but using Flourish with CW arguably adds about as much burst tank survivability as 1/3 more Ironbarks anyway. And, even if you don't take CW, it isn't like you won't have a bunch of HoT effects across the tank and other party members and a way to get Flourish to save you a lot of GCDs. I just see Flourish as the default talent across everything right now - the use cases of MoC and Stonebark are very narrow.

I agree that MoC is shit, generally because you got unlimited mana in 5 mans, certain boss fights it might be okay, helya 10 tyrannical being one of them.
Your arguement against stonebark works in raids, is totally irrelevant for mythic+, testing how far you can push, also affixes clearly makes it far superior to others, necrotic for one, 26% reduced damage over longer lasting hots, when there is a healing reduction and on top of that it ramps up over time. Unless you want to tell your tank to stop and wait for your IB after every pull then you need this talent. It's not particularly good in your pitty lvl 3 mythic+, but when you're pushing 10-15 its definitely a valuable talent, especially at a point where flourish adds very little in terms of single target burst throughput, sure it's good sustained aoe, but I would say HoV + neltharions lair would be the only choices. Also you can play a lot more aggressive with your IBs, putting them up on mob pulls, when generally a tank won't waste his AM while also waiting around for stuns. Also a CW up won't help your tank a lot when hes getting trucked by 2,7m hits.

Also don't get me wrong Flourish is still good in 5man for exactly what it's good at, sustained healing.

[Deleted]

The short logs make it difficult to draw any real conclusions, but the overall results are concerning. In particular, it seems that we are behind Shaman, Holy Priests and Mistweavers in throughput currently. Paladins seem all over the place, sometimes near the top and sometimes at the bottom. That's a big issue, because those are the specs we will be directly competing with for raid viability. You've got 4 healing spots for 6 specs, and if we are doing weaker throughput than all except Disc (and Disc isn't even intended to do 100% of the HPS of pure healers), we don't have a lot of use.

Particularly worrying is the fact that we appear to be getting smashed by Shaman across all logs that I've seen. These short logs are skewed by the healing that raid CDs do, but Tranq heals for a lot more at first tier gear levels than HTT does. If Shaman are ahead of Druids even on <2 minute logs that are skewed by Tranq/HTT usage, they are highly likely to be way ahead on sustained logs. That also doesn't even address the fact that we don't have the type of game changing utility (raid wide health buff or free battle rez every 5 minutes) that Shaman bring, so we really can't be doing less healing than them period to have anywhere near the same value.

Did you even look at the fights? Half of these logs the druid is dead on the floor for atleast 20s in which the other accumulates almost all the difference in healing done. One log the druid didnt tranq while the shaman used HTT, which accounts for almost all the difference in healing. Other things such as actually testing different setups, which are not optimal, for example one of these druids playing Renewal, are also completely overlooked by you. Next time you whine about how weak your class is based on logs, atleast take 10 minutes out of your time to look at them.

[Tiberria]

Did you even look at the fights? Half of these logs the druid is dead on the floor for atleast 20s in which the other accumulates almost all the difference in healing done. One log the druid didnt tranq while the shaman used HTT, which accounts for almost all the difference in healing. Other things such as actually testing different setups, which are not optimal, for example one of these druids playing Renewal, are also completely overlooked by you. Next time you whine about how weak your class is based on logs, atleast take 10 minutes out of your time to look at them.

I wasn't even referring to one log in specific - I was referring to the general view across several logs, both those that were posted and others that I digged up through WCL (just by going to the All Logs view while raid testing was ongoing. And, obviously, I wasn't counting logs where one healer was dead half the fight or the Druid didn't Tranq

[tein]

There are basically 2 distinct builds/sets of talent choices to go with.
SoTF/WG build:
Stat priority - Haste > Crit > Vers > Mastery

Rejuv build:
Stat priority - Mastery > Haste > Crit > Vers

Is that general consensus about stat priorities of the WG build? I mean that crit will be more efficient than mastery? And what about combining: SotF+WG to heal the raid (haste) and stacking mastery on tanks and those who has debuffs and such stuff?

About 5 men - I believe we are losing our tank saving combo Tree+Regrowth, this spell with hot part is so terrible... So just group cd.

[Tiberria]

Is that general consensus about stat priorities of the WG build? I mean that crit will be more efficient than mastery? And what about combining: SotF+WG to heal the raid (haste) and stacking mastery on tanks and those who has debuffs and such stuff?

About 5 men - I believe we are losing our tank saving combo Tree+Regrowth, this spell with hot part is so terrible... So just group cd.

I mean - mastery is behind every other stat until you have 2 or more HoT effects on a target. With WG in particular, Mastery will be less valuable than Crit until 67% or more of your WG healing is on targets with more than 1 HoT effect on them. I don't think it's all that likely that you're going to have enough Rejuv coverage to exceed that threshold, given that using the WG build means you're throttling your WG usage to begin with (i.e. you can't afford to cast 6 Rejuvs for every WG). The only situation where I might see Mastery pulling up to being the second best stat in a WG build is if it's a stacked fight and you take Spring Blossoms. In that situation, you probably have enough HoT coverage on WG targets to pull Mastery ahead. It's definitely going to be the weakest stat if you take Inner Peace though, given Mastery does a very poor job and buffing Tranq and Inner Peace itself reduces your overall HoT coverage (no Cultivation or Spring Blossoms).

As far as stacking mastery for tank healing and still going with a WG build, I think it's a terrible idea, because you are using your talents to go in one direction and then spending your secondary stats in a way that works against your talent investments. You'd be far better off deciding what healing style you want/need to have going in and going all in one direction or the other, because going for a balanced build just results in being weak at everything.

[tein]

Thanks. I understand, what you are saying, but I still have some doubts - it's so unusual to prefer crit over mastery. It's so unreliable stat.. Math is math, but so many variables. I think I'll stop with the thought that I need loot with haste and that's all for the few first monthes. And then it will be possible already to gather some statistics. I won't be surprised if we'll be having furious discussions about the second stat like it was in MoP about the only true haste cap

[Tiberria]

Thanks. I understand, what you are saying, but I still have some doubts - it's so unusual to prefer crit over mastery. It's so unreliable stat.. Math is math, but so many variables. I think I'll stop with the thought that I need loot with haste and that's all for the few first monthes. And then it will be possible already to gather some statistics. I won't be surprised if we'll be having furious discussions about the second stat like it was in MoP about the only true haste cap

The thing is - math aside - mastery is even a more unreliable stat unless you are going for a build that lets you have significant mastery/hot coverage. Instead of the RNG of whether something crits or not, you have the RNG of whether someone that you want/need to output immediate healing on has enough HoT effects on them for it to be worth spending mana/GCDs on them. Plus, so much of our healing comprises of large amounts of small HoT ticks making the RNG of crit end up reverting to the mean and evening out very quickly.

[fallenangel-succ]

Lets run some numbers on RG, assuming a full artifact tree with no relics.
A non crit RG will heal for 214.8 * 1.1 (blessing of the world tree)=236.28% SP.
A crit RG will heal fo 214.8 * 2 (crit modifier) * 1.8 (living seed + seeds of the world tree) * 1.1 = 850.608% SP
This ignores the rather minimal hot portion of RG, which mostly contributes to mastery.
A crit RG is therefor 3.6 as strong as a non-crit one.
Assuming 15% baseline crit (not sure if this is a reasonable number), RG without abundance would average to 697.026% SP, whereas with abundance this naturally goes up to 850.608, or 22% boost. This gets better the lower your base crit is, assuming abundance caps it to 100% regardless. For example with 10% base crit the boost is 27%.

Lets compare this to Healing Surge. They both cost practically the same.
A non crit HS will heal for 450 * 1.06 (grace of the sea) * 1.15 (buffeting waves) = 548.55 SP
A crit HS will heal for twice that, or 1097.1 SP.
The crit % of HS is somewhat tricky to compute, as it depends on the uptime of Tidal Waves as well as talent choices. I'll assume tidal waves for every 3rd HS, then without crashing waves the average HS will have +20% to its crit modifier. Assuming 15% base crit, this puts the average HS at 740.54% SP.

This puts RG and HS at the same ballpark, although it doesn't factor in mastery.

Lets go back to druids. Disregarding mana costs, the HPCT of CW and an RG with abundance vary by 200% SP. 1 CW and 1 non-abundance
RG are 50% ahead of 2 RG with abundance. Therefore, ignoring hot duration extensions, abundance overtakes CW once you cast more than two RG in a 30 second window - which is of course going to happen in a dungeon.
Lets assume we flourish on the CD and it always catches CW, and furthermore assume we use CW on CD (the latter is highly unlikely as it will increase CW overhealing). To overcome the free CW (GCD wise; assuming the non-CW build also flourishes at the same times), would take 10 RG casts per minute - again, a reasonable number for dungeons. This is measured by 2 RG taking the place of the 2 CW, and the other 8 RG being stronger.
Finally, CW also boost mastery. With 30% uptime (assuming flourish) on a target with multiple hots already (the tank, which will nearly always be the target of CW), the effect is rather marginal.

Now, if you toss in the legendary wrists - http://legion.wowhead.com/item=13709...aya&bonus=1811 - things change.

I also wanted to compare HT and RG under abundance. Lets assume 4 RJ targets which puts HT at the GCD.
A non crit HT heals for 360 * 1.1 = 396% SP. A crit one would heal for 1425.6% SP.
With 15% crit chance, this puts HT at 550.44% SP. The HPM of HT in this case is 1.3 times better than RG, which means that at least numbers wise, it is worth casting for periods of low damage, but the healing is very swingy. At 0% crit it has slightly less HPM than RG, for example.

[Tiberria]

Lets run some numbers on RG, assuming a full artifact tree with no relics.
A non crit RG will heal for 214.8 * 1.1 (blessing of the world tree)=236.28% SP.
A crit RG will heal fo 214.8 * 2 (crit modifier) * 1.8 (living seed + seeds of the world tree) * 1.1 = 850.608% SP
This ignores the rather minimal hot portion of RG, which mostly contributes to mastery.
A crit RG is therefor 3.6 as strong as a non-crit one.
Assuming 15% baseline crit (not sure if this is a reasonable number), RG without abundance would average to 697.026% SP, whereas with abundance this naturally goes up to 850.608, or 22% boost. This gets better the lower your base crit is, assuming abundance caps it to 100% regardless. For example with 10% base crit the boost is 27%.

Lets compare this to Healing Surge. They both cost practically the same.
A non crit HS will heal for 450 * 1.06 (grace of the sea) * 1.15 (buffeting waves) = 548.55 SP
A crit HS will heal for twice that, or 1097.1 SP.
The crit % of HS is somewhat tricky to compute, as it depends on the uptime of Tidal Waves as well as talent choices. I'll assume tidal waves for every 3rd HS, then without crashing waves the average HS will have +20% to its crit modifier. Assuming 15% base crit, this puts the average HS at 740.54% SP.

This puts RG and HS at the same ballpark, although it doesn't factor in mastery.

Lets go back to druids. Disregarding mana costs, the HPCT of CW and an RG with abundance vary by 200% SP. 1 CW and 1 non-abundance
RG are 50% ahead of 2 RG with abundance. Therefore, ignoring hot duration extensions, abundance overtakes CW once you cast more than two RG in a 30 second window - which is of course going to happen in a dungeon.
Lets assume we flourish on the CD and it always catches CW, and furthermore assume we use CW on CD (the latter is highly unlikely as it will increase CW overhealing). To overcome the free CW (GCD wise; assuming the non-CW build also flourishes at the same times), would take 10 RG casts per minute - again, a reasonable number for dungeons. This is measured by 2 RG taking the place of the 2 CW, and the other 8 RG being stronger.
Finally, CW also boost mastery. With 30% uptime (assuming flourish) on a target with multiple hots already (the tank, which will nearly always be the target of CW), the effect is rather marginal.

Now, if you toss in the legendary wrists - http://legion.wowhead.com/item=13709...aya&bonus=1811 - things change.

I also wanted to compare HT and RG under abundance. Lets assume 4 RJ targets which puts HT at the GCD.
A non crit HT heals for 360 * 1.1 = 396% SP. A crit one would heal for 1425.6% SP.
With 15% crit chance, this puts HT at 550.44% SP. The HPM of HT in this case is 1.3 times better than RG, which means that at least numbers wise, it is worth casting for periods of low damage, but the healing is very swingy. At 0% crit it has slightly less HPM than RG, for example.

It's a logical fallacy to compute Regrowth's throughput by giving Living Seed credit for doing 100% of its theoretical throughput. We have never come close to getting the full effective value out of Living Seed in the 4 expansions since it's been added because of its mechanics. For a more realistic comparison, you would want to cut the Living Seed throughput numbers in about half; it's not likely it will be more than 50% effective.

It's also just flat out wrong to only give Healing Surge a 15% assumed Crit rate. With a full artifact, you either have +30% Crit to Healing Surge with Tidal Waves without Bottomless Depths or +45% with it. Even in a worst case scenario, you're gaining a Tidal Waves proc every 6 seconds - and a hell of a lot more often if you take Echo of the Elements or weave Chain Heal in at all. You're going to have Tidal Waves up for Healing Surge a hell of a lot more often than every third cast. The only scenario where it would only happen that often is if you literally do nothing else but cast Riptide on CD and spam Healing Surge. That scenario is not going to happen for a number of reasons - one is that you have to maintain other spells - HST, HR, Gift of the Queen, Wellspring if you take it plus all the cooldowns, and you're going to be weaving Chain Heals in 99% of the time too. Another is, you absolutely can not spam Healing Surge or any other Flash Heal for 75% of your GCDs without going OOM in probably 30 seconds. Realistically, you probably are going to have Tidal Waves up for 80%+ of your HS casts. If HPM is an issue at all - you probably just won't cast it period without a Tidal Waves proc. Therefore, you are understating the value of Healing Surge by at least 20% by assuming 1/3 casts has Tidal Waves up.

When you factor in a sensible assumption for the effectiveness of Living Seed and Tidal Waves proc utilization, Regrowth is nowhere near "the same ball park" as Healing Surge.

- - - Updated - - -

Lets go back to druids. Disregarding mana costs, the HPCT of CW and an RG with abundance vary by 200% SP. 1 CW and 1 non-abundance
RG are 50% ahead of 2 RG with abundance. Therefore, ignoring hot duration extensions, abundance overtakes CW once you cast more than two RG in a 30 second window - which is of course going to happen in a dungeon.
Lets assume we flourish on the CD and it always catches CW, and furthermore assume we use CW on CD (the latter is highly unlikely as it will increase CW overhealing). To overcome the free CW (GCD wise; assuming the non-CW build also flourishes at the same times), would take 10 RG casts per minute - again, a reasonable number for dungeons. This is measured by 2 RG taking the place of the 2 CW, and the other 8 RG being stronger.
Finally, CW also boost mastery. With 30% uptime (assuming flourish) on a target with multiple hots already (the tank, which will nearly always be the target of CW), the effect is rather marginal.

You can't completely disregard mana costs - even during 5 mans. It leads to incorrect conclusions. Using Regrowth 10 times a minute will consume nearly 40% of your mana on its own every minute. Meanwhile, CW costs 1/11 as much mana. Even with the shorter fights in 5 mans, some boss fights and trash pulls last longer than 3 minutes, and spamming Regrowth to that extent will pressure your mana pool/force more drinking than you otherwise would have to do.

[theburned]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&fight=19

New logs, a bit more valid data here, and to me it seems like resto druids are looking quite fine, with hpala being pretty broken.

star augur I would not consider valid data due to no healing basically, Most of the time I was dpsing so you can get some data on resto druid dps there aswell.

[fallenangel-succ]

It's a logical fallacy to compute Regrowth's throughput by giving Living Seed credit for doing 100% of its theoretical throughput. We have never come close to getting the full effective value out of Living Seed in the 4 expansions since it's been added because of its mechanics. For a more realistic comparison, you would want to cut the Living Seed throughput numbers in about half; it's not likely it will be more than 50% effective.

It's also just flat out wrong to only give Healing Surge a 15% assumed Crit rate. With a full artifact, you either have +30% Crit to Healing Surge with Tidal Waves without Bottomless Depths or +45% with it. Even in a worst case scenario, you're gaining a Tidal Waves proc every 6 seconds - and a hell of a lot more often if you take Echo of the Elements or weave Chain Heal in at all. You're going to have Tidal Waves up for Healing Surge a hell of a lot more often than every third cast. The only scenario where it would only happen that often is if you literally do nothing else but cast Riptide on CD and spam Healing Surge. That scenario is not going to happen for a number of reasons - one is that you have to maintain other spells - HST, HR, Gift of the Queen, Wellspring if you take it plus all the cooldowns, and you're going to be weaving Chain Heals in 99% of the time too. Another is, you absolutely can not spam Healing Surge or any other Flash Heal for 75% of your GCDs without going OOM in probably 30 seconds. Realistically, you probably are going to have Tidal Waves up for 80%+ of your HS casts. If HPM is an issue at all - you probably just won't cast it period without a Tidal Waves proc. Therefore, you are understating the value of Healing Surge by at least 20% by assuming 1/3 casts has Tidal Waves up.

When you factor in a sensible assumption for the effectiveness of Living Seed and Tidal Waves proc utilization, Regrowth is nowhere near "the same ball park" as Healing Surge.

It's simply wrong to assume the worst for one case and the best for another. There is no scenario where LS has more overhealing then CW - unless you purposely push the CD on CW, and then it loses effectiveness. Yes spells will overheal, but LS is better than other crit mechanics in that it is actually split into 2 - one the direct heal and the other the damage proc. Hence it will overheal /less/ than an equivalent normal direct crit, not more. The fact that you insist on applying a penalty to it alone is not backed by any reasoning.
LS has traditionally been a low % of your healing because you don't cast a lot of RG. Yet in dungeons, you will. It also never was 80% of the heal.
The usage of CH in dungeons is highly questionable, and really depends on group composition and on actual need to, you know, heal 4 out of 5 targets. If you think shamans will cast HW when they don't have TW proc, then they'll be casting a 630% SP heal in 2.5s. HT w/ abundance is so much better than that it's not even funny (40% more HPCT).
Quoting a 10% proc as something that will dramatically change the number of riptide casts also doesn't make any sense. Lets look at the following scenario. 0% haste, the shaman follows the following algorithm:
1. cast riptide if not on cd.
2. otherwise cast HS.
This will result, over a sample of 10K GCDs, at something like 2.7K casts of riptide (simulated result), compared to the 2.5K you'd get with no CD reset chance. This means that HS will be affected by TW 37% of the time. 4% my friend is not "hell of a lot more". But words are easy to throw around.
I didn't say HS has 15% crit rate. I said, assume a baseline of 15% critrate for the shaman. Then factor in the bonus crit rate based on TW %, and you get the actual average crit % of HS.
HR is close to HS in terms of MPCT (mana per cast time). Wellspring costs twice as much as HS. Neither will stop you from going OOM. Gift of the Queen is one GCD (+) every 45 secs. HST is once every 30. You have to fill your GCDs somehow, and I sure hope it's not with HW.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't completely disregard mana costs - even during 5 mans. It leads to incorrect conclusions. Using Regrowth 10 times a minute will consume nearly 40% of your mana on its own every minute. Meanwhile, CW costs 1/11 as much mana. Even with the shorter fights in 5 mans, some boss fights and trash pulls last longer than 3 minutes, and spamming Regrowth to that extent will pressure your mana pool/force more drinking than you otherwise would have to do.

It's not like you'll miraculously cast 10 more regrowths per minutes - those are heals you're going to cast anyway; I just said that if you cast 10 or more RG in a minute, Abundance would take over CW for healing.
In the ~48 GCDs you have per minute (assuming 20% haste), you'll cast:
- 6 LB
- 2 SM
- 1 Flourish
- at most, 17 RJ
- 6 WG (maybe)

This leaves you 16 GCDs open. And that was with very liberal numbers of RJ and WG. Even if you use slightly more than half of those to cast RG, you're better off with Abundance. If you worry about OOMing but still want to have a somewhat decent output, then Abundance offers you a fast HT.

[Tiberria]

It's simply wrong to assume the worst for one case and the best for another. There is no scenario where LS has more overhealing then CW - unless you purposely push the CD on CW, and then it loses effectiveness. Yes spells will overheal, but LS is better than other crit mechanics in that it is actually split into 2 - one the direct heal and the other the damage proc. Hence it will overheal /less/ than an equivalent normal direct crit, not more. The fact that you insist on applying a penalty to it alone is not backed by any reasoning.
LS has traditionally been a low % of your healing because you don't cast a lot of RG. Yet in dungeons, you will. It also never was 80% of the heal.
The usage of CH in dungeons is highly questionable, and really depends on group composition and on actual need to, you know, heal 4 out of 5 targets. If you think shamans will cast HW when they don't have TW proc, then they'll be casting a 630% SP heal in 2.5s. HT w/ abundance is so much better than that it's not even funny (40% more HPCT).
Quoting a 10% proc as something that will dramatically change the number of riptide casts also doesn't make any sense. Lets look at the following scenario. 0% haste, the shaman follows the following algorithm:
1. cast riptide if not on cd.
2. otherwise cast HS.
This will result, over a sample of 10K GCDs, at something like 2.7K casts of riptide (simulated result), compared to the 2.5K you'd get with no CD reset chance. This means that HS will be affected by TW 37% of the time. 4% my friend is not "hell of a lot more". But words are easy to throw around.
I didn't say HS has 15% crit rate. I said, assume a baseline of 15% critrate for the shaman. Then factor in the bonus crit rate based on TW %, and you get the actual average crit % of HS.
HR is close to HS in terms of MPCT (mana per cast time). Wellspring costs twice as much as HS. Neither will stop you from going OOM. Gift of the Queen is one GCD (+) every 45 secs. HST is once every 30. You have to fill your GCDs somehow, and I sure hope it's not with HW.

- - - Updated - - -



It's not like you'll miraculously cast 10 more regrowths per minutes - those are heals you're going to cast anyway; I just said that if you cast 10 or more RG in a minute, Abundance would take over CW for healing.
In the ~48 GCDs you have per minute (assuming 20% haste), you'll cast:
- 6 LB
- 2 SM
- 1 Flourish
- at most, 17 RJ
- 6 WG (maybe)

This leaves you 16 GCDs open. And that was with very liberal numbers of RJ and WG. Even if you use slightly more than half of those to cast RG, you're better off with Abundance. If you worry about OOMing but still want to have a somewhat decent output, then Abundance offers you a fast HT.

- "There is no scenario where Living Seed does more overhealing than CW" - Totally and absolutely false. You have control over when you use CW, and are only going to use it on a <100% HP tank that needs burst healing. If that isn't happening close enough to every 30 seconds, there isn't enough healing to be done for any of this to matter. Also, what you're forgetting is that Living Seed pops 100% of its healing as soon as the target takes even 1 HP of damage. If the tank has a LS on him and takes a tiny 1 HP hit (as an exaggerated example), the LS is 99% overheal. With CW, it's a 6 second HoT. Plus, you wouldn't use CW unless its needed in the first place. Unless you're blindly hitting CW on CD, there's no way it doesn't have way more actual effectiveness to theoretical effectiveness than Living Seed does.

- Re Healing Wave without Tidal Waves vs Healing Touch with Abundance. Healing Wave heals for a full 40% more than Healing Touch baseline. If you're comparing spells with 0 haste (i.e. your 2.5 second HW comment), 1.5 seconds is the minimum effective cast time you can drop HT to (lower drops is sub GCD). Guess what? HT at a 1.5 second cast time is almost exactly the same HPS as HW with a 2.5 second cast time. It's also objectively worse because you're spending a lot more mana to gain the same HPS level. You're also spending a talent (and the maintenance cost of keeping enough Rejuvs up) to get it to that point, while the Shaman gets that as a free baseline state. In no way is HT/Abundance "so much better than HW without Tidal Waves it's not even funny" - it's worse in every way outright.

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&fight=19

New logs, a bit more valid data here, and to me it seems like resto druids are looking quite fine, with hpala being pretty broken.

star augur I would not consider valid data due to no healing basically, Most of the time I was dpsing so you can get some data on resto druid dps there aswell.

Pally is probably looking that broken because he is stacking mastery heavily, and it looks like your raid was mostly stacked that entire pull. I don't know how Pallies can be properly balanced for stacked vs spread fights with their mastery design.

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At any rate, we do not have a Resto Shaman at all and I am seriously seriously considering going back Shaman for Legion. What reasons do I have to talk myself out of it - especially given the likelihood that we will not otherwise end up having a Shaman in the comp.

[theburned]

Pally is probably looking that broken because he is stacking mastery heavily, and it looks like your raid was mostly stacked that entire pull. I don't know how Pallies can be properly balanced for stacked vs spread fights with their mastery design.

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At any rate, we do not have a Resto Shaman at all and I am seriously seriously considering going back Shaman for Legion. What reasons do I have to talk myself out of it - especially given the likelihood that we will not otherwise end up having a Shaman in the comp.

It was a melee group and a ranged group, and he was not running with beacon of the lightbringer so he couldn't have been in both.
Most of the healing on krosus was tank healing, so I guess we'll just have to deal with holy palas being tank healers.

as for resto vs resto I'd say you have to look at your raid comp and see wheter or not you need more raid cds, and if you have enough spread healing.

[Deleted]

It was a melee group and a ranged group, and he was not running with beacon of the lightbringer so he couldn't have been in both.
Most of the healing on krosus was tank healing, so I guess we'll just have to deal with holy palas being tank healers.

as for resto vs resto I'd say you have to look at your raid comp and see wheter or not you need more raid cds, and if you have enough spread healing.

Well if you look at the longer logs, you see that the pala is also completely oom at something like 2.30 (just look at the two longes wipes), while you had plenty mana as Druid (25-70%). You could have pretty sure similar HPS with being oom at the sime time. The Pala never used Holy light, only Flash of Light, so I don't think the HPS and healing done here is a fair comparison. Fight will take longer than 2min 45.

I am honestly more impressed with the 3min 02 wipe, where you had as the druid 351k eHPS and 70% mana left.

[fallenangel-succ]

- "There is no scenario where Living Seed does more overhealing than CW" - Totally and absolutely false. You have control over when you use CW, and are only going to use it on a <100% HP tank that needs burst healing. If that isn't happening close enough to every 30 seconds, there isn't enough healing to be done for any of this to matter. Also, what you're forgetting is that Living Seed pops 100% of its healing as soon as the target takes even 1 HP of damage. If the tank has a LS on him and takes a tiny 1 HP hit (as an exaggerated example), the LS is 99% overheal. With CW, it's a 6 second HoT. Plus, you wouldn't use CW unless its needed in the first place. Unless you're blindly hitting CW on CD, there's no way it doesn't have way more actual effectiveness to theoretical effectiveness than Living Seed does.

- Re Healing Wave without Tidal Waves vs Healing Touch with Abundance. Healing Wave heals for a full 40% more than Healing Touch baseline. If you're comparing spells with 0 haste (i.e. your 2.5 second HW comment), 1.5 seconds is the minimum effective cast time you can drop HT to (lower drops is sub GCD). Guess what? HT at a 1.5 second cast time is almost exactly the same HPS as HW with a 2.5 second cast time. It's also objectively worse because you're spending a lot more mana to gain the same HPS level. You're also spending a talent (and the maintenance cost of keeping enough Rejuvs up) to get it to that point, while the Shaman gets that as a free baseline state. In no way is HT/Abundance "so much better than HW without Tidal Waves it's not even funny" - it's worse in every way outright.

I literally said it in the next few words after the ones you chose to quote - "unless you purposely push the CD on CW, and then it loses effectiveness". I didn't say it's a bad idea to do so; of course hitting CW blindly is pointless. But that means that the uptime won't be as high as the theoretical CD suggests. As for LS overhealing, just look at the logs linked here. 20% overheal, lower than every other heal including SM. This was with Prosperity, as can seen by the usage of SM. So can't compare to CW.

Now lets talk HW. I posted numbers; you post hyperbole. I used 0 haste because it doesn't matter. If both characters have 20% haste, and RJ is up on 4 targets, then the GCD reduction will enable both characters to cast 20% more spells; It's just that HW will cast at 2.083s and HT will cast at 1.25. Hence haste will affect both in the same manner and can be ignored for purposes of HPS. Seeing as haste is in the top 2 stats for druids, I find it likely the druid will have more; but lets ignore that.
I'll repost; if you find an error in the numbers, point it out.
A non crit HT heals for 360 * 1.1 = 396% SP. A crit one would heal for 1425.6% SP. With 15% crit chance, this puts HT at 550.44% SP.
A non crit HW will heal for 450 * 1.06 (grace of the sea) * 1.15 (buffeting waves) = 548.55% SP. With 15% crit chance, this puts HT at 630.83% SP.
Now lets factor in cast time. HT is 1.5; HW is 2.5. This puts the HPCT of HT at 366.96% and HW at 252.332%. Lo and behold, HT is 45% higher.

So I assume you ignored LS. You've then doing this for pages over pages, but sadly for you, it is in the game. Even with 0% crit, though, which totally eliminates LS, HT with Abundance has 264% SP HPCT whereas HW has 219.42%. HT is over 20% higher.

It is true that Abundance requires a few RJ to be effective. RJ is also the most efficient heal in terms of HPM due to the way it scales with haste (at 0% haste, it is only 14% better HPM than RG). Having a few up feels like a likely scenario.

[theburned]

Well if you look at the longer logs, you see that the pala is also completely oom at something like 2.30 (just look at the two longes wipes), while you had plenty mana as Druid (25-70%). You could have pretty sure similar HPS with being oom at the sime time. The Pala never used Holy light, only Flash of Light, so I don't think the HPS and healing done here is a fair comparison. Fight will take longer than 2min 45.

I am honestly more impressed with the 3min 02 wipe, where you had as the druid 351k eHPS and 70% mana left.

Another thing worth to mention is that I often tried to go for inner peace, which definitely feels worth it, but never actually got off that 2nd tranq.

with 9m tranqs it should be worth it as it allows you to get off 3 tranqs rather than 2 over the course of the fight, and also be a lot more impactful than the spring blossom.

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- "There is no scenario where Living Seed does more overhealing than CW" - Totally and absolutely false. You have control over when you use CW, and are only going to use it on a <100% HP tank that needs burst healing. If that isn't happening close enough to every 30 seconds, there isn't enough healing to be done for any of this to matter. Also, what you're forgetting is that Living Seed pops 100% of its healing as soon as the target takes even 1 HP of damage. If the tank has a LS on him and takes a tiny 1 HP hit (as an exaggerated example), the LS is 99% overheal. With CW, it's a 6 second HoT. Plus, you wouldn't use CW unless its needed in the first place. Unless you're blindly hitting CW on CD, there's no way it doesn't have way more actual effectiveness to theoretical effectiveness than Living Seed does.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=10

I disagree, a healing breakdown for a level 10 BRH.

edit: should probably cut off the last boss, because of heavily skewing numbers. Also should be noted that I have one relic which boosts living seed. In total its 45,5m healing that should have been healed by living seed, while actualy healing is 33,5m so 73% effectiveness rounded down to 70% is probably the number you are looking for.

[fallenangel-succ]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=10

I disagree, a healing breakdown for a level 10 BRH.

edit: should probably cut off the last boss, because of heavily skewing numbers. Also should be noted that I have one relic which boosts living seed. In total its 45,5m healing that should have been healed by living seed, while actualy healing is 33,5m so 73% effectiveness rounded down to 70% is probably the number you are looking for.

Thanks for the link, can you share some info on your secondary stats, artifact traits and talents? In particular crit%, I see it hovers at ~27%. Do you think this is a reasonable baseline, or more crit heavy than a standard set would have? Certainly Abundance loses a lot of appeal if it only adds 10-15% crit.

[theburned]

Thanks for the link, can you share some info on your secondary stats, artifact traits and talents? In particular crit%, I see it hovers at ~27%. Do you think this is a reasonable baseline, or more crit heavy than a standard set would have? Certainly Abundance loses a lot of appeal if it only adds 10-15% crit.

Working my way towards tranquil mind now, missing 2 points, also got persistence unlocked.
Stats generally comes from what gear I get from caches, mostly going for ilvl, due to hp being very important, aswell as crit being the best compromise between raiding and dungeons. Using a few mastery gems aswell, and crit feels like a must on rings for 75% damage reduction from proc.
As for talents, CW feels like a must, especially knowing my tank is quite greedy with AM charges when pulling mobs, Feral/guardian affinity for dps/survivability.
typhoon vs mighty bash both have their uses, probably should've gotten mighty bash this run.
SotF because it provides fairly good burst either to aoe through wild growth or it provides me with a good answer to tank healing in the window between CW ticking and being able to reapply it. Germination is a solid option, but as you can see my mastery isn't particularly high, 16.2%. I would say it looks very good for both HoV and neltharion's lair. Evandril is doing some works with it aswell using it most of the time.
Cultivation is basically a must in harder dungeons, SB works fine in 3s or lower, also it has less of a locational restrictions.
SB or flourish, mostly based on dungeons + affixes depending on what you feel is needed, with germination I'd say flourish is a must, also works some wonders whenever you dont believe the tank damage is crushing.

As for abundance I tried it out on high botanist, and I believe it will only ever be used in a raid setting, and mostly used it because I really didn't want to find a keybind for CW, which usually would be the preference, combined with ToL. As it was super mana heavy I often had over 10 rejuvs up though so my HT was instant cast. Can't ever see it being good in a dungeon, unless tank damage is fairly low.